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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Torn between DH and DD

700 replies

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 10:49

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
ColonelDax · 22/12/2023 16:18

Octavia64 · 22/12/2023 16:14

Hi OP

I have had a similar situation.

My DD and my then H had to be separated because they both believed the other hated them and they would both punish the other.

They had regular physical fights which were usually started by my then H pushing past her or giving her a shove at which point she would lose it.

She loved the cats and so sometimes if I wasn't around he would be deliberately cruel to the cats to upset her.

In the end I had to separate them after he pushed against her but didn't realise she was trapped against a door. He'd intended to only hurt her a little bit (as a punishment for something she had said earlier that day) but she wound up quite seriously injured - badly bruised all over her upper body.

I took her and we left.

My then H agreed that she had some problems and we went to see a private psychiatrist. She was diagnosed with anxiety (mostly from him to be honest) and put on duloxetine for the anxiety and diazepam because she kept having nightmares he was trying to kill her.

Her behaviour improved immediately she was away from him and when I promised her that she didn't have to go back she cried her eyes out.

My then H agreed that the best thing to do was for her to live separately with me for the seven months until she went to uni. She accessed therapy which also helped.

We also got her assessed for adhd by psychiatry U.K. and she was medicated through them. Again, this made a massive difference.

She went to uni very successfully.

My then H and I tried to reconcile but he insisted that she was an evil manipulative bitch who was out to deliberately destroy his life when actually it was both of them. Neither of them were capable of de escalating.

I suspect that your DH is also not capable of de-escalating and having the parenting skills that she needs. In particular, the parenting skills needed here are those skills of navigating private healthcare to get her seen by a private psychiatrist and appropriately diagnosed and medicated, and the ability to follow what the psychiatrist says is the best way to handle the situation.

Get them separated. Get her seen.

What on earth?!

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the OPs situation.

Your ex was a domestic abuser. End of story.

OPs clearly isn't.

🙄

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 16:19

I see in your comments OP that PMDD has been mentioned.

The daughter's behaviour isn't just at premenstrual times though, it's in direct response to interpersonal conflict and can happen at any time. So it's not likely to be PMDD, although women with these sorts of issues can be worse at that time too.

ByTheTreeWithTheGoldenClock · 22/12/2023 16:20

ColonelDax · 22/12/2023 16:18

What on earth?!

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the OPs situation.

Your ex was a domestic abuser. End of story.

OPs clearly isn't.

🙄

The OP has described his abuse of the family, fuelled by drink, that made her flee the house with her children on repeated occasions. So, yes he is an abuser. She says herself she should have left him but didn't, and eventually he managed to improve his behaviour to some extent which doesn't negate the kind of childhood her daughter has experienced because of him.

DaggerIsle · 22/12/2023 16:21

By the way did your daughter apologise for hitting you across the head?
Without minimising her behaviour, the incident you've described was instigated by her after a fight with her BF.
If she's so keen to get an apology from your DH (which triggered the second part of the row) was she then happy to apologise to you when you got hit for trying to calm things?

DingDongMerrilyOnHiiiigh · 22/12/2023 16:21

To answer some questions about DD's rages

Typical triggers are rejection/perception of laughing at her
She has shown this behaviour to friends and BF which is why I believe that she genuinely doesn't choose it. She has lost friends.

A scenario OP -
She's in Mexico with BF and his family. They're in a restaurant.
She tries ordering food in Spanish and gets it a bit wrong with the waiter.
One of the BF's family members has a little giggle.

What would you expect to happen in this situation?

Because from your descriptions it sounds like she would potentially be triggered into a rage?

From everything you've said I think you are downplaying how fair on the family it would be for her to go.

Okeydokedeva · 22/12/2023 16:22

Sorry to be blunt but she is being a shitbag. And pandered to. There is no way I would tolerate this in my own home. I’d kick her out. She is violent and abusive.

Pineconesandterracotta · 22/12/2023 16:22

Does she track her cycles? I would look into PMDD. I have struggled with red mist blind rages and PMDD was the cause. Your daughter has crossed a line but I’m going to go against the grain and say going for a tough love approach might send her over the edge or really push her away. Good luck and I hope over the next few days things can be sorted and you can all have a lovely Christmas.

DaggerIsle · 22/12/2023 16:22

By the way did your daughter apologise for hitting you across the head?
Without minimising his behaviour, the incident you've described was instigated by her after a fight with her BF.
If she's so keen to get an apology from your DH (which triggered the second part of the row) was she then happy to apologise to you when you got hit for trying to calm things?

followmyflow · 22/12/2023 16:23

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 22/12/2023 16:06

No he didn't, he hit her shoulder, while she was assaulting him

DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

im not expecting anything of great intelligence from you, but at least read something properly before you attempt to correct me on it.

notlucreziaborgia · 22/12/2023 16:23

Having ‘something else’ going on doesn’t mean she can’t be held legally accountable for her actions. A personality disorder, if that is what she has, isn’t psychosis. If she carries on like she has been doing and assaults someone that reports her to the police she could absolutely end up with a criminal record and/or in prison. If she ‘can’t control’ herself then she shouldn’t be going to Mexico, because the last thing she wants to be doing is assaulting someone and ending up in a jail there, or assaulting the wrong person and having them deal with her.

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 16:23

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy From your update OP, I think you're doing great at getting things clear in your mind and starting to formulate a plan. I'm glad if you've been finding the thread helpful in some ways. x

LuckySantangelo35 · 22/12/2023 16:24

Allwelcone · 22/12/2023 15:01

Just try some of the same techniques on your dh as have been suggested here, but give hime a bit of space first (although I can see this is hard as Christmas is fast approaching!).

Then tell him how it is. Mexico= still happening. Family dynamics = work in progress.
Love for each other = always there

@Allwelcone

she cannot force her husband to pay for Mexico

StBrides · 22/12/2023 16:24

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 15:50

I don't think I have ever been on - never mind started - a more divided thread.

At least I understand why I feel so conflicted now.

So here's what I have learned/think on the back of this.

DH is far more accountable than I first gave him credit for
He is more interested in being 'right' than solving long term
He really believes he is being compassionate and teaching her, but he should have been teaching her 10 years ago.
He will always be a trigger for her
DD needs a professional assessment
Her behaviour is completely unacceptable and no matter how it came to be, she has to learn that there are consequences.
DH is within his rights not to pay for her flights.

That's as far as I can say with any certainty. But that's more than I had this morning.

Edited

The two, related, things I would add to this are:

  • you need to stop being so passive and softly softly
  • you and dh need to find a way to work together. This means both of you backing away from such radical differences in approach and meeting in the middle. Atm I think your husband has much further to back down than you do, you already seem to be most the way there.

Do you think your husband will be amenable to compromising when he's cooled off? Which might take a week or two...

If you can get him to not pull her uni funding and realise that he can't forbid her from going to Mexico then I think the two of you have a real chance, along with professional support, of ending this awful dynamic

LuckySantangelo35 · 22/12/2023 16:25

notlucreziaborgia · 22/12/2023 16:23

Having ‘something else’ going on doesn’t mean she can’t be held legally accountable for her actions. A personality disorder, if that is what she has, isn’t psychosis. If she carries on like she has been doing and assaults someone that reports her to the police she could absolutely end up with a criminal record and/or in prison. If she ‘can’t control’ herself then she shouldn’t be going to Mexico, because the last thing she wants to be doing is assaulting someone and ending up in a jail there, or assaulting the wrong person and having them deal with her.

Edited

This is the reality

TravelInHope · 22/12/2023 16:26

queenofallqueens · 22/12/2023 11:38

I'm so sorry to read this and you sound very worried. It must be very agonizing for you.

None of this reads right, but I definetely think your DH could have controlled himself more. Had this been a spat at work and he got physical, the consequences could have been severe. And yes I know she hit first.

At the point he lashed out, and she started reacting, a grown adult and father would have left the room.

I also feel for your other children. I don't have much ( or any!) advice really, I just hope it all works out with time, counselling? and boundaries

Definitely the man’s fault. I haven’t really read the post though.

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 16:28

I mean, some people with Borderline can go genuinely psychotic at times, think there are unknown people in the flat next door coming to get them etc for instance, but that doesn't seem to be one of the traits OP's daughter has.

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 16:28

Still here. Still reading.

DD has apologised to me profusely and repeatedly. She stayed with BF last night so things could calm down but DH is more angry today than yesterday. Yesterday he was very sad. Today he is angry. He definitely is not receptive to any conversations about his role in this right now. We have had those conversations and will again, but today he is hard-line fucked off/not moving.

His view is that no matter what - DD cannot assault her parents. He is right of course, but he is also very closed off to his culpability.

I am the family glue and I honestly don't know how to fix this one.

Everything else aside - Christmas/Holidays/Money for Uni/Past History/DD/DH/DC - all of it aside - I am frozen. I am a FREEZE when it comes to fight/flight/freeze and I can't even go to the supermarket because I can't cope with happy Christmas stuff. I am dreading tonight when DD comes home. They will argue round and round in circles and I can see it escalating again. Neither of them are sorry enough.

OP posts:
DRS1970 · 22/12/2023 16:29

I think your DH is right to withhold the money for the trip. Why would he want to reward someone who has assaulted him and treated him like dirt just because she can't keep her temper under control.

ColonelDax · 22/12/2023 16:29

ByTheTreeWithTheGoldenClock · 22/12/2023 16:20

The OP has described his abuse of the family, fuelled by drink, that made her flee the house with her children on repeated occasions. So, yes he is an abuser. She says herself she should have left him but didn't, and eventually he managed to improve his behaviour to some extent which doesn't negate the kind of childhood her daughter has experienced because of him.

I said isn't, not wasn't.

There has to be a path back for people and besides, OP states clearly he was never physically violent, just angry and shouty. She says this was years ago. He realised it was ruining things for his family and voluntarily reformed. Good for him. If OPs daughter does the same with her physical violence (a far bigger issue than 'anger' btw) then I'd say well done and good for her too.

The post I replied to clearly describes a father who deliberately physically hurts his child on a whim or as a petty act of 'getting back at them'. Absolutely not comparable to the OPs situation at all.

Bernieee · 22/12/2023 16:30

Whilst DP has a lot to answer for I think that in this particular situation she has been completely unreasonable and is completely in the wrong. Please don’t minimise her behaviour as you’ll do her no favours.

Parents that constantly make excuses for their children make them awful to be around. Which it sounds the case for her poor friends and family. Additionally, if she can control it in work but can be explosive with family - to me indicates a personality disorder. I would speak to a GP because this ehaviour isn’t normal.

I understand that her dad has had a temper in the past, but many of us come from difficult backgrounds that doesn’t give us the right to behave how she did.

For her future happiness, atop seeing her as the victim and empower her to be better. She needs consequences, she can travel to Mexico but this doesn’t need to be funded by you.

Clementine1513 · 22/12/2023 16:31

ColonelDax · 22/12/2023 16:29

I said isn't, not wasn't.

There has to be a path back for people and besides, OP states clearly he was never physically violent, just angry and shouty. She says this was years ago. He realised it was ruining things for his family and voluntarily reformed. Good for him. If OPs daughter does the same with her physical violence (a far bigger issue than 'anger' btw) then I'd say well done and good for her too.

The post I replied to clearly describes a father who deliberately physically hurts his child on a whim or as a petty act of 'getting back at them'. Absolutely not comparable to the OPs situation at all.

The DH does not sound that reformed to me.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 22/12/2023 16:33

Family therapy would help, I think. It would be useful for your husband to see how he has contributed and for them to repair their relationship and behaviour together.

I also agree with the PP who mentioned BPD. Not as a diagnosis but your DD’s behaviour sounds unusual, even bearing in mind her early experiences.

I agree with many others that it would not be unreasonable not to pay for Mexico, but it would be unreasonable to prevent her going if she can pay for herself.

BF sounds lovely. I hope she can keep him.

porridgeisbae · 22/12/2023 16:33

I am dreading tonight when DD comes home. They will argue round and round in circles and I can see it escalating again. Neither of them are sorry enough.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy Can you stop this? Just ask them not to, before it starts? Otherwise I don't think she should come back at the moment, because it will genuinely make things worse- he might threaten to throw her out, she might kick off etc.

So either tell them beforehand that you can't have them arguing, or she (or they) should stay somewhere else for a couple of nights (not as a punishment, but so as not to entrench/worsen the situation.)

Hemax1 · 22/12/2023 16:33

I haven’t read all the posts … but there is something that that really stands out about your DD and her behaviour - she is a posing responsibility for it. Until she accepts responsibility for her own actions when she is ‘out of control’ this will keep happening - because until that point it will always be someone’s ‘fault’ for triggering her to bag e like this.

Whether or not the consequences will work I don’t know - but it sounds like your DH is at the end of his tether being on the receiving end of violence from her - and she’s continuing to push the boundaries with that towards him - so I’m unsurprised he is feeling unwilling to help her.

weatherbell · 22/12/2023 16:33

She was just fresh from an argument with her boyfriend. No doubt this has flooded her body with the stress and memories of what she witnessed between you and her father. She's suddenly feeling like that lost little girl again. It's no surprise then, that she immediately needs to test her father through goading to see if he's still the same man he used to be or if he now has self control and can be the father she needs when feeling vulnerable. I'm afraid he failed and went one step worse than before with the slap (justified or not). What she needs now is a rebuilding of love and trust that she can believe in so she no longer has to 'test'.