Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Will the younger siblings be allowed to hit people too, as they have now also witnessed anger and violence?

To be honest, I don’t understand why your dh cannot understand his utterly inflexible adherence to the idea that she must not go to Mexico,

The same bloody mindedness by which her daughter cannot believe he slapped her after she kicked him in the balls?

Have you heard of rejection sensitivity disorder…..I don’t know much about it but a friend of mine has been diagnosed with it and it goes hand in hand with autism

People with Borderline personality/traits are very sensitive to rejection, too. It must be about the thing that makes them lose it the most.

It’s really interesting to see the split in posters and those who have clearly suffered from an alcoholic/abusive parent and still struggle with that. Really interesting for me to see your dilemma too because I was your daughter and my mum didn’t stand up for me and just wanted to ‘keep the peace’ and ‘have a nice Christmas’ even if that meant allowing me to take all the blame or become isolated. I found that very very hard to understand. I’ve no idea if she challenged him behind closed doors but she never ever did it in front of me. Of course now I’m older I realise that life is complicated, they had their own problems etc and I have been able to find a place of compassion to view these events from. However there is a howling gap where my self should be.
Sounds like low/no contact is needed for now which is very difficult given this is her family home.

My dad was pretty awful too, my mum described it as 'like living with a volcano.' Them splitting up was one of the best things that happened to me and probably the only reason I have a relationship with them now.

I resented my mum for not sticking up for me, but she thought they should have a united front.

@SheWentWest you're making assumptions about people's backgrounds here. Granted , there are a few who believe she should be kicked out / arrested / martyred but I think they're in a minority. Most people are sitting somewhere in the middle on this and they won't all have had rosy upbringings

Re Mexico, I'd missed the post where it was just HIS money paying for it (I always think how family finances are run is an accurate measure of how things are between a couple).
Can she not go of he doesn't pay? This suggestion is more about salvaging Christmas than dealing with the major issue which i have commented on.

Your h and dd need therapy not trips to Mexico. I’d be highly concerned that she was physically violent towards her bf too and it’s better for him if she doesn’t go.
It’s clearly not enough that your h behaves differently now. He has to go to therapy with dd and they both have to end the cycle as soon as possible. It’s not fair on the other children to live like this and it sounds like your h needs to hear from an outsider that his current behaviour isn’t enough and he needs to do some actual soul searching and work on himself. If anyone knows what it’s like to be so angry that they lose control , it’s your h.

OP, it sounds like ADHD to me. I think the Mexico trip should be called off not as a punishment but in case she behaves like this with bf's family. You've already said that she isn't exactly all sweetness and light with bf but I wonder if he realises the full extent of it. In any case, his family will be horrified and probably very scared if she kicks off on holiday. All hell could break loose and you could end up arranging a flight home for her, or worse.

As for your DH hitting her, I'm not bloody surprised.

It sounds like it’s far too soon for your dd to come back home. Can she or your h stay elsewhere longer ? A repeat of last night is going to do nobody any favours.

Your DH needs an assessment as much as your DD does.

He's the core of it.

She lashed out at you because by enabling his behaviour all these years, your complicit in allowing the situation to continue.

He's the core, the hub though that this all comes from. She needs help to break the chain.

Your DH sounds also like he's ever so slightly on the spectrum. The lack of ability to see other's sides, the black and white thinking, the anger and fury and the belief that he's right. So fucking right. Won't countenance anyone else's opinions.

I've seen it done it got the t-shirt sadly. I've been an enabler too but I stick up for my kids these days.

I've also left my husband for weeks to stew and calm down and then while he's alone he calms down. He should have left your DD alone. It's a classic of autism too - when upset - LEAVE THEM ALONE. Don't keep buzzing in trying to help. There's fuck all chance of self-regulation.

She shouldn't assault anyone but he should be man enough to walk away. She's his daughter.

He should be grovelling, not the other way around. How very sad.

He needs an assessment and therapy far more than your DD does right now. Because he's in danger of fucking this up forever.

I understand the feeling of being piggy in the middle. It's exhausting and shit and I'm so done with it myself.

I don't know how you get the man to have some more empathy. It's severely lacking. I'd suggest you put them both in therapy together so they can talk it through. That may be the only way. Separate sessions for a bit to cool off and then both together.

They both need to learn how to regulate better.

Also, tell him, he must consider that he can be right. Or he can have a daughter. He may not be able to have both. In the end, no one is perfect, least of all him. So why is he standing on his high moral horse?

If she is formed by her experiences and thus is less culpable for her actions, when then doesn’t the same apply to her father? He too was formed by his experiences, and it doesn’t sound like he had a great childhood either.

background can provide a reason, but it doesn’t provide an excuse. Prisons are full of people with tragic backstories, but that doesn’t mean they’re not responsible for their actions, or that they’re not where they should be.

It’s really interesting to see the split in posters and those who have clearly suffered from an alcoholic/abusive parent and still struggle with that.

I'm not sure the split is necessarily related to that. I had a physically and emotionally abusive male parental unit and a passive mother trying to keep the peace. Never in a million years would I have repeatedly assaulted my father, far less expect him to finance my holidays with the boyf afterwards (!). I'd have been in mortal fear of what he'd do to me if I lifted so much as a finger in his direction.

I'm not at all convinced this girl is remotely afraid of her father. I think she seems quite secure as to her safety, to the point she thinks she can physically attack him over and over, and for him to defend himself against her assaults is unacceptable. His role is just to take being hit, kicked, screamed at - oh, and to pay for her uni and her holidays, of course.

I'm glad my situation does not resonate.

I'd suggest that keeping them apart for a longer period of time is probably a good idea however given your DH's reaction.

"His view is that no matter what - DD cannot assault her parents. He is right of course, but he is also very closed off to his culpability."

But it's OK to assault her, once she's assaulted him?

I’m sorry you went through that. Victims of abuse do not all react in the same way and the fact that this young woman rages in the same way as her father raged/rages at her, doesn’t discount her from being a victim.

It seems to me that noone in your family has learned to walk away. Why didn't your DH walk away when she started blocking the door? Why didn't you threaten to call the police instead of getting physically involved yourself? It sounds like your DD and DH both feed off the drama.

I’m sorry you went through that. Victims of abuse do not all react in the same way and the fact that this young woman rages in the same way as her father raged/rages at her, doesn’t discount her from being a victim.

But she's NOT raging at him in the same way he raged at her. She's physically attacking him (and her mother) repeatedly.

She's the one who's going to end up being battered by someone a lot less tolerant than either of her parents or in jail. Or possibly both.

This. She was very wrong right from the start - and behaved even worse from then on. She needs some kind of therapy and if the money goes on that, so be it.

Yes - two sides of the same coin. They amplify each other’s least desirable characteristics, so should not be so intent on trusting their own responses to each other’s less desirable behaviour. Yes, it is perfectly reasonable not to fund the Mexico trip and to offer to put the money towards seeking a psychiatric assessment and support instead, but it is not reasonable to threaten to withdraw support to finish the degree in an attempt to stop the trip to Mexico, as it’s only too predictable how much cutting off the nose to spite the face will occur over that one.

What a mess. I'm so sorry! Your DD sounds quite a long way along the autism spectrum and your DH is probably somewhere on it too.

Your DD and DH are both extreme rigid thinkers and once they get into a conflict with someone else they don't (can't) stop. When they're really angry and upset they instinctively attack as hard as they can. So when they go head to head neither of them can "stand down" and things escalate out of control as they try to attack and punish each other. They both dig their heels in and who hit who first barely matters any more.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

That is unacceptable from your DH. He doesn't have to pay for her to go to Mexico but refusing to pay for her accommodation in an effort to force her not to go at all to punish her is petty, spiteful and controlling. It's logical but it's not reasonable. As you say, he's fixated.

it's very unusual and hard to imagine a scenario where a young girl is so aggressive and physical.

In my world it's not hard to imagine at all. I'm not saying that everyone with an ASC (or similar) does it, because not everyone with an ASC etc externalises their distress, but it's within expectations. Many of us learn to de-escalate tricky situations and we also learn what to teach our children so they can eventually self-manage. But without the diagnosis you don't really know what she lacks and what she needs to learn so she can keep control.

And yes I do agree with a pp about giving people space to calm themselves down.

He is a bit Victorian (mediterranean upbringing) and he has a history of very poor behaviour during the DC formative years.

Sorry but it's nothing to do with the Mediterranean. He's just a natural rigid thinker and he's passed it on to DD with bells on. That's genetics.

But i would absolutely not want to inflict DD having a rage attack on anyones holiday, so as I said earlier, something I definitely need to think about.

That's not your problem to solve. If she inflicts that on her boyfriend and his family then she will have to live with the consequences.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

It sounds highly predictable. She can't cope when things go wrong, with being challenged or disappointed or criticised. If you make a list of all the occasions when she's gone off on one then you'll soon see her triggers and their pattern. It may also be that she can cope up to a point with her triggers but if something is already bothering her, if she is tired or anxious or excited or if something else has already gone wrong, then another trigger even quite a small one will be the last straw and up she goes like a rocket.

I could find the money to pay for an assessment but not sure what I am looking for.

At the very least she needs a proper differential diagnosis - is it possible to find a clinical psychologist who can assess all the usual suspects (not just ASC) or a multidisciplinary assessment? The pain in the bum is that many specialists for adults only deal with one condition, so you might have to find and pay for assessments for ASC, bipolar, tramua, etc separately. In which case try ASC first.

This is quite upsetting to read, having grown up in a household of parental volatile rages, not only but including around Christmas.

I would be curious about two things
1- do the rages your DD has focus mainly or only against your DH and is he the only person she has pushed, shoved or hit? This would suggest he is the trigger in some way.

2- what did he say about her boyfriend? It clearly was not innocuous to her, when the way forward would have been to de-escalate, not escalate the situation. Not to excuse the behaviour of your DD, but is he winding her up?

Your DH’s role as a parent is to defuse situations and not make them worse. Of course your DD should not behave in an aggressive or abusive manner but he’s coming across as somewhat controlling by saying she cannot go to Mexico. She is 18, it’s not up to him. She has two jobs and she is studying, she clearly does have her life sufficiently on track. He also should not threaten to withhold university costs. She’s not a child. The situation needs them to sit down, probably with a family therapist, and sort it out.

Omg what sense you talk. Wish you were my daughter’s therapist! You seem spot on with your analysis - 🧐 have read and read n this subject due to similiar situation at home and this is a great insight

Sorry I meant this was an excellent reply to the thread. Spot on

Interesting she can control herself at uni and work but has no control when she's abusing her family. I wouldn't be torn with this one.