Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

For now, I would focus on Christmas and tell your DH straight that he’s NOT to ruin your family’s Christmas. You all have a right to enjoy Christmas and how dare he mess it up for everyone else. Quite frankly, he can go elsewhere if he’s going to do that.

I'm a bit 😐 at the idea of someone who has just been the victim of what (one can only assume) was a very painful assault being dictated to about having to sit down to Christmas turkey with the perp and having to suck it up or go elsewhere so as not "ruin" Christmas for everyone else.

Does domestic violence only count when it's partner vs partner or adult versus child?

Also whether she 'deserved' the slap or not, a parent is supposed to be a safe space and so DH's next steps should be seen in that light - he must be the adult in the room, he must recognise he frightened her and apologise, but he must also make it clear that violence is never acceptable and she has also deeply hurt him, both physically and emotionally.

Their anger towards each other doesn’t trump the OP’s snd her other DC’s right to have a nice Christmas.

In the OP’s shoes, I’d tell ( not ask!) them both to think about others snd not ruin everyone else’s Christmas.

Your dh is not wrong here re the trip . She needs to see a psychiatrist.

I don't think you should take away her Christmas gift of the flights. You badly need to sort this, but taking advantage of the fact it's Christmas and the opportunity it affords to mete out punishment isn't a solution. What would you have done if it weren't Christmas and she didn't want flights paying for? Because there won't always be a big material penalty to inpose so you need to find other ways to teach consequences. I think you should give the gift, but after that hard boundaries and consequences she knows of in advance. Plus therapy.

OP, is she going to be OK in Mexico?

Has she done such a type of holiday before without her family?

If boyfriend (understandably) walks off and leaves her when she flies into a rage, how is that going to work on (his) family holiday, overseas in a place where she (presumably) doesn't speak the language?

Regardless of her not going as a punishment - from everything you've described, it sounds as if it was rather optimistic to plan for her to go in the first place?

Honestly I can't believe people thinking it is ok for that woman to repeatedly insult and hit her father, blocking the doorway so he could not walk away and he is in the wrong for slapping her?

I am very much against violence and male violence in particular, but even a saint would have slapped that woman. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she beats up her boyfriend.

Oh absolutely, she must have been so frightened, being asked to be quiet, slamming a door on someone, then several actions of violent assault, she's a poor lamb who absolutely deserves a holiday to Mexico. The horror of people not just standing still and accept being beaten by her, terrifying for her.

Agree "easily" was not the best word to have used, for the very reason you state.

My point was that the BF is in an easier position to get away from the abuse as compared to the OP and DH because there is no familial or legal tie keeping them together. I'm not disputing the emotional tie.

Ok, I feel I have experience of a similarish situation, tho my dc is only 11. Like you, DH flew off the handle repeatedly when dc was a toddler/preschooler. He also repeatedly admitted it wasn't good enough and went to counselling... it wasn't long term enough imo and it wasn't a magic bullet by a long shot but ht has always acknowledged his issue, always apologised to dc etc. He no longer reacts like this but our marriage has not ever recovered. It wasn't all the time etc etc but it was the polar opposite of my own DF and my own approach. Some wouldn't have thought it a big deal.

Anyway, getting to the point, we had a blow up a month or so OK when dc went from 1-100 in seconds and was completely shocking and out of order in his words and actions. Not quite your dd but not far off it. I immediately said I wasn't bringing him to promised event later that evening. He was distraught, distressed, apologetic. I know many here won't agree with what I did but I couldn't follow through as I knew I had said that very much to 'get him back' rather than to teach etc. So I made a decision to bring him and told him the following day we three would be sitting down for a very serious discussion and that this could never happen again. I believe it was the right approach as he was incredibly grateful as well as contrite and was v open to the talk the following day. I know it is different ages.

When we spoke the next day he could trace back where his explosion had come from and more importantly, on my encouragement, dh spoke openly about his behaviour in the early years and about his own childhood, in an age appropriately way. He apologised for not showing him the way and his role in dc's regulation difficulties. So far , so good, things are going very well since. Not perfect by a long shot but I feel we have to sort this now. I also told him if it happened again there wouldn't be a second chance, that the consequence would be enforced and to consider that a warning because there wouldn't be another. I felt offering him support was more beneficial than causing further upset and resentment. In the end, we are his parents and have to show him the way. I have got more stricter in terms of pulling him up on speaking to me with a certain tone etc and at the same time, I've made time for chats and nice times together too -NB.

I would take Mexico off the table for now and get your problem solving heads on. Your dh can't get himself back to calm on it then you need to take charge here and tell him you expect his support. Not to guilt trip him but I'd be saying that you'll never know how things would be for dd if he hadn't been as he was, and that you need now for him to look at this as a way to make things good. I hope that's of some help. Best of luck OP. 💐

Good point.

There has been a lot of concern about her behaviour if she goes on the trip. I understand that concern but am not too worried if it goes ahead They (her and BF) did a two week summer holiday together, have done festivals, weekends and she has travelled with friends before.

Perhaps I should have said that, yes, this all started because she was having an argument with her BF but they have been together two years and this is actually really rare (which is why she was upset) and he is the least triggering person for her to be around. She is her best self with him 95% of the time.

but I appreciate there is always a chance with DD and I need to factor this in.

OP, please do try to access DBT for your daughter. It is absolutely transformative for most people who use it and is the gold standard treatment for BPD which even if your daughter doesn't have she clearly has some of the traits (self harm, extreme emotional responses).
It is hard to access on the NHS but id persevere and go private if you have to.

Let this be the turning point. Redirect the money you were going to spend on flights into getting her a private psychiatric assessment and extensive counselling. The boyfriend’s parents should be kept in the loop as to what is happening your end as it’s only fair.

I would not confirm Mexico right now as I would see this as a watershed moment for both her and your husband, BOTH of whom need therapy and treatment. Your daughter needs a lot of support to find out what her diagnoses might be (I can't guess, there's a lot of options) as it's very unlikely nothing is underlying that. Your husband needs to urgently go to therapy as well, as his behaviour might be a bit better, but it's not solved in any way and given her extreme behaviour, lashing out in the future is not an option, it may get him a criminal record as well.

I would not confirm Mexico with the parents, as their son deserves much better than having a violent aggressive screaming girlfriend who is unstable on holiday, she should not be raising her voice to her boyfriend like that.

I think if you take the approach that you have some problems and we need to seek help before we start living normally again and holidays and stuff, this might help her see you aren't blaming her but equally you can't go on.

This isn't a put your foot down situation, it's a seek urgent help and support situation.

I am looking at a list of registered DBT therapists that someone posted upthread. How on earth do you choose from 140 random names....?

I've known someone whose behaviour was a bit like the DD described here. She had chronic PMDD. I'd strongly advise not sweeping her behaviour under the carpet. As you say, a boyfriend, employer, etc has quite a lot of control in this situation since they can simply get rid if her behaviour becomes too much, but her family, including any future children she might have, aren't nearly so fortunate.

Home - Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) Tools - free resources she can start to look at.

Use the money that would have paid for her flight for private therapy from someone used to working with personality disorders. It is vital this is done soon, because she will eventually start doing this in environments where there are huge consequences, like losing jobs or getting into legal trouble.

It is not true she does not have control. She is making choices here - the issue is that she has done this for so long it does not feel she is making a choice, its just automatic. But habits can always be undone if there is motivation to do so. She needs to apologize as her assault on DH was far more serious than his on her. He should apologize too.

You say you have been a bit soft on her to compensate for DH. I wonder if she is acting out some of your resentment towards your husband for his past behaviour. It is not unusual for children to take on parental issues this way.

@WGACA cross posts! I was about to suggest a private psychiatrist appointment! This cannot go on and specialist support needs to be sought.

It does sound like there could be more going on. I used to have rages that don’t sound a million miles away from your daughter.

In adulthood I have been diagnosed with autism and ADHD. A lot of my meltdowns were in reaction to what I believed was Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) which is very common in people, especially girls, with ADHD.

I also have a diagnosis of Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (EUPD), previously know as Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and your daughters symptoms do sound like they might fit with that too.

Did your daughter start taking the low dose of antidepressants when they were offered? I used to take sertraline and whilst I’ve also needed lots of therapy to support me in regulating my emotions the anti-depressants certainly helped whilst I was on the waiting lists and helped to make things feel less extreme.

Firstly, your daughter has watched you being shouted at and lashed out at by your husband and she’s watched you tolerate it. She’s seen that there have been no repercussions for him. Why would she think that bad behaviour leads to big punishments?

Secondly, her behaviour is appalling. 100% no Mexico trip. What message would it send? Not just to her but your other children? She started the behaviour and your husband initially did the right thing. She ended up assaulting both of you. She’s an adult and many have been arrested for far less. She should be ashamed of what she did and ‘losing control’ isn’t an excuse to not be very sorry.

The boyfriend sounds like a toxic influence on her mood and you shouldn’t be encouraging her relationship with him when a) it’s causing these tantrums and b) he’s being exposed to her abusive behaviour especially as a young person.

Any money reserved for Mexico needs to be spent on anger management counselling for her AND your husband and then relationship counselling for all of you.

I sense that you’re good cop and you try to make the peace with daughter. It undermines your husband trying to discipline her and it doesn’t present a sense of being united. She has well and truly fucked up here. Learning this lesson in this environment is preferable to her being in Mexico, having a barny with her boyfriend and smashing a glass over his head.

I don’t know where to start on your husband’s assault of his child but you seem to have made peace with that. Again, people have been arrested for far less.

Is that coming from bf's parents? Do they know the level of her violence and aggression, and the result of her behaviour recently? Not only would I be strongly discouraging the relationship if I was them, I would ^absolutely' not want to have her on a family holiday!

OP did your daughter really think that her father would continue to fund her Mexico trip after she has assaulted him (and also assaulted you)?

I'd like to know this as well. Or is she still hung up on how he slapped her across the face after she kicked him in the nuts?

I note that in the OP you make a big point that when she was saying "hit me then" no-one would ever/had ever hit her - but she wasn't actually wrong to think your DH might be provoked into it, was she?

Her trust will have been hugely, possibly irretrievably broken if she thought she was safe to say that because although he clearly wanted to hit her he wouldn't actually snap, but then he actually did hit her.

Also, if he was restraining her hard she might easily have gone into a fight or flight panic and honestly not fully understood/known what she was doing - just a blind panic struggle to get free (obviously that wouldn't be the case for the earlier part where it was her being verbally aggressive).