Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

@followmyflow why would you expect anything from a stranger on the Internet?

I think there's a lot to unpick here, what your dd was abusive and not ok. What your dh did could be viewed as self defence. However, whilst everyone is still so upset/angry I'd do nothing. Let everyone go where they need to to calm down/process whatever and come together when tempers aren't so frayed.

Your dd will have long held grievances and I think instead of labelling her behaviour it's time to have an open honest conversation so she can move forward.

I'd not pay for her flight but I wouldn't stop her doing it for herself, she is an adult.

Your dh needs to acknowledge his role and how his previous behaviour may have impacted your dd. Anger isn't a negative emotion but very often covers up something much deeper.

I'm sorry OP but 'culpability' in the context of your DH seems very unfair.

Dragging stuff up from years ago to excuse your DD physically assaulting you and him on multiple occasions just doesn't cut it. It's very mild mitigation at best. She is a grown women who needs to take full responsibility for her actions.

I wonder if the sexes were reversed and it was an 18 year old boy physically attacking his mother on multiple occasions because she was angry with him as a child we would be anywhere near as desperate to minimise?

Of course we wouldn't, because both situations are equally unacceptable but you seem determined to try and find a way out for your daughter where she doesn't have to accept she is on a one way road to a criminal record and prison if she can't control her fists and feet.

I genuinely worry about her relationship with her boyfriend, I'd be very surprised if he hasn't been on the received end of a few punches and kicks if what you describe about her is true.

It has to stop, and it has to stop now. Your husband's past anger issues are a distraction.

You are being very passive OP.

If my DD assaulted DH once, never mind multiple times, she would be out the door.

I wouldn't pay anything for Mexico, but by the way your DD is treating her BF I suspect she'll be uninvited pretty soon.

If she isn't, let's hope that she doesn't end up in trouble over there, if she does then she'll get a nasty surprise about how tourists can be treated.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy are dds profuse apologies linked to fact dh doesn't want to fund Mexico now?

I perhaps should have said that personality disorders are differentiated from mental illness, and having a personality disorder generally isn’t considered grounds for a diminished responsibility defence.

Not that it being one would be a get out of jail free card anyway, because if someone that can’t control themselves and is a danger to the public then there is still cause to remove them from society. Instead of a prison they’d go to a psychiatric unit.

It sounds like the DH still has anger issues.

and for an 18 year old, witnessing the domestic abuse of her mother and being the subject of her fathers rages, won’t be “years ago”.

@Octavia64 Your situation doesn't really resonate with me. DH is not cruel. He is not spiteful or vindictive. He is a bit Victorian (mediterranean upbringing) and he has a history of very poor behaviour during the DC formative years. I am not playing down the trauma this will have caused (which is becoming more and more evident) but he would not seek out ways to deliberately hurt or target anyone - esepcially not one of his DC.

He is a pompous prick at times and he has done damage. I am processing that now.

I suppose it was a perfect storm.

DH with his slightly backward, view of parenting and the world
DH with pain trauma rage
DH drinking and lashing out verbally for a long time

DD bright - the oldest - seeing and noticing everything
DD absolutely loving her dad (and this being reciprocated) so they are very close
DD stubborn and headstrong from the word go - long before any problems with DH

And in the cold light of the day, I can see how we got here.

We need professional help. DD will be receptive. DH not so much. That's all i can say for sure

He is a bloke and her father TBH, he didn't need to hit her back he could've walked/moved away. Mind you, I'd kind've missed the bit where she also hit you and he was trying to restrain her from doing it.

I don't think she can be in the house at the moment. She assaulted you too OP. Definitely tell her she can't come back unless she promises not to do any of it, and consider calling the police if she then does it again.

Have you heard of rejection sensitivity disorder…..I don’t know much about it but a friend of mine has been diagnosed with it and it goes hand in hand with autism. Some people with autism (not all) can also struggle with rages.

sorry, it all sounds awful. I do agree she needs consequences and I think your dh is right to say no to Mexico but I get how hard it is. I have a 22yo who can be verbally vile to me and I struggle to follow through with consequences. Thankfully she’s not violent and I will say she’s got better in the last 18 months. I do think Dd is autistic, she thinks she is as well. I look back at her childhood and wonder how I never suspected it when she was you, she ticks like every box going. She’s had to work hard at regulating her temper but I would say she’s only ever been vile to me and dh, she could always control it around others.

OP, it seems from all of your posts that both your DD and your DH are neuro divergent. Whether they have autism or ADHD, they cannot regulate their emotions. It is likely your DH’s father was similar. You seem to be very passive in all of this - you really need to be more proactive to save what remains of your family relationship.

You seem to be very passive in all of this - you really need to be more proactive to save what remains of your family relationship.

This is very unfair. The OP is hardly passive. She's caught between a rock and a hard place and trying to rescue Christmas. She can't save the relationship between her DH and DD - only they can do that.

You are THE PARENTS and its up to you to manage the situation because you are older. You have continually excused your DH’s shitty behavior with “his father…his Mediterranean outlook… his Victorian upbringing…” but you can’t get him to extend the same grace to your daughter and you are so frightened of him and dominated by him you can’t speak up for yourself and your daughter while he spite punishes her like a dog on a choke chain.

Sadly from my experience this is probably the case

Maybe just accept dd apology - for the sake of christmas
But stand firm with your husband on the money for the trip
Just say no and cut the extra money for uni too.
If bf wants her to go to Mexico and he finds her behaviour towards her dad acceptable then he can help her pay for the trip .

I think that no matter the reason for her volatile outbursts, as far as Mexico goes, she’s not in a fit state for that. If she’s going away with bf and his family she can’t be exploding like this. It’s not about punishment, it’s about consequences and taking action. Nobody deserves to be verbally or physically assaulted. He may put up with it, but he shouldn’t have to!
Theres time to get her a Christmas gift. If her attitude is bad, that’s just going to have to be how this Christmas goes. You can’t just ignore the situation in favour of making one day easier.

If they argue later I suggest you say to the younger dc let’s get out of here and leave and go for dinner. I’m sure both your dd and dh would be shocked if you abdicated from your role as the family peace maker and glue and they might take more personal responsibility for resolving things between them. I appreciate that the idea of walking out might feel scary in regard to what you’re leaving behind but it doesn’t seem that your presence calmed the situation last night so why should you and your other children have to tolerate it.

Your DD has gone too far. Your DH cannot stop her travelling to Mexico, yes he doesn’t have to pay for it but he can’t stop her going, that’s petty and will just cause further issues. She needs help. Why aren’t you more concerned about the level of her anger?

They are behaving like two toddlers. Grown up people do not behave in this way. She, perhaps, has some excuse, some mitigating circumstances. He has none. He didn't have to get involved in this way, he chose to. I'm afraid you're living with a violent, abusive man.

DH&DD both desperately need help. DH needed it years ago, but pointless looking back, you can only fix the future, not the past. She shouldn’t get the flights paid for, no, she needs consequences, but so does DH for his shit previous behaviour which at least in part has led to this, although I think dd sounds like she is not neurotypical. Her behaviour is absolutely outrageous but if she isn’t nt, not entirely unexpected, obviously she has gone extremely over the top on this occasion. Such an awful situation, but I wouldn’t disagree with your DH’s plan to not pay for flights. He can’t ‘cancel Christmas’ for everyone else, tho. Can she stay at her bf’s over the next few days? I don’t think having her in the house is fair for anyone currently, your Dh and her are 100% going to re-visit this and need space. She has a loving house to be in, presumably he doesn’t have anywhere else to go and tbh, I don’t think he should have to.

You say your second dc is very close in age: presumably very different personality and not as affected by your DH’s horrible behaviour growing up?

I have had similar in my family, without the violence. Your DD has done well working hard to get A levels and now at Uni. She is also holding down two jobs, has friends and a boyfriend. That is a lot to achieve for a girl who is obviously sensitive and has grown up with an angry, volatile DF.
I may be wrong but I would be responding like you and do not think punishment would help break the cycle.
Your DD urgently needs help from mental health services with maybe family therapy or counselling for you and your DH.

how do DH and DD normally resolve things after they have had conflict?

regarding tonight, if needs be one or other of them need to stay somewhere else if they cannot both agree and adhere to no violence.

To be honest, I don’t understand why your dh cannot understand his utterly inflexible adherence to the idea that she must not go to Mexico, however ridiculous and over the top the means used to ensure this, is an example of the thought processes and knee jerk reactions he is punishing his dd for. Nobody should try to exert that degree of dominance and control over another adult, as it will have unintended, detrimental consequences, especially as she has rightfully learnt that when it comes to your dh, fight or flight dictates she must stick up for herself or be squashed by his will. He has, by his past behaviour, lost the right and ability to be the one to help her deal with her emotions and problems - he needs to recognise that he has established a behavioural pattern between the two of them where they will only ever wind each other up, rather than help each other to see sense (unless they both have extensive therapy to learn how to walk away before it’s too late and the mist has descended). They are both like a countries in a nuclear arms race where the final solution is not seen as off limits. While he continues to react like this, there is little hope for your dd to see that she can ever learn to control her impulses, because they are clearly still evident in your dh. Your dd has not learnt quite how unacceptable her behaviour is, because your dh has still not quite learnt that lesson, either.

What seems abundantly clear to me in amongst all of this shit is that you are a victim here .Your husband was (is?) abusive towards you. I understand all the trauma he had, but regardless he was abusive. It will have impacted on all the DC , and may well still be. Your DD is now abusive to you two, her boyfriend and other friends. Again there may be reasons, but regardless it’s abusive behaviour. She may be lovely as you say, but many abusers are lovely a lot of the time.

You, unsurprisingly are trying to both appease and resolve the situation, made all the worse by Christmas coming. No wonder you feel overwhelmed, and incapable of doing anything. Why not step away for a while, go out for a few hours this evening, allow yourself time to think. Leave them to it.

In the longer term if you are spending any money on therapy why not consider some for yourself? It’s a cliche but true, you can only change your own behaviour, and that’s maybe what you need to do for your sake.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy I suggest your daughter stays away until after Christmas, which will give your husband time to cool down and remove the pressure of Christmas day on you all.