Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Jeez OP, this sounds like an awful Household! Where are your other DCs when this is happening? As much as I agree he shouldn't have slapped her, I'm behind him 100% that you shouldn't pay for the Mexico flights. I wouldn't be stopping her from going but there's no way I was contribute towards the trip or help at all. I would also suggest she finds elsewhere to stay when coming back from Uni, her behaviour sounds horrific.

I don’t think unfortunately she has been prepared to enter the world very well with her poor behaviour, poor excuses, antisocial violence and general attitude.

What you want to do is change her behaviour.

What you need to ask yourselves is 'will taking her holiday away change her behaviour - or will it just make her resentful and more distant but your DH feel better because he has 'won' and 'punished' her.

He doesn't want to take away her holiday as a reasonable and responsible consequence, he wants to lash out and punish her in anger - the very behaviour you want her to stop.

Your daughter has either learnt this behaviour from her dad or she has inherited whatever is causing it. Are either of those things her fault? It could be ADHD, ASD, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder who knows.

Your dd is really struggling, she has already self harmed, there needs to be consequences to this but much better consequences would be - if you want to still go to mexico then you need to start getting help for your behaviour. I'd suggest you tell your husband the same, he sounds vile to me slapping his own child.

The main thing is that you want the consequences to actually change her behaviour - and you will not punish this anger out of her.

What will happen if she totally loses it in Mexico?

Her behaviour is disgusting. Your husband is right, she needs to learn through tough love. She had no consequences to make her stop in her tracks. I feel sorry for you and your husband, no-one deserves to be assaulted over nothing.

This resonates for various reasons. Our dd was very similar (she's matured now). She now has an adhd diagnosis if that's relevant, it's quite a thing in our immediate and wider family, some are diagnosed. Could be coincidence...
We had smashed windows, physical violence as well as a lot extreme substance misuse and low level theft.
Anyway. Back to the rage and the gift. Agree with posters who suggest to separate them. Your DD has an issue. This may be able to be helped via GP , therapy whether private or NHS. And/or a really honest chat about boundaries and issues and behaviour expectations going forward. You may even go so far as to say her visits will become unsustainable for more than a few days if she can not find a way forward. Whatever. If you preface it with 'i feel its likely you will fly off the handle at this, if this happens please go to your room and cool doawn' and make sure she agrees first.

But... You and dh MUST be on the same page for this though, which will take a lot of groundwork, I appreciate. He is still locked in and angry and in my family with all the adhd diagnoses, we would obviously see it in this light. A plan of action, a pathway, red lines, you and dh can draw this up together. If you cant show her an emotional path through this the pattern may repeat for her in the future.

The gift is another matter.
It's gone beyond a punish-so-she'll-learn solution.
When the time is right, you can appraoch her and stop this cycle.

Can I add my dd is lovely now, can harness her energy and aside from various drama lama phone calls and being a hyper ball of energy is caring, successful and loving.

I think her boyfriend and his family would be appalled by your daughter.

I would not be surprised if she would be getting dumped pretty soon - I don’t think she has to really worry about missing out on Mexico anymore as I doubt she would be welcome.

I would also not be allowing her to live in the family house any longer.

Thank you all. Some of your posts of personal experiences are especially helpful. @SpidersAreShitheads and @Ladamesansmerci - thank you especially for such thoughtful and insightful posts.

I am hitting head against a brick wall with DH at the moment. He is ready to remove 'Christmas' in its entirety at the moment. He has form for sweeping and dramatic threats and I obviously won't let this happen.

DH does have a lot to answer for. We have discussed many times the fact that he is trying to hold DD to account for her learned behaviour whilst nobody has ever held him to account. I have as much as possible - but any attempt by me to discuss with his wider family (at the time) was shut down and I was left to deal with him. Because he was knee-deep in the trauma of shit childhood, double-grief and family betrayal, I made MANY excuses for him which - with the benefit of hindsight and the collective wisdom of Mumsnet (seriously - I didn't understand what was happening 10 year ago in the way I do now) I may not have tolerated. I didn't really understand the long-term impact or the un-picking that would need to be done. I just saw the person I loved in terrible pain and therefore tolerated some terrible behaviour.

Things I definitely agree with.

Getting DD whatever help she needs
Violence - no matter what - is not acceptable and comes with consequences
DH (and I by submission) take some responsibility
I have to minimise shitness for other DC
Mexico - it IS a red herring but it's hard because it's a priority for BF and family and they have planned and are texting me about it all the time so it feels urgent. I still don't know.

I think even is there is something else at play, she can control herself as she manages it away from the family home.

I would assume therefore she has no respect for you or your DH, unless he was more abusive than you are letting on, I would not blame your DH for that, as your other DC do not behave like that.

My DH was volatile in my younger years, I don’t attack people.

She needs to learn, I am with your DH.

I would also prioritise my other DC this Christmas, she brought this on herself.

@blackberrychutney well we were that "awful household" for a bit, hopefully we would meet your high expectations now.

I'm sure you'd cope a lot better than we did.

While her past experiences may explain her behaviour, they don’t justify it, make it acceptable, or mean that anyone else is obliged to tolerate it.

By that logic, is the DH not responsible for his actions because of his experiences in childhood? She’s 18, and unless she lacks capacity she’s responsible for her own behaviour.

You’ve got a lot to cope with, OP. 💐

For now, I would focus on Christmas and tell your DH straight that he’s NOT to ruin your family’s Christmas. You all have a right to enjoy Christmas and how dare he mess it up for everyone else. Quite frankly, he can go elsewhere if he’s going to do that.

Put your phone on silent for now, you don't need to respond to messages straight away. File them for tomorrow.

Back your husband with not paying for Mexico, but neither of you can stop her going as she is an adult.

Further to my post about you being softer to compensate, yore husband needs to know you back him. So tell him you agree re withdrawing payment for Mexico but that you'd like to discuss further ramifications in a few days / after Christmas when you'vebeen able to put a bit of time between you and the incident.

Remind your husband that he can't banish Christmas because he's angry and you're going to have a nice one together. It might be a good idea for your dd to spend it wither her bf if they have her.

One thing at a time. When your husband feel supported, you will hopefully be able to reason with him.

That reads like cluster B, possibly Borderline personality disorder (and no, I’m not diagnosing her).

Just try some of the same techniques on your dh as have been suggested here, but give hime a bit of space first (although I can see this is hard as Christmas is fast approaching!).

Then tell him how it is. Mexico= still happening. Family dynamics = work in progress.
Love for each other = always there

@Allwelcone What on earth are you talking about - how you would know about my expectations is absolutely ridiculous as is your comment.
Try taking a day off bring offended by everything, you might enjoy it.

I'm sorry to hear your situation. I might be stating the obvious, but nobody has rage like that unless there is an underlying problem. She sounds very unhappy and troubled deep down. I think the kindest thing you can do for your daughter is get her the help she needs.

I can understand why your husband has taken a firm 'no trip stance'. She needs to learn that her behaviour is unacceptable. As someone suggested above, using some of the money towards professional counselling and contributing what you can afford towards the flights if she engages maybe an option Alternatively (and I know the talking therapies waiting list is ridiculously long unless you have exceptional circumstances) her university will offer some kind of counselling service for free. Perhaps having a grown-up conversation with her before Christmas when she is calm, saying that you would like to pay for the flights but on the condition that gets help and there is an improvement in her behaviour.

If she hasn't already she should absolutely apologise for assaulting your husband. Likewise (though I am on his side), he should apologise to her for slapping her. If the message is "violence is not acceptable under any circumstances" it would otherwise send mixed messages.

I hope things get better for you. It sounds like a really hard situation.

My only contribution is that acupuncture helped my twelve-year-old when she had a hormonal imbalance and, among other things, felt she had no control over what came out of her mouth.

It sounds like your dd has more serious problems than just that, but I do think it could help.

I hope you can find a solution, OP, because with that behaviour she could end up seriously hurting someone. Your poor DH

Then tell him how it is. Mexico= still happening.

Realistically, he is the one who gets to say whether the trip is still happening, because OP said that she wouldn't be able to afford the flights herself.

If I were him, I wouldn't be jumping up to pay for flights for someone who kicked me in the balls and punched my wife in the head.

I agree with not paying for flights, she assaulted her father!
Withdrawing funding for uni is a bit dramatic though, maybe that can be discussed further?

I feel worried for her BF most of all, this poor kid is presumably a teenager, why should he have to learn diversion tactics to deal with his Gf's rage?
If the sexes were reversed, I would urge my daughter to break up with an uncontrollable rage filled partner.

Hmmm lots of possibilities here that need exploring with a professional. What did DD say her counsellor said? A family member of mine was a lot like this as a teenager but is now a lot better regulated. She too had an angry aggressive father growing up who is now 'reformed'. I'd ask DH why he thinks it was OK for him to be a ball of rage for years when he finds it so unacceptable in her now (it obviously IS unacceptable, but for him to be dead set on punishing her in so many ways is also unacceptable and double standards).

I actually wouldn't decide on Mexico now, I'd tell her you need to find a way forward as a family and until then you can't decide on this. What's happened is very bad but it isn't all on her so it's unfair to punish her in this way. I think you should all go together for family therapy in addition to your DD's specific medical/psychiatric/specialist support. She may well be suffering from insecure attachment which is why she is having relationship problems across the board - she could on some level be afraid of being rejected so is pushing others away first. Though that doesn't explain the rage itself. I'd definitely see if she can see someone to explore an adult autism diagnosis.

In the immediate term @MarmiteMakesMeHappy can you let the bf's parents know you aren't sure if you can afford the flight and it's on hold right now? Just to give you some breathing space.

As for Christmas, is she really going to sit down with the man who slapped her across the face? I don't know if trying to force a family day will work, and it might juat cause another blow up.

She really deserved that slap. She is out of control, she is an adult! She would not dare to do this to anyone outside of her family , she knows to reserve this for her family. I would ban her from entering the home and coming on holiday. She is going to ruin it for everyone. She is the problem here. Stop with the excuses for her. You know very well she won't do this to anyone else, so she is in control of who she inflicts violence to.

I also think you need DH to apologise for hitting her, and her apologise to him, or else I agree with the PP Christmas is already going to be ruined. They are both still seething - you need to help them find a way to reconcile.

Nope OP stand with your DH he's right on this one.

She needs this consequence or your setting the scene for more issues and possibly more physical altercations because she knows with enough apologies you'll go soft. Yes there may be other factors at play but she needs to see through the help or suffer the consequences.