Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

🤨 on a waiting list for anger management because shes aged out of cahms & candy get an appointment for nhs but youve got the money to send her on holiday with her boyfriend 🙄🙄🙄

I'll tell you now it's learned behavour both witnessing your husband & getting away with it

Your husband literally has has nothing to apologise for. He clearly acted in defence after being violently assaulted and not for the first time.

Your daughter behaved disgustingly. Literally sounds like she's abusive to her boyfriend as well, name calling is never acceptable. I'd not be supporting her with the trip and I'd probably ask my daughter to move out if she did that.

To those saying DH is right. Do you believe that he is right in stopping her going full stop. Or just paying?

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy I do not think he should be stopping your daughter going away at Easter ( and if he threatens to withdraw her Uni funding if she tries to pay herself, will be the same thing). She is an adult. For me, the jury is out on whether she should be punished at all, depending whether she has actually got a 'condition' of some kind, which means she has difficulty controlling her emotions, but on the other hand, she needs to learn she cannot do that, whatever the reason.

I do think that in absence of any official diagnosis, your DH is perfectly reasonable to say he will no longer pay for her flights, unless he gets a genuine and heartfelt apology from her.

I do agree with others, that urgent counselling/therapy is in order, for your DD and probably you and DH too. Your DD is an Adult and is going to have to go out into the world and behave like an adult with people she interacts with. It will do her no favours at all for her to be allowed to drop the counselling, which she felt wasn't helping her. Maybe try a different counsellor? I wonder if she Autism which hasn't been identified. Girls are much better at masking that, than boys?

Regardless of his anger in her childhood, what your DD has done now, as a young adult, is not acceptable. There comes a point in early adulthood where you have to take responsibility for your own behaviour.

I would not be paying for the trip. I would leave it open to her to work extra shifts etc to pay for it, so I wouldn't stop her going. But I would say that the money that you had intended to use will now be spent on counselling.

OP has described an abusive father. There's quite simply no question about it. A man who flies into drunken rages requiring the other parent to remove the children from the house on multiple occasions is abusive. And that will create trauma. I don't think anyone is saying that it's fine to be abusive because your parent was abusive, but you can't ignore or dismiss the impact of that trauma - yes, trauma - on a child. Ignoring the root cause does not allow the behaviour to be addressed.

Sure you can oversimplify things and make it all about dishing out punishment and ignore the real problems, but there's not a cat in hell's chance that cancelling a holiday is going to solve the deep issues in this family.

Dear god this is such bullshit.
Forget all the rambling diagnosis.
Throw your husband out.
Watch your lives get a million times better. And your dd will finally be free and maybe a have a mother who shows she gives a shit about her.
The answer is staring you in the face.
Your husband is and always has been an abusive bastard and because you tolerated it, your dd is paying the price
When will you advocate for her and get rid of the cancer in your home that is your husband.

Slapping someone is not defense. It's retaliation. You may think it was justified but it certainly wasn't self defense.

Have you read The Explosive Child?

It sounds like she doesn’t have the skills to navigate certain aspects of her life and so resorts to frustration.

It doesn’t matter the cause, it will be a combination of things as evidenced by her siblings not reacting the same way.

At 18 she will cognisant enough to go through the CPS method with you.

I firmly believe that as difficult as it is, not taking this personally and changing your perspectives on DD as needing help to address the root causes of these outbursts will be a better approach for all of you.

I am so sorry you are in the middle of this by the way. It is really really hard to parent an easily frustrated child.

Daughter physically assaulted your husband, and sounds like she's pretty emotionally abusive to her boyfriend as well? Great combination...

And what's more, she doesn't even seem particularly remorseful or apologetic?

If a son had attacked his father, he'd be lucky not to be spending Christmas in a police jail cell, never mind jetting off to Mexico.

Maybe if she offered a sincere and heartfelt apology to you both, and expressed a genuine need to want to get help for whatever it is she's going through in the New Year, then (and only then) would it be okay to let her go to Mexico imo. But it seems like she's one of these teens who never thinks they're in the wrong and that the world's against them.

Rubbish. I grew up with a very violent father ( he went to prison for an extremely violent crime) but neither of us 3 children are anything like him.

I don’t agree with this.

Children like this are like this because of the skills they lack. Some children come from homes much worse and more scary and unstable than this and don’t turn out like this.

The OP can still have a harmonious family unit but it will take work and understanding, not demonising of the child who is struggling and the parents who are struggling to cope with years of volatile behaviour and aggressive outbursts.

Also by threatening to withdraw the uni funding he’s saying to her that no matter how well she does in studies, work, relationships, he has control and can take it all from her based on his whim. Completely conditional love. That would make any child volatile and highly strung. And a child who witnessed someone maintain power and control through violent rage while everyone else panders to him? Well she would imitate that example, but from a place of less power and security. He’s just tempered his rage/control/emotional immaturity and volatility into a different form (the “provokable” disciplinarian) and expecting her to be punished for the same behaviour that he was embraced and supported when he acted that way is another expression of that.

Tough situation.

There have been some very astute observations on this thread. Personally, I sit somewhere in the middle. I think DHs behaviour in the past is a huge contributor to this current problem and that withdrawal of support at a point where DD needs it most would be catastrophic for her as an individual and also for her relationship with her family.

At the same time, her ability to control herself at university and work shows she has control. I'm not saying it doesn't come at a cost to her that she has to pay later in terms of meltdowns or exhaustion but it's not the case that she can't help herself. She can. Therefore she does need to learn actions have consequences. That's not the same thing as punishment though, which in this case will only breed resentment I think.

I find it interesting that her rage is directed only at DH. That's quite telling.

I think insisting the money that was going to be spent on flights at Easter is spent on therapy now is a good consequence. It's not framed as a punishment but a supportive intervention. It has to be meant like that though. Simply withdrawing the money on its own is a consequence but won't really achieve anything other than costing her money.

DH is being an utter dick if he stops contributing to uni costs as well though. DD cannot help that the uni funding system is predicated on parents providing financial support. The government doesn't care about the health of that relationship. Fully estranged adult children can apply for an exception but that's not the current situation. If he cuts her off, the time it takes to get alternative funding in conjunction with the emotional trauma will almost certainly result in her dropping out. That's not fair and as a consequence it doesn't have a relationship to the wrongdoing, making it a completely inappropriate punishment that's unlikely to work. If anything it could potentially change her life for the worse, reducing her career options and adding feelings of guilt and inadequacy. It will make her less likely to 'behave' and more likely to develop into the angry young woman equivalent of the way he was as a younger man. Does he really want that????

Natural consequences to this are to not have DD in the house because her behaviour puts the rest of the family at risk (note not just DH). You need to make the point that exposure to this sort of rage as a bystander (like her siblings) can be just as damaging as being the target. Unfortunately, she's living proof of that with DH and that's why he needs to meet you and her half way with this by not focusing on extreme punishments. However, don't make it about DH v DD. This is about breaking the cycle by making it about her siblings (although DH needs to be held to the same standard). How, if she was my DD I'd be helping find suitable alternative accommodation and supporting her as much as possible so she did not feel abandoned.

Unfortunately, there isn't an easy fix. You can't ignore DDs behaviour just because she was traumatised in the past. That's not helpful to her. However, by addressing her behaviour but her remembering how you didn't address her father's, it will inevitably produce feelings of rejection and resentment which she's going to need professional help to unpick.

In terms of getting through Christmas, can you get DH to think about the impact on the other DC and you if he persists with his extreme punishment option rather than compromising?

"I can't control it" is something we often hear from those that abuse their partners or others.
They can control it, they don't hit other people around them. She doesn't hit you, her siblings, her boyfriend, uni lecturers, etc. She had control. She chooses not to control it around her father.

This is domestic violence and she needs to understand that. She is an adult abusing her father.

What would you do if it had been your son that had been violent? Or your husband that was violent towards your daughter? Violence is violence whether its male to female or vice versa. I'd have phoned the police on her.

If she were broadly horrible all the time, it would be easier, but she isn't

I see in your comments OP that PMDD has been mentioned. I had awful PMDD, (menopausal now) and it basically stole
half of my menstrual life. I was an appalling teenager. Symptoms can begin after ovulation until the onset of menstruation. Also, there can be cycles within cycles, eg every 3rd month it was at its peak and would wane for the next month. Symptoms can vary from woman to woman but generally are mentally extreme around dark thoughts, intense rage, confusion, vulnerable, insecure, to name just a few. Tracking every feeling every day for several months will show any patterns and symptoms.

Whatever the cause of her behaviour, she needs therapy and a diagnosis. She needs to understand her behaviour and self reflection.

I would let her come home for Xmas and buy her a small gift on the understanding that repeated behaviour will mean she has to leave. Mexico ….. I think she needs to pay for herself and you spend the flight money on counselling for her.

Good luck.

Probably because it’s not just him. He might be openly volatile but the op (at the very least) allowed it and is therefore a massive head fuck to her daughter… basically saying he can be badly behaved and the wife will stick up for him, but if the daughter is badly behaved then she’s a crazy bitch who deserves punishment.

these parents want to have it both ways - volatility towards the child but the child can’t be volatile towards them. (Even though they conditioned her to be that way. It’s gaslighting. And they need to do the work to undo their mess but it’s easier to blame the kid)

Her meltdowns sound very like my ex DJ who was then diagnosed with autism at age around 50.
Very confusing behaviour as could also be very gentle and fun. Meltdowns only ever occurred at home, actually did very well in social situations. I don't think anyone ever believed what he was like at home and think I must have turned his adult daughters against him as they don't want to see him anymore.
She certainly needs assessment for autism, ADHD and all the neuro divergent conditions. Also Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, as you mentioned criticism being a big trigger.
That is the big picture and more important that deciding on a future holiday. Her poor boyfriend and friends. If there is not an intervention soon the outlook could be very tough as people won't take abuse forever.
I would get reading about autistic meltdowns and ADHD in girls. Thankfully there are great resources around tailored to women these days.

THIS IS SO TRUE

I do compensate by being softer.

Just because she’s not always horrible doesn’t make her any less abusive. No one is abusive all the time, but behaviours do mean someone is an abuser. And your dd is one.

I’ve lived with abusive siblings. Even when they were being nice, there was low level fear that I wouldn’t have told my parents about.

Also haven't rtft completely, but would also suggest ADHD/Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria - I strongly suspect an ex of mine had this. It didn't stop me leaving him because of his anger though.

And also when I was reading up on him, I saw that the symptoms of ADHD/RSD could be the same as the effects of an abusive childhood (which he also had) which your dd undoubtedly had.

I think you need to consider deeply how you can support your dcs (through counselling etc) to counteract the effects of the abuse they all suffered. I'd also suggest family counselling.

As far as your dd is concerned, Mexico is a red herring, of course it's not acceptable to react in that way to anger. I feel that you should be speaking to her about this, and working out the best way to get through this with her. If I were you, I'd assume her and her father's relationship has irrevocably broken down and keep him away from her

As far as your DH is concerned, I couldn't stay with anyone who hit my child. Throughout your posts you seem to have been making excuses for him. You're complicit in keeping him in your dcs lives when you should have left.

Im not sure what ur actually disagreeing with , I never actually said it was OK , all behaviour is communication is not an acceptable way to excuse violence it's just an explanation. All behaviour should have Consequences I never said they shouldn't. Just because someone turns 18 doesn't somehow automatically change them into being able to control all behaviours. It needs support and therapy. Which hopefully this daughter will get and be able to deal with it.

To me it really sounds like she has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD, or sometimes known as EUPD - Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder).

I have been diagnosed with this myself and I can relate to many of her behaviours, particularly the rage and rejection sensitivity.

I have been taken off anti-depressants as it's well known that medication has no effect on people with BPD. The only effective treatment is talking therapy, namely DBT.

I'd recommend discussing this with a GP and requesting a referral to a Personality Disorder service where she can access this treatment.

Hope you're doing OK, it's a really horrid situation you're going through but you sound like a wonderful mum who really cares 💐 things will get better.

I'm very sorry you experienced that.

There is a range of responses to abuse and adverse childhood experiences; the impact it had on you won't be the same for everyone.

So your DH suffered no consequences of his anger, is furious now won’t listen to reason and clearly makes the majority of decisions unchallenged yet can’t see his part in all of this.

the boyfriend left her, as you need to - did he?

im sorry but your DH has a huge part to play in this

OP, I'm sending hugs as this sounds incredibly difficult.

Your daughter's behaviour is not normal. I'm a psychiatric nurse, and she sounds completely dysregulated in her emotions. Some people on this thread are underestimating how much her early childhood and being around a man who was very angry and also unable to regulate has impacted her. She has suffered from childhood trauma, and she is only still a child. She's 18, not 58. Even so, I work in older people's services, and our early experiences stay with us forever. She's also full of hormonal changes on top of her early experiences. It's not really surprising she lashes out at your husband. She probably has an entire childhood worth of hurt and pain. Children can't really safely express their anger towards a care giver as it's more important for children to preserve the attachment bond, which is why some children instead present with behaviours that can feel challenging. They don't have any other way to express their anger. She's now an adult, and it's a bit safer to express what is probably a lifetime of pent up rage. It's natural for children who have grown up with an abusive parent to feel intense rage towards them. I also grew up with a very angry, abusive, authoritative father figure, and I've only recently started to learn that in therapy. For years it came out as shouting matches and squabbling, and feeling instantly triggered by anything he said. When I say rage, I really mean it. I personally sometimes feel like I wish I could cause my dad harm. I obviously would never act on this, but I do safely express those thoughts in therapy.

Emotionally, it sounds like your daughter is still a frightened little girl who isn't secure in her attachment, particularly towards male figures in her life. Her early experiences will have made her hyper vigilant to signs of anger, and very reactive to any perceived rejection.

I was also very volatile when I was young. I self-harmed, binge drank, was suicidal, couldn't regulate my emotions, and would manipulate and 'act out'. I was also highly perceptive of rejection. This all mainly started when I went to uni. After 4 years of psychodynamic therapy (which is attachment based therapy) and a safe space to explore my childhood, problems with rejection and etc, I'm in a good place. I'm stable now. I'm not perfect and insecurities sometimes come out, but my mental health is good, and I can keep and maintain warm/loving relationships easily. Most importantly, I full understand myself now and I get where my feelings come from after years of thinking I was broken. You CAN heal from your childhood experiences.

Your daughter has physically harmed someone and OFC that deserves consequences. Her behaviour can be explained but still isn't justifiable. Just because she has experience trauma, it doesn't mean she can go around harming others. I think not paying for flights is reasonable tbh. Blocking accessing to education and threat obviously isn't. I agree with the poster who said redirect that money towards therapy, as your daughter really needs. Choose something attachment based like psychodynamic or humanistic. Spend some time reading about the impact of childhood on attachment. Your daughter is so young and has her whole life ahead of her. Right now she might feel like she can't control herself, but she needs support and you process trauma with the right support.

DBT can be helpful to deal with in the moment stuff- I think some places like MIND have waiting lists, but they're long.

Working in mental health services, I'd caution against seeking a personality disorder diagnosis. It's very stigmatised within mental health services and often ends up excluding people from accessing mental health support. It's controversial, but I find the diagnosis sexist and quite victim blaming. Your daughter's personality and entire way of being is not disordered, she has just had a difficult time.

As other posters have said, also consider looking at Asd/ADHD and see if they could be factors. And also keep a log, and see if she possibly has pmdd, which is like really severe pms and significantly impacts mood and functioning.

As with all mental health, ask the GP to rule out anything physical.

Sorry for your situation OP. It sounds like it's been one thing after the other. I feel sad for everyone, including you, your little girl, your other children, and to some extent even your husband, who has clearly also suffered with generational trauma from his own upbringing based on your other posts. Generational trauma doesn't have to keep going. Be the person who gets your daughter some help and stop it passing down to the next generation.

No judgement here at all whatever you decide, I ly sending love and healing vibes.