Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Torn between DH and DD

700 replies

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 10:49

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
HowToSaveAWife · 22/12/2023 14:21

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy oh wow Op. I was your daughter. High functioning, heavily masked, undiagnosed ADHD with severe rejection sensitivity dysphoria, auditory processing disorder, PMDD, self harming, extremely high cortisol (does she have morning rage?) And I can't explain it but the rage that would seep through my veins in those moments of fury I could have run through walls... I wasn't physically violent but I could verbally lash out like an Olympic boxer and then it would pass and I would be totally dumbfounded as to why I was so mad. Then I had kids, my life blew up and I was diagnosed at 32... And it is astounding it wasn't spotted beforehand.

To answer your actual question: no she shouldn't go on the trip. ND possibility aside, she needs to learn consequences to severely assaulting someone and provocation.

Instead I really do think that money should be put towards a private assessment.

I cannot tell you how my life has changed for the better now I'm diagnosed and medicated. So much misery and self hatred for years - I'm pretty sure I would have wound up dead from the stress alone of being a constant whirlwind had it not been picked up.

I hope your DD gets the help she needs.

Butchyrestingface · 22/12/2023 14:21

I am not too worried about BF. He has most of the power in the relationship and is not scared of her. If she is horrible to him, he walks away and leaves her to it.

Has your daughter ever hit her BF and friends? If not, this would suggest she DOES have some control. If she hits other people outside of the family, she will likely end up with either 1) a sore face 2) a criminal record or 3) both.

Your husband's past behaviour may have a role to play in her lashing out at you, but I wouldn't be paying for her to off on jollies with the boyfriend. Wouldn't want to inflict a potentially violent person on another family, for a start. She's lucky her father hasn't phoned the police and I'd be inclined to tell her that if there is ever a repeat performance of this, the police will be called. She is an adult who can live independently and neither of you deserve to be getting smacked about in your own home.

Appleofmyeye2023 · 22/12/2023 14:22

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 11:03

So she manages to keep a lid on work and uni behaviour, but has had massive blow outs with friends and BF. If she feels close to someone and feels that she has been hurt or wronged by them - she will flip. It's always when she feels 'wronged' or rejected. She seems to feel things so hard and cannot control her response

Sounds like she may be abusive towards boyfriend and at that age it is toxic for him.
id be pulling out of funding Mexico trip for that reason alone. Do not get involved in facilitating a relationship in any form (including long term travel commitments) in case bf needs to get out quick. Sounds like he does

irrrespecitve of what’s causing these outburst she needs some serious professional input. Yep, could be in part caused by dh past behaviour but that’s all speculation by you and others posters. It could equally be mood disorder they both have genetically. Or it could be something else. Don’t play psychologist on the whys. Do the only thing you can and make it conditional on her living at home that she gets professional help, and engages with you in getting that

unless she acts now, her life’s relationship could be blighted by this tendency to lash out to those she trusts. She needs to get this sorted.

dpnt pitch the x,as money as present towards therapy though.

you have 3 days to sperewte out Xmas form what has happened and make a good Xmas possible. Take her aside now and explain why Mexico is off cards in terms of your financial input. Pitch is that you don’t think her relationship is healthy for her bf and you aren’t committing m9ney to something that could go very wrong if she doesn’t control her moods. Then talk about options of how to get help and how you and dh will support that. Yep, dh needs to apologies for physically hurting, but state you expect her to apologise for all the times she hurt him as well.

then get her a couple of small presents for Xmas day
if she refuses to accept she has a problem or apologise then you also ne3d to spell out that you will, if it happens again, withdrawer all financial support and allow her to enter the home. If she attacks anyone physically again you will call the police. No ifs and buts

that’s it. It’s a cross road. You need to be firm and consistent now

Rainallnight · 22/12/2023 14:23

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 13:47

She is open to therapy help. She would absolutely go. She wants to make this stop. I just want to get it right and have been trying to go through channels that all seem to come to a dead end (GP/CAHMS/Local Support)

I think her idea of DBT is a very good one. It’s a very good treatment for what some people call personality disorder but is increasingly recognised as complex trauma (which she could have as a result of your husband’s behaviour)

This could be a good place to start though you should also make sure that any therapist is also registered with the BACP.

https://sfdbt.org/register-of-accredited-sfdbt-therapists/

Register of Accredited Therapists and Supervisors - Society for Dialectical Behaviour Therapy

To become an accredited therapist of SfDBT you must adhere to a set code of conduct. Here you wil find the contact details of those who have chieved accreditation

https://sfdbt.org/register-of-accredited-sfdbt-therapists/

Brefugee · 22/12/2023 14:23

Fairylightfurore · 22/12/2023 10:59

I think that fair. I wouldn't be paying for her to go to Mexico. I would repurpose the money and pay for private counselling for her. Maybe come to an agreement whereby if she attends the counselling you with give what you can afford towards the flight? Obviously your DH needs to apologise to her. He was completely out of order hitting her. I would maybe call the boyfriends parents explain the situation and say that you understand if they need numbers for Easter now but unless and until she gets help it's a hard no from you both. I get she's 18 and an adult but she's behaving like a toddler.

She needs to apologize to him, then he can apologize to her.
I'm with DH. But I also agree the money could go to private therapy.

Christmas may be awful, OP, discuss with your other DCs now about how to handle things

HamBone · 22/12/2023 14:23

Haven’t RTFT so sorry if I’m repeating others’ advice.

Your DD is an adult so your DH can’t prevent her going to Mexico-but he certainly doesn’t have to pay for her flights. He shouldn’t cut her uni allowance**, that’s for her day-to-day living expenses. Just don’t give her the extra money

As your DD is an adult, she needs to seek help for her anger, you can support her, but you can’t do it for her, iyswim. I’d sit her down (just the two of you) and talk it through. Emphasize that what she’s done is assault in legal terms, as well as verbal abuse. If she does it to her bf/a friends and they report her to the police, she’ll be in trouble.

Whatever the underlying causes (Dad being angry growing up, etc.), she need to address it now, because it has to stop. Good luck, OP. 💐

BalletBob · 22/12/2023 14:23

Devonshiregal · 22/12/2023 14:13

Probably because it’s not just him. He might be openly volatile but the op (at the very least) allowed it and is therefore a massive head fuck to her daughter… basically saying he can be badly behaved and the wife will stick up for him, but if the daughter is badly behaved then she’s a crazy bitch who deserves punishment.

these parents want to have it both ways - volatility towards the child but the child can’t be volatile towards them. (Even though they conditioned her to be that way. It’s gaslighting. And they need to do the work to undo their mess but it’s easier to blame the kid)

Totally agree. And just look at how many people (women? Mothers?) here who are completely ignoring and not even mentioning the years and years of abuse by the husband, but calling this girl all the names under the sun and happy to pin it all on her. Telling her mother to kick her out before Christmas.

Honestly OP, you and your husband have really done a number on this poor girl. She needs serious help and some guidance before she ruins her life, but no parent who can offer that to her.

sunights · 22/12/2023 14:25

I think your DH is being incredibly selfish given that his decision is messing up everyone else's Christmas, especially yours!
He also isn't taking responsibility for his past (non)parenting, let alone his current "poking the bear" when he knew she was upset by inital phone call with BF and insisted to coming into her room before she'd had a chance to calm down.
I appreciate I am on DD's side, and would advocate telling him to stay with other family/friends for xmas and getting your daughter back to have a nice day with her and other DCs before you lose her.

diddl · 22/12/2023 14:26

I think it's fair enough to say that you assaulted me & your mum so flights will no longer be paid for.

Beyond that though I think he should leave it.

It sounds as if it would be really unfair for her to go away with her BF's family if she is this volatile.

Blocking her dad from working because she wanted a resolution there & then?

That's all kinds of fucked up!

wishmyhousetidy · 22/12/2023 14:27

My teen daughter has behaved exactly like this and her dad is not in the slightest an angry man so don’t think husbands behaviour necessarily explains dd behaviour.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 22/12/2023 14:27

Aww, sweetheart, sounds awful. Your daughter really needs some tough love. She is an adult now. Bet she can regulate herself when a lecturer or colleague pisses her off! It's just easier, with no repercussions for the people close to her to speak/treat like shit to.
I wouldn't withdraw the flight from her but you and dh must stand together and let her know she has crossed a line and their will be consequences should she choose to "flip out again.
My youngest (now 22) was a volatile wee monster when younger, so understand your pain, honey.
My mantra was always "actions have consequences"
Good luck
It will get better xx

Santaiscomingsoon · 22/12/2023 14:28

PMDD? Is she nice for a few weeks then uncontrollable at other weeks?

Crazycrazylady · 22/12/2023 14:29

Honestly op. I don't think you should let your daughter go for another reason.
You've grown used to her rages but please let me point out that they are not normal.
If she goes to Mexico and has an argument with her boyfriend and behaves like that at his parents house. They will kick her out of the house and she will be alone on a strange place.

Honestly she needs urgent help before she ends up in jail.

Appleofmyeye2023 · 22/12/2023 14:30

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 13:22

To answer some questions:

Yes, it's possible that DH has something going on as well. Unfortunately, he grew up in a very old-fashioned, misogynistic household and sees things very black and white. Most of the time, he dismisses any suggestions of mental health disorders, and thinks that behaviours are 'solved' through discipline and personal effort. He is very hard on himself, so was able to turn his behaviour around himself with no support. He therefore thinks anyone can do this. The problem with this is that whilst he is much more in control now and kind and tolerant and more open minded - it doesn't change his core beliefs. He genuinely thinks he can 'fix' DD with consequences. And that it is up to her to improve her behaviour. He is not against her getting help but he doesn't really think it begins and ends with that. He says she is rude, defiant and out of control and THAT is the route of all our problems. That is the crux of everything I feel conflicted by. I can't see how this behaviour would benefit anyone - and I see the pain and destruction DD suffers from the fallout so I can't help thinking that if DD could stop this, she would.

DH is furious today. Really angry with DD. I can't really reason with him when he is like this. He has got much better but is far from perfect and he is still emotionally immature. He just keeps saying "enough. She has had enough chances. I'm not paying for anything and she isn't having friends round and she isn't doing this and she isn't having that...." basically wanting to punish as hard as he can.

I know there are people on this thread that would support that. I don't.

DD is not unkind to her siblings ever. DS is very close in age to her and they are best friends. She adores him and is protective and loving to him. My other DD is younger, but DD is kind and patient and loving with her.

I am not too worried about BF. He has most of the power in the relationship and is not scared of her. If she is horrible to him, he walks away and leaves her to it. They were all away from a long weekend in the summer (a group of them) and apparently she started having a meltdown at the beach and he told her to grow up and went off till she calmed down and apologised. She bombarded me with calls during the three hours the rest of them went off about how they had 'left her' but they were within sight and she could have approached at any time and said 'sorry'. In the end it was resolved - she apologised and he cuddled her and was kind, but he doesn't get bullied by her.

The GP has been fairly useless. By their own admission, they are overwhelmed. I could find the money to pay for an assessment but not sure what I am looking for. I am worried about paying money i can't really afford to a self-declared therapist type person. What should I be looking for?

A few people have noted that I seem passive and don't seem to have much power in this household. I have become quite passive. I am exhausted from years of drama - first from DH and now from DD. Trying to 'fight' for my position against two such headstrong people is draining and often fruitless. I do stand up for what's right and wrong and advocate for the underdog and make my views very clear but I tend to play more of a long, thought through game.

Both DH and I are freelance. We have no money fights. SInce covid there is very little of it, but DH is more than fair and covers most of everything. I earn less and spend less. I don't have any 'spare' to pay for DD to go to Mexico or lend it to her. DH was committing money that would be hard fought for him.

“I am not too worried about BF. He has most of the power in the relationship and is not scared of her. If she is horrible to him, he walks away and leaves her to it. They were all away from a long weekend in the summer (a group of them) and apparently she started having a meltdown at the beach and he told her to grow up and went off till she calmed down and apologised”

golly op, re read that. She is abusing him. You have just dismissed this with a he has most power. Bollocks. Just because he doesn’t react with flight/fight/ freeze responses obviously doesn’t mean it’s water or a ducks back. They are both young, and this WILL be having an impact on him. Do his parents see this behaviour- what would you think if your son was in this situation? You’d be worried sick he was hanging onto such a difficult situation.

please don’t dismiss it. He is being upset by this as much as you or dh. Do not underestimate the damage it may do.

And it won’t help yyour daughter either. She knows what she’s doing to bf, but seemingly will not or cannot control it. The definition of a toxic relationship.

Brefugee · 22/12/2023 14:31

MarmiteMakesMeHappy · 22/12/2023 12:04

@Thisoldchestnut she can hold a job down though. She has had one p/t job for 18 months and is working another job in her Uni city. She is able to do her work although her attention span is shit to be fair.

She functions well when it comes to hard work/organisation/planning/resourcefulness. She cannot regulate her emotions or behaviour when triggered. She gets fixated on a single point and wants everyone to agree with whatever this one point it.

DH is also very stubborn.

They are quite similar.

She is at work now and I am dreading the end of her shift. DH is not budging. He thinks she needs to accept that Mexico was a luxury she doesn't deserve and the point he is making is that he is struggling to top her Uni living expenses up and why should he do that whilst she saves for a five star trip.

I can see his point of view, but I still don't think I agree.

I have come round to thinking he is right to not pay for her flight, but not right to stop her going, full stop. But he is saying that by paying for her living expenses, he is still facilitating her being able to save for the trip. He is so fixated on this being the 'right course of action'.

So you pay for it?

He has been working on himself but DD hasn't?

Frankly I think her boyfriend needs to ditch her before she assaults him, and DD needs therapy

Thatswhy11 · 22/12/2023 14:32

What is yours and DH relationship like OP??

I think your DH is cruel so if your adult DD pays for her OWN holiday her father wants to block that by refusing to pay her uni allowance? What has that part got to do with him?

diddl · 22/12/2023 14:35

At it's most basic-your husband & daughter both need to accept that they need help to work through their issues if they are at all interested in saving their relationship & their relationships with the rest of the family.

SENDhelp2023 · 22/12/2023 14:36

Dd sounds like very hard work and of course Dh shouldnt of been physical. I’d try and let her so you and dh, your other child can have nice xmas without her. New year decide what your going to do. Do you think she could be neuro diverse? Her behaviour is certainly not the norm!

Appleofmyeye2023 · 22/12/2023 14:38

I would add one more thing. Brains don’t stop developing at puberty, we now know brains still going through massive surges of neurological development in early 20s.
couple of things come out of that

  1. the impulse control centres are last to develop. Hence why teens and early 20s can behave like complete twats and take huge risks. Their intelligence, cognition etc is outstripping their impulse control. Receipt for disasters. 🤷🏼‍♀️🤣
  2. this stage is when a lot of mental health conditions start to manifest. She needs to be reviewed by GP and ideally referred .

I should have also added, start keeping a diary of events like this and general mood . Ask her to do same. This carries a lot of weight and influence with referal to Gp or mental health services for help. Keeping diaries really helps to see patterns over time. Common triggers, etc. when my exh developed mood disorders I was asked to do this as his carer - psychologist always wanted me to attend consultations to get input from these diaries. Provided valuable insight for exh treatment.

SENDhelp2023 · 22/12/2023 14:38

Oh sorry I see its no xmas, with your dh then

DaftWeeBun · 22/12/2023 14:41

Your daughter needs care and safety to address what has happened. If she has been traumatised by your husbands behaviour then her anger is hardwired and makes sense as a response to threat and it won't be under her control. What is the survival option if you are forced to live with someone you have experienced as a threat? and let's not forget the disparity in size and power when these responses were laid down in her brain. You can't just decide to switch it off because everyone else has decided it all fine now.

HamBone · 22/12/2023 14:41

That’s another argument for her getting help-there won’t be any trip to Mexico if her bf dumps her, will there. He clearly isn’t prepared to tolerate her outbursts.

Her uni probably has a counselling service, could she contact them and find out what’s available?

It’s definitely possible to “unlearn” angry reactions, but it sound as if she needs outside help to do this.

Lilithlogic · 22/12/2023 14:45

Have you thought about what may happen if she kicks off in Mexico or even on the plane?

DriftingDora · 22/12/2023 14:47

OP, your daughter needs to get help. Sooner or later, she will assault someone and cause serious hurt, which will land her in serious trouble (and could send her career straight out of the window). She needs to be made aware of this and given a strong reality check before it's too late.

She can't just lose it in life - and then blame it on being treated unfairly (in her perception). She needs to get herself some help.

Edited to say: You can't just allow this to go on. It has to stop now, before she does something that will have real repercussions on her life. It sounds like she has no control at all.

Bananabreadandstrawberries · 22/12/2023 14:48

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy

Your DD says she has no control.
That is a poor excuse.
Everyone (adult of sound mind) can exercise self control.

She sounds vile, spoilt, rude and an absolute terror.

I would definitely be cancelling her Mexico trip as well as cutting back on uni funding.