Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

This.

He genuinely thinks he can 'fix' DD with consequences.

This is where I disagree with your DH and many of the posters of this thread.

DDs behaviour is absolutely awful but as it is learnt behaviour (and possibly other things too) then punishing her is not going to make her change.

Yes you can give her consequences but not one that is in a few months time.

Your DH had no consequences for his behaviour, so why is it fair that she’s acting the way she was taught but getting severely punished for it.

If you had kicked DH out years ago, her behaviour wouldn’t be like this.
Tbh if you kicked him out now, I can imagine her behaviour would massively improve.

Her behaviour is completely unacceptable but every scenario you’ve mentioned has DH as the common factor.

He shouldn’t excuse her behaviour but he should take responsibility for it and be the one to be proactive in helping her regulate her emotions and walking away if things start to get heated.

I think going away to Mexico would be the best thing for everyone and I don’t think it’s fair she’s being punished for something that she was taught is acceptable.

People are losing sight of the fact that with respect to the mexico trip OP’s DH is intruding and controlling something that was not, originally, his to control. And he knows that which is why he is escalating the punishment by threatening to cut off her education if she spends her own money on her holiday. Dd saved, was invited, snd the trip does not have to be seen as having anything to do with tge dh.

MN always divides, when it comes to children, between “help them” and “control and dominate them” since MN come in two basic flavors: authoritarian and non authoritarian (terms of art in psychology.)

This young adult needs help which this fractured, incompetent, father is not prepared to give. OP needs to step the fuck up and separate the two warring parties. DH is a big boy. Tell him to shut the fuck up and stop threatening his daughter’s future (the threat about education).

Her trust will have been hugely, possibly irretrievably broken if she thought she was safe to say that because although he clearly wanted to hit her he wouldn't actually snap, but then he actually did hit her.
How awful for her, that trust of thinking you can be as violent and abusive as you want and people will just take it being broken, dreadful for her.
Seriously?!!

^ this. My daughter has EUBPD and this behaviour sounds incredibly familiar to me. My daughter tries this with me and is incredibly hard to ignore her outdoors but the simple truth is that when it's happening you need to disengage and NOT retaliate and just let them burn themselves out. Not that my daughter has ever actually hurt me physically. Just spectacular outbursts and threats of self harm and spreading lies about me. She also has trauma from her past, from a very volatile father who never hit her. But the first 3 years of her life were walked on egg shells around him. This is the price I pay for starting in that sustain for so long. Her bouts of rage are also triggered by perceived rejection.

I have both diagnosed by NHS as well ...and I agree with you I'm absolutely nothing like the DD is described,I never raise my voice I've never hurt anyone,I don't rage ..it's all inwardly directed .
But my eldest son with autism ,has been in the past exactly like the op describes her daughter,and my dad. ( Where I get it from ) was very similar to how op describes her husband.

Fair enough.

BF mum and I talk and are reasonably friendly. I have known the family years. They are aware of DD's struggles but have said that she is always lovely when she is around them.

BF is friends with DS as well. There is a lot of open communication between them and all of us really. EG: DH called Boyfriend yesterday to check DD was ok and with him after she'd left the house (without her phone).

But i would absolutely not want to inflict DD having a rage attack on anyones holiday, so as I said earlier, something I definitely need to think about.

I honestly feel alone in this apart from you lot. DH is pretty fixed in his view now - he thinks he is on a crusade to fix things. DD is fixed that she knows she did wrong but it's out of her control. Other DC just want everyone to be friends and have Christmas (understandably) and I am stuck in the middle trying to see all points of view and do the right thing. The problem is that because DD and DH are at opposite ends - any alignment by me with one of them, is outright rejection to the other. There isn't a 'happy medium' and I feel cornered and sick

OP, this all resonates strongly with me. I had a Dad like your DH. I was very much like your DD in response. Very reactive and I did similar to the door blocking etc as was desperate to reach a resolution and unresolved conflict left me in such deep torment it was almost a physical pain. That is ALL a result of an emotionally abusive Dad. Once I moved out and stopped dealing with my Dad I was able to gradually improve my own emotional regulation, my Dad will always be a massive trigger for me and passive parents who don’t protect their children from emotional abuse aren’t helping them either. I speak to my Mother but have resentment towards her (for things like being blocked from going to Mexico despite the fact your DH didn’t de-escalate either did he? He didn’t manage the situation well either and yet all he can focus on is her punishment? He’s a controlling arsehole and I don’t think he sounds that improved tbh). I am very limited contact with my Dad and don’t see him and thankfully my parents are divorcing and he moved out. My mother is so much happier. She has more friends now, is happier and it’s like a huge weight has been lifted off her.

It is not acceptable that he is talking about cancelling Christmas and not letting her go to Mexico. How dare he? He physically slapped her, put your family through years of verbal and emotional abuse and is still very controlling. HE is the biggest issue here and she is reacting against him. My older sister was by far the most deeply impacted by our Dad. The oldest often are. The fact she is kind to her siblings speaks volumes! I suspect you were caught in the crosshairs and in her rage she smacked you and now deeply regrets it. I wouldn’t regret hitting someone who had slapped me in the face either or been abusive for years. It sounds like his way or the highway and everyone has to toe the line or he still lashes out and is immature. HE IS THE PROBLEM. Of course he needs to keep paying her uni maintenance! Let him take this Mexico trip from her when he was also at fault and you will watch damage to the relationship that can’t ever be really healed. Where are his consequences for his part in all this? I bet you walk on eggshells OP and your younger children too and it makes me so sad.

I bet a lot of posters encouraging harshness to your daughter don’t know what it’s actually like to live with a Dad like this. It’s horrible.

Tbh now OP has posted more, I am starting to think this whole thread is BS.

OP is slapped in head - but that's apparently fine and not of note (to OP)
DH kicked in balls and assaulted at least 5 times recently hard enough to leave marks - but apparently that's fine
Other DC all love sister and doesn't care abut her outbursts
BF is the 'dominant' one and doesn't care about her outbursts.

OP is either having a laugh at our expense when people are genuinely trying to provide advice or she is just incapable of parenting her child and seeing that, actually, regardless of any other 'mitigating factors' (I.e. DH being an abusive twit) her other children and dear boyfriend shouldn't have to put up with her daughters behaviour. Every time she criticises her daughters behaviour there is always an excuse for it.

I agree with therapy but it won’t help you sort Christmas.
Both need to climb down from the brink. This will be escalated over Christmas and become even an worse problem.
I read your posts about being passive to compensate. I think your role is now to go beyond UN peacekeeping but the negotiator of the peace treaty.
Your DH has a responsibility of a parent - love and support for their child.. He needs not to overreact in a vengeful manor. Someone else said he cannot use Christmas presents like this.
Your DD has to admit her behaviour is not that of an adult and admit her mistakes.

Make it clear to both of them that you want this sorted and a line drawn under it.

Well lucky you that you've never had a complex and difficult family to navigate. If it's BS to you - then please feel free to move onto a more meaningful thread.

None of it's 'fine'. Nowhere have I said it's 'fine', but it's not black and white.

@Baffledandalarmed I think the op is justifiably overwhelmed with what happened + the responses and is trying to work her way through it

The problem is that because DD and DH are at opposite ends - any alignment by me with one of them, is outright rejection to the other. There isn't a 'happy medium' and I feel cornered and sick.

This is a really awful situation for you, OP, and really they both ought to be thinking about the impact on you and your other DC. But since they clearly don't intend to, I think you need to distance yourself from both of them and focus on creating Christmas with your other DC.

To all the PPs saying, what if she kicks off in Mexico - it's perfectly possible that she only does it in the family environment, where it is safe to do so, and where her emotions are complicated by family dynamics.

I created a Mumsnet account just to respond to this post.

I feel desperately sorry for your daughter. This a young woman, not long out of childhood and still very much a young person starting her life and learning how to navigate the world, who has been severely let down.

The behaviour of her father towards her and the behaviours he has modelled for her for much of her life have clearly impacted her terribly. A rage filled and emotionally unavailable man as a father has left her unable to properly express her frustrations - and rage. I think you are right that the rage she was shown has become a learned behaviour. I do wonder if her experience with him in childhood was worse than you think it was (and it sounds awful). Was he like this with the younger siblings too, or did your eldest daughter bear the brunt of her fathers rages and disappointment?

This is the man who is supposed to be her protector, the man she should be able to go to for love and support.

You say she can keep things under control at work, at uni, and is loving towards her siblings. I think this is quite telling. She’s not a hateful person. Your husband, her father, is quite clearly a trigger for her. The rejection she’s been shown impacts how she now reacts to rejection away from this particular man, apparently now impacting her friendships and relationships.

You say that you’ve tried to get help in the past through CAHMS and the GP, efforts hampered by waiting lists etc. While I commend these good intentions, I wish you would have recognised the severity of the impact this man has had (was and still is having) on your daughter and sought private therapy for her as a child. You now have a young adult woman who cannot properly express her emotions, particularly her anger and rage. This will take years of work for her an as adult to unpick and tools to learn and be very emotionally difficult for her.

I also suspect that it may be difficult, as it is for so many young people, to come back to the family home and settle into those old family dynamics (for better or worse) after being more independent at university.

You talk about how your DH worked on himself since etc etc. Does you DD see this as him not bothering sooner? The way you describe him as he still lashing out as wanting to punish her is awful.

The violence from her is awful, for everyone, including her. As another poster has said, and I’ll concur, as a young woman with learned rage expression, you don’t feel in control. She needs help with this. I’m very sure she knows it too - you say she is sorry.

I genuinely think your DD and DH need space from each other. I don’t think your DD can heal and work on herself with any contact from this man.

DD is absolutely beside herself that he slapped her. She keeps telling me she can't believe it.
Did she think she could keep assaulting people and they wouldn't retaliate? I'm sorry but I wouldn't even have her in my house never mind funding Mexico.
OP you sound like you're determined to find a label or an excuse for her horrendously entitled behaviour.

I am starting to think this whole thread is BS

Fuck me, @Baffledandalarmed, you must have a Disney life if you don't recognise any of this.

OP in your last post you said you feel caught in the middle. You shouldn’t. You should be protecting your children and yourself from walking on eggshells around this emotionally immature man.

Have you ever been in an argument and already worked up and someone else butts in and starts shouting? My Dad would do the same thing and then act shocked when I was angry at him. She tried to de-escalate by closing her door and he continued to go on and on at her! That is not acceptable. Your DH escalates situations. Can you see how unacceptable his behavior still is? I’d tell him to fuck off if he was raging about Christmas. Fuck off. You won’t be impacting my children any more. Grow up and learn to regulate your own emotions better DH. Because I bet your younger children are listening to him rage on aren’t they. How the hell is that acceptable?!

Your DD is an adult and if she behaved that way to anyone else they would be justified in calling the police. That she has not lashed out and hit anyone else just goes to show that she can regulate, but chose not to with her dad. That level of verbal abuse and physical violent is shocking.

She needs help, but it's up to HER to get that help.

As it seems her relationship with her boyfriend is volatile I actually think that going to Mexico with him is a terrible idea. If she explodes while they are out there it will be awful.

She needs to use her savings to get proper treatment.

My nephew has similar issues, although not as severe. He's 19 now and well over 6 foot. When he explodes he physically intimidates his mum (my sister) and it's truly awful to see. It's affected his friendships and may ultimately lose him his place at University. However, he knows it's no ones "fault" but his own, and he is seeking treatment, including anti-anxiety medication / therapy and anti-depressants.

Seriously? Her Dad slapping her is not ok. He is abusive and she has probably had enough after years of dealing with it and a passive mother.

If you were describing the exact same situation but it was your son you'd be told to kick him out/call the police and that he was a dangerous abuser. Boys are magically expected to brush off shit parenting as soon as they reach 16. No one would be blaming the father for modelling terrible behaviour. You don't want to accept that your DD has behaved abominably and that as an adult she has to take responsibility for her behaviour. If she did that in public she'd be arrested for assault. No one would give a shit about her apparent inability to regulate her behaviour or that her dad was a prick. My dad was an abusive tyrant with an explosive temper - I've never hit anyone.

Oh please, speaking nicely to people like this is as effective as speaking to a brick wall. They don't understand nice and will tell you what you want to hear. Cannot believe that she behaved like a violent animal and op thinks she deserves to go on a holiday after that. Does the rest of the family not matter? Your other kids? I dare her to kick another man in the balls and see him have any kind of understanding for her 'poor lamb' excuses. But yet her dad must take the abuse.

My concern is that she cannot say this behaviour could occur when at the airport or on the plane, and this would absolutely result in her arrest, and especially if when in the sky huge charges.
If she says she can guarantee it wouldn't happen then she's saying its under her control and she's choosing the behaviour, so either way Mexico shouldn't happen.

Seriously? Her Dad slapping her is not ok. He is abusive and she has probably had enough after years of dealing with it and a passive mother.

He slapped her immediately after she kicked him in the nuts. And this is not the first time she's been physically violent towards him. It's the first time her victim has ever retaliated though and she can't get past that.

It's like domestic violence is being excused, overlooked and exonerated on this thread because the victim is male and (sorry, OP) previous form for being a twat.

Her dad has been dishing out the abuse for years. This young woman is a product of her childhood and now faces years of therapy to unpick the behaviours her awful father has modelled and divvied out on her.

I haven’t had a chance to read all of this thread but my daughter was very similar. I am an only parent and it’s been hard. I mostly tried the tough love approach as well but it doesn’t really work. She has felt unloved and neglected by me as a result.

My daughter is a few years older than yours and starting to come out of it. I believe therapy has helped. I believe she has something causing this behaviour which she can’t control and it comes out mostly on me as the the closest person who she can afford to lose it with. She can’t afford to let her guard down at school or uni or in front of friends and it is hard work for her holding it all together when not at home.

Whether it is autism ( as one therapist told me) or borderline personality disorder, or depression and anxiety I still don’t know. Autism would not have been diagnosed officially as she managed to hold it together at school. I was told this by the therapist when we filled in the assessment forms and got the school input some years ago.

When she used to be physically violent with me nothing could stop her until one day I decided I had had enough and I pinned her to the floor and sat on her to stop her hurting me. We sat like that for 30 minutes until she calmed down. She never hit me again after that. I would think that your DP should be able to restrain her without either of them being hurt whilst calmly telling her it is not acceptable to be physically violent and that it won’t happen again in your house from either side. He needs to apologise to her and explain that he was pushed over the edge. That next time he will restrain her until she calms down without hurting her. He must be feeling bad deep down and he needs her to hear that from him.

My solution to the Mexico problem would be to say that you both don’t want to ruin her trip but that you will spend the money on therapy instead for her Christmas present in order to help all of you. Maybe family therapy? Buy her a journal so she can put thoughts on paper and release some of her emotions and try to make sense of it all.

However I would also lend her the flight money with an agreed plan that she pays it back in a certain timescale as agreed between you all. That way she gets the consequence but doesn’t lose the holiday. She will have to work very hard over the summer and maybe forgo things in order to pay it back. She also has to agree to the therapy to help her cope better with life and anger issues.

I hope that in the next 4 years or so she will mature a lot and benefit from the therapy and start to learn strategies to help herself, with support from both of you. This has started to happen with my daughter and I hope it will give you a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I entirely sympathise with you and wish you all best with this difficult situation. It is not as straightforward as just punishing her as others have advocated. I expect that deep down both she and your DH hold a lot of shame for their behaviours and need understanding which I can see you already have to some extent. Good luck x