Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Oh stop it. No one, certainly not a random on MN can diagnose autism from a post.

It could be many things.

Physical violence is never acceptable in any situation. How has it got to the point where she's assaulted her own family more than 5 times enough to leave visible marks. Enough is enough OP you can't go on like this. Your daughter needs professional help, anger management at the very least. Something has to change or nothing ever will.

Your husband is right you should NOT be funding her trip to Mexico now. But he is wrong to think he can stop her going at all. I don't think it's a good idea to stop paying her uni rent either, that could be a complete disaster if it affects her studies. It seems like she is doing well at Uni and it would be a shame for anything to derail that part of her life.

Oh give over OP, you’re not worried about Mexico because you know damn well your daughter CAN control herself hence why she has no problems at work or uni. The fact she’s her “best self” with her BF is irrelevant because they’re not holidaying alone, are they? They’re going with his family so if you truly believed she has no control over herself then you’d be extremely worried about Mexico because according to you, all it would take is one perceived slight from another family member & she’d fly off the handle again!

You know deep down she does have self control & burying your head in the sand & pretending otherwise isn’t doing her any favours.

I don't think I have ever been on - never mind started - a more divided thread.

At least I understand why I feel so conflicted now.

So here's what I have learned/think on the back of this.

DH is far more accountable than I first gave him credit for
He is more interested in being 'right' than solving long term
He really believes he is being compassionate and teaching her, but he should have been teaching her 10 years ago.
He will always be a trigger for her
DD needs a professional assessment
Her behaviour is completely unacceptable and no matter how it came to be, she has to learn that there are consequences.
DH is within his rights not to pay for her flights.

That's as far as I can say with any certainty. But that's more than I had this morning.

I haven't read the whole thread but a lot of what you’re describing sounds like borderline personality disorder, especially the over the top reactions to feeling wronged or rejected as well as the intense moods.

If you can afford it, it might be worthwhile looking into dialectical behavior therapy. It’s particularly beneficial for borderline - regular talk therapy doesn’t really help those patients as much.

More info : https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/talking-therapy-and-counselling/dialectical-behaviour-therapy-dbt/

If you have to choose between your angry, damaged, unhappy, self harming, traumatised daughter who desperately wants to be better and your angry, damaged husband who traumatised her and refuses to accept any need for help or change,@MarmiteMakesMeHappy - I don't see there's much of a contest.

My daughters Behavior pretty identical to Ops. and diagnosed as borderline and ADHD. DBT recommended. Very tough for her and also family

To be honest it sounds like your daughter should not be in a relationship until she has had some help to regulate her behaviour.
I feel sorry for her Bf, having to navigate horrendous argument and for the past 2 years as well! Her being lovely 95% of the time is just not good enough.
What if something triggers her in front of his family?

@JANEY205 . She tried to de-escalate by closing her door and he continued to go on and on at her! That is not acceptable.
This from op. De-escalation is the opposite of what the dd did!
"They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters)."

its your husband's fault. he abused his daughter and basically "turned" her into this. and now he slapped her across the face. that is absolutely inexcusable, and honestly disgusting.
preventing her from going to mexico will do NOTHING for her. if i was her, i would go to mexico anyway, and cut ties with my father.

As are you op you need to stop being passive, you feel trapped in the middle because you feel your only option is to take a side.

it isn’t - you need to find your voice and tell your DH that Christmas is on, that he needs to accept his part in it and whereas stopping the flights is an acceptable consequence that is it that is where it ends. His need to be right and him pushing her is not on either he needs to learn to walk away. He can learn not to trigger her as wekk

then you need to get DD help, tell her yiu love her but that her behaviour can’t go on and giving her the flights to Mexico is now not going tohappen and that instead the money will be used to fund private therapy (and perhaps some private medical care looking into PCOS and is anything triggered by periods such as PMDD) look at both fixing anything hormonal and physical and getting therapy bath of which could use the flight money

So when DD has children and treats them like her dad treated her do we continue to excuse her terrible behaviour? If the answer to this is no - can you explain to me at what point she has to change? Can you see how ridiculous your argument is - it locks people into cycles of violence and no one ever has to take responsibility for their actions.

The money would be better spent on a a string of counselling sessions. Your DD behaviour is violent and unacceptable, really unacceptable,

she was fighting with the man who abused her. not an innocent child.

Your daughter sounds vile . I would be embarrassed to send such a person on holiday with others knowing how volatile she is . You struggle to control her so don't let her ruin their holiday .

OP, I have used this provider before. They are based in london I believe but many people access through zoom for both personal and group therapy. I would contact them, if they don't have availability or are too far and you want in person, maybe they'd be able to recommend something more local to you.

www.mind-reframed.com/

OP you said yourself that your DH was a very angry man who took his rage out on you to the point where you had to leave the house with the children whilst he raged. I grew up in a house like this, it is incredibly distressing and upsetting being a child in this situation. She will have grown up with a lot of anger towards her father and felt rage on your behalf, particularly as you kept going back to him. There will have been frustration and rage festering and when she got old enough she will have suddenly felt it it bubbling over.

Growing up in a similar situation I can tell you I felt, and still feel, an immense amount of anger towards the person who is in your DH’s position. His behaviour made me incredibly anxious and angry and I was also angry at my DM for staying with him, despite running away multiple times because of his unacceptable behaviour (no physical
violence either but Incredible drunken rants and rages and scary verbal abuse). Do not underestimate the effect this will have had on your DD.

Those commenting that your should chuck your DD out will not understand the trauma she has been through as a child and how the anger you feel festers like a bad disease.

It is easy for your DH to rant and rave again but you know in your heart he was incredibly wrong to slap her. She will likely never forgive him for that, a huge line was crossed.

If both parties were open to family therapy I honestly think this is the only way forward to heal old wounds and start afresh.

No he didn't, he hit her shoulder, while she was assaulting him

It certainly sounds like she has a problem that needs addressing and if she carries on like this I can't see her b/f sticking around

However - if it had been your DS carrying on like this I bet the police might have been involved

I am on a parenting mental health facebook group. I think the advice you would get there would be different to here. It's full of experience and support.
I highly recommend the group

I wouldn't stop her paying for herself (you could cause a huge rift by denying her an education) but I would certainly use the money for a private assessment. My daughter has Austism with PDA which can cause rages and violent episodes, it also manifests as anxiety so very similar.

@coffeandrteav could you please share the group with me. Im in one called POPs but on the look out for more spaces with my peers in.

Hi OP

I have had a similar situation.

My DD and my then H had to be separated because they both believed the other hated them and they would both punish the other.

They had regular physical fights which were usually started by my then H pushing past her or giving her a shove at which point she would lose it.

She loved the cats and so sometimes if I wasn't around he would be deliberately cruel to the cats to upset her.

In the end I had to separate them after he pushed against her but didn't realise she was trapped against a door. He'd intended to only hurt her a little bit (as a punishment for something she had said earlier that day) but she wound up quite seriously injured - badly bruised all over her upper body.

I took her and we left.

My then H agreed that she had some problems and we went to see a private psychiatrist. She was diagnosed with anxiety (mostly from him to be honest) and put on duloxetine for the anxiety and diazepam because she kept having nightmares he was trying to kill her.

Her behaviour improved immediately she was away from him and when I promised her that she didn't have to go back she cried her eyes out.

My then H agreed that the best thing to do was for her to live separately with me for the seven months until she went to uni. She accessed therapy which also helped.

We also got her assessed for adhd by psychiatry U.K. and she was medicated through them. Again, this made a massive difference.

She went to uni very successfully.

My then H and I tried to reconcile but he insisted that she was an evil manipulative bitch who was out to deliberately destroy his life when actually it was both of them. Neither of them were capable of de escalating.

I suspect that your DH is also not capable of de-escalating and having the parenting skills that she needs. In particular, the parenting skills needed here are those skills of navigating private healthcare to get her seen by a private psychiatrist and appropriately diagnosed and medicated, and the ability to follow what the psychiatrist says is the best way to handle the situation.

Get them separated. Get her seen.

I would like the name of the group too if possible. Thank you

Just echoing other people's points that if she can't control her anger to the point of violence, then she absolutely should not be going somewhere like Mexico, where behaviour like that will get her into very real, grown up trouble.

If she can control it (which she will no doubt swear when you tell her you aren't going to pay for her flights any more), then that just makes her behaviour towards her father all the worse.

Your husband's anger in her formative years probably hasn't helped, but there are a lot of armchair psychologists on this thread absolutely desperate to blame him for this. Nonsense.

She is an adult, there is no excuse for physically attacking a member of your own family, particularly when as you said he was trying to walk away.