Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

No one should be offering armchair diagnoses. There are several conditions which have symptoms of emotional dysregulation, of which several have been mentioned here. All of them can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist.

Op - she needs a proper psychiatric assessment as a first step. Once they've offered a diagnosis - or ruled diagnoses out - then you will all know the right steps to take with regards to therapy & any possible treatment.

I agree that you shouldn't be paying for her trip, although as an adult you can't stop her going if she self funds. I do wonder what would happen to her though if she lost it and became physically abusive while in Mexico - would she end up arrested?

At some point I recommend family therapy for all of you, too, although I don't think this can be done alongside another therapy any one of you might be receiving.

As to Christmas, you might want to consider a couple of cheap bits to give her something to open if you think it will stop Christmas being ruined for the rest of you - chocolates or a bath bomb.

I would explain to your daughter that you realise there is something underlying her outbursts and you all seem to have recognised she needs professional guidance, they will be horrible for her too, and that you're going to use the flight money to pay for a private psychiatric assessment. Explain carefully that its not because you think there's something seriously wrong with her - the prospect of psychiatrist appts can be frightening- but because they are the only ones who can diagnose things like neuordiversity and provide help & support. Boundaries are necessary though so you will be withdrawing financial assistance to the trip and she needs to realise her behaviour is unacceptable.

I think many people can recognise the desperate need behind provoking someone into a response, although few people will take it to her extremes.

This is horrific for all of you, don't put too much pressure on Christmas, just take it day by day and focus on having a nice lunch, then a nice film/walk/whatever rather than a nice day as a whole.

I would put the Mexico money into private therapy instead. That way the money is still spent on her, it will help her much sooner, and it shows her the consequences of her behaviour.

A halfway house, instead of saying she “ can’t” go on the trip, would be to withdraw the money for the flight.
So she hopefully sees that it’s her actions that have directly caused the consequences.
DD then has to consider how she might still fund it herself. She can still go - if she can fund it. That becomes her decision rather than yours.
(You could buy some online Xmas clothing vouchers in lieu for Christmas day)

Have you noticed any cyclical pattern to any of her behaviour…every 28 days / poss severe PMS contributing, for example?…if so, that might be helpful in terms of seeking treatment to alleviate some symptoms?

Clearly an awful lot of work needs to happen in your family to repair this situation but your short term issue is whether you should still facilitate her trip. The answer is no. I know it’s hard to deny her something she has looked forward to for so long but as children we learn about natural consequences. I’m not sure if she ever learnt this but it’s fundamental for her more than anyone. It’s your DH now but if this continues, it will be her partner and possibly children in the future. She cannot be rewarded despite her unacceptable behaviour.

I'm starting to find this whole thread a bit odd. You're really all still focusing on a potential trip to Mexico when things have escalated in your household to the point where 3 members of the family have been physically assaulted?! Surely all discussion about Mexico comes off the table for now while you figure out what on earth to do about the mess that you are all in...

I am autistic and I have two autistic DC. I mention this because we use different parenting techniques because conventional methods would just make everything spiral.

Unlike a PP, I couldn’t be certain from what you’ve written whether your DD is neurodivergent but it is worth pursuing as there are some possible indicators. However, even if she is ND, that doesn’t mean violence is ok. Lots of autistic people struggle with huge meltdowns without resorting to physically attacking others. If she is ND, I’d suspect there are other complicating factors such as a trauma response. She may not even be ND and instead have something like BPD. No one here can be sure but she does need a comprehensive assessment. It’ll be hard to deal with the behaviours unless you know what’s at the root - people like to think tough love is a magic cure-all but it isn’t.

In our household, we don’t do punishments. But we do have consequences for behaviour. That might sound like a pedantic quibble over words but the concepts are very different.

Punishments are sort of about revenge, telling someone they don’t deserve something because they’re “bad”.

Consequences are what happens as a direct result of behaviour, and are directly caused by the behaviour.

So in this case, punishment would be saying she can’t go to Mexico because she needs to lose something she loves to be taught a lesson.

The consequences would actually be the same but framed differently. So you would say that the behaviour is unacceptable and in order to address this and get her help, you will have to spend her flight money on private therapy. In addition, you can’t support her travelling to Mexico while her behaviour is out of control as there’s a real risk of her landing in serious trouble. So you won’t facilitate her travelling to Mexico in any way because it’s not safe for her to do so. You’re not seeking to make her feel bad - these are the natural consequences of her violent, out of control behaviour and what you need to do to keep her safe and get her help. And you need to make it clear it’s not a punishment even though it might feel like one, and you need to explain this is about protecting and supporting her through a very serious issue.

Even if her behaviours are caused by mental health problems or undiagnosed neurodivergence I don’t think her actions should be free of consequences. She won’t like it but you’re not punishing her - she’s just facing the consequences of her own actions, just like everyone has to do - including us neurodivergent folk.

This. I'm really surprised OP is not worried about the boyfriend. He deserves to be treated better.

He shouldn't be in a relationship, let alone go on holiday, with someone who thinks it's okay to have screaming arguments and calls him names. Poor boy.

On the other hand, perhaps a spell in Mexican prison will do her good.

lots of women are misdiagnosed as having borderline personality disorder when actually they have a female presentation of autism. I’m in my 30s and spent my whole adult life thinking I had BPD, (I sound very similar to your daughter and whilst have physically lashed out at partners I never have with family) when actually I have ASD. Sounds more like she’s had an autism meltdown to me.
Something to look into definitely.
for what it’s worth I agree with not paying for flights but allowing her to save and pay to go herself if she wishes

I think your DH is right to withdraw the contribution for the Mexico trip but not in wanting to control whether she goes or not with financial threats which would impact on her education if carried out.

Her behaviour-pattern of behaviour- is not OK and her father being far from ideal when she was growing up doesn't change that, might be part of the reason but it is not an excuse. Unless it is addressed she runs the risk of losing it with someone who will not accept it and she ends up with a criminal record or seriously hurt herself.

She needs to engage with help and putting as much available money towards that as possible would benefit her much more in the long run than paying for flights.

This is such a good strategy, but it doesn’t sound like the OP has much choice - from what she says, it doesn’t sound like she can pay for it if her husband says no, whether that's because she hasn't got access to money or just that she doesn't dare defy him. Like her other children, her posts sound like she's learned to appease him - anyone standing up to him gets the treatment her daughter has received.

Joint therapy isn't recommended in cases of domestic abuse, which this is. The daughter has, on multiple occasions, been both physically and verbally abusive to her dad.

I wouldn't blame @MarmiteMakesMeHappy's husband if he did cut off all financial support. Why should he struggle, as the OP said, to pay for his daughter's uni expenses when she abuses and assaults him? If the sexes were reversed no one would be advocating for a mum to continue paying the uni costs of an adult son who physically attacks her.

She may have learned her rage from him, I don't know, but your DH has learned to control his anger, and so should she.

No way would I be instructing DH to apologise to her unless she apologises first.

I would make a lot of things conditional on her engaging with anger management/any other therapies. Coming home, getting help with Mexico, whatever.

i doubt the boyfriend will still be around at Easter,can’t imagine this relationship will last if she is already shouting at him.I would pay for a consultation with a mental health specialist.She has mental health issues and needs help.Could you contact student support at the universify for advice this behaviour is very serious.Is she still registered with your GP could you speak with them.Sorry you are in this position but the Mexico trip is the least important thing at present.

@Ladyj84

Our oldest lost a holiday once and that was only for backhandingly calling me a name a few years ago. It never happened again but his dad was sorry you do not speak to your mother like that and here's the consequence

How did that work in practice? You all didn’t go?

Sorry @MarmiteMakesMeHappy . FWIW you are not to blame in any way!

She is definitely on the Spectrum.
ADHD probably and maybe Bi polar.
I had PCOS as do both my daughters and they wasn't like this.. more depressed but not volatile/ angry/ nasty. .. but l know women who have been like this with server PMT( I used to work at local Well Womens centre) years and years ago some were sectioned with raging PMT.. thankfully not these days.. has she had this checked out.
I do have Grandson WITH ADHD who can get so angry and lash out.. and wasn't his own way but not to the point like your daughter.
I'd pay for a private psychiatric assessment... with a psychiatrist not just a psychologist.. .
I don't believe this is " just her/ her personality...there is something medical going on here..it's nature not nurture and she needs help .. not punishment.

Totally agree with this, I wouldn't contribute to something which might create an awful situation for another family. Worse case you could end up having to go over and/,or pay for her to come back early. She is far too unstable for international travel with non family members

Why has your daughter not been seen by a psychologist/psychotherapist?
This feels like gross neglect on the part of you and your husband.
Your husbands violence, when she was a child, is the root cause of whatever triggers her now.
Yet you stayed with him, exposing her to that trauma!
Your husband has had therapy for his anger issues but neither of you seem to have considered that her life is worth saving from the trauma you exposed her to.
A few CBT sessions feels like reaching for a sticking plaster when someone has had their legs amputated.
She needs to see a psychologist/psychotherapist for a number of years to try and unravel the trauma that she was subjected to by her father.
For the idiots that say 'oh she's now 18 and must behave like a mature adult', unfortunately the tooth fairy doesn't bring a psychological transformation to a child just because they've reached 'adulthood'

This sounds like a possible autism spectrum diagnosis. But that also she has early learnt behaviour from her father and changing the structural pattern of your brain laid down as a child is really hard.

A very sad situation. Unfortunately there does have to be a serious consequence to kicking someone in the balls. I think op's DH is right about that. It is a painful consequence but one that will result in better self control.

You can withdraw funding for the flights, but at 18 you can’t threaten to withhold uni education costs if she goes. That is only going to completely push her away flip her life upside down. How is withholding education in an adult going to help her?

Agree with PP - the mexico trip is a distraction here and you need to plan how you will move forward as a family.

DH needs to apologise for slapping her but firmly explain it was in reaction to her violence and he was defending himself from injury. It needs to be made clear to DD that in future he will need to call the police to protect himself and her. Back him up on this.

Both DD and DH need to understand how these violent screaming fits and outbursts are impacting the family including your younger DC and impacting on his work.

I would make it clear to DD you are anxious about her going to Mexico before she has addressed this completely unsuitable behaviour and agree a plan for her to start treatment. You can be supportive but make it clear physical violence will not be tolerated or rewarded.

@SpidersAreShitheads I'd second all of your post except the bit about "she needs to be taught a lesson". Am not sure you meant that but anyway as your subsequent explanations show that you are describing natural consequences anyway?

My dad was pretty volatile and horrible towards me when I was growing up. He'd probably say I caused trouble. As soon as things got on a more even keel, we were both relieved and grateful to have a better relationship. I didn't go around demanding retractions, etc, much less being violent and escalating conflicts. If anything, my childhood has made me extremely conflict avoidant.

She sounds like a toddler testing boundaries.

I have only read OP's posts.

I think the way you describe and minimise your daughter's relationship with her father and her experiences growing up are quite shocking. And the drip feed about his drinking. You sort of paint it as "they butted heads a bit". She was a child. It was not a relationship of equals. Her behaviour as a child who grew up with a father who had anger and drink problems was not an equal contributor to the "volatility" at home. He was responsible for the state of their relationship. He was abusive. To be flying into drunken rages that you had to remove the children from the home for their safety? That's abusive. He should have been a safe adult for her. Someone who nurtured her. He was anything but. She was depressed and self-harmed!

In addition to having grown up in an abusive environment, it sounds very likely that there are some additional needs at play. Whilst this doesn't excuse bad behaviour, it is a tall order to expect someone dealing with that (completely unsupported throughout childhood, no diagnosis or help) and who has been on the receiving end of and witnessed appalling behaviour from their parent, to suddenly be able to regulate their emotions now. Your husband would appear to have played an enormous role in the way your DD has learned to cope with and express negative emotions. It's extremely rich of him to now hold DD responsible for "breaking the cycle" when he was unable to do that himself as a much older grown man with a family. He inflicted his trauma and rage on his family for years before he managed to sort his shit out. Which he doesn't actually appear to have done particularly well given that he also physically assaulted DD during this episode.

It's clear that your family has reached a breaking point and that something has to be done. But I don't think that punishing her, given that she has experienced a turbulent home life followed by an extremely difficult time moving out, by taking away something that has been her only light at the end of the tunnel is the way to go about it. I also think it's extremely hypocritical of your husband to be leading the charge on her punishment, given that his behaviour has been no better and was disgusting during her formative years. Perhaps if he had left her alone to try and regulate her emotions when she asked, none of this would have happened.

This.

As I read the OP my thoughts were very much with the boyfriend and it seems that this particular onslaught began with her attacking him verbally.