Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

She is open to therapy help. She would absolutely go. She wants to make this stop. I just want to get it right and have been trying to go through channels that all seem to come to a dead end (GP/CAHMS/Local Support)

I think you are right to consider the past relationship and her fathers rage and drinking. What you really need to remember here is this betrayal in the parental relationship occurred when she was a powerless child and he was an adult. It’s very frightening and damaging for a child when their care givers are unpredictable, reject them, belittle them and are emotionally unavailable for them. Whilst you family was in crisis and you are not necessarily to blame, the mental gymnastics a child has to do to survive emotionally can be quite profound and can last a lifetime, especially if you have a sensitive nature. Look up ACE’s and their impact on adults.if he was a drinker then look up adult children of alcoholics. She sounds like she needs someone to acknowledge quite how big an impact this had on her and some counselling to help her work through her emotions so this doesn’t fuck up her entire life. The fact that you use her siblings to demonstrate that she is somehow defective rather than your parenting is awful really. She sounds like the scapegoat of the family bless her.

I wonder whether she'll even be with her boyfriend by Easter. It sounds as though he's fed up with her behaviour. What would happen then, if they split up and the holiday had been paid for? I can't imagine insurance would pay out.

People with EUPD personalities can learn to amend these behaviours, it’s not an illness nor an excuse for shitty behaviour.

It can be seen as an illness and the behaviours can seem hard to change, but it is treatable and with therapy people can stop meeting the criteria for it, if they work hard at it.

If it's an illness (which is how plenty of reputable sources describe it) it's a treatable one, much more than most PD's.

A good gp would refer her to a psychiatrist and she can certainly ask for a referral but there will be a waiting list.

I think she needs to go private for speed because this cant go on any longer and she ought to consider putting money towards it herself.

Only a matter of time I would say.

It sounds like she might have BPD or EUPD. Which is very hard for her.. but sheltering her from consequences won't help her. If you physically attack someone you cannot expect they will then pay for your flights somewhere. I don't think your husband is being unreasonable there. And obviously slapping her was not the right thing to do but being kicked in the balls is going to generate a defensive action like that.. again what if your DD did that to a friend or a stranger in town when drunk? She can't go around doing that and expecting no retaliation as she's a fully grown adult now.
She really needs to get professional help but she also needs firm boundaries.
I understand why you have sympathy for her and the way you are trying to analyse it all.. but honestly you can't carry on blaming your DHs difficult times. Yeah he did wrong... but it's really not helpful to her to try and excuse her behaviour due to that. Because she's an adult having to function in the adult world now.. she's lost friends.. it sounds like she's actually quite abusive towards her boyfriend... and she's not really taking responsibility for it in any way that allows her to grow.
I do agree with you that as she is an adult you cannot stop her going to Mexico, that is overstepping but I certainly agree that I would not be buying her plane tickets as a present any more. Actions have consequences.
And the thing is many many people grow up with trauma in their childhood.. violent or very volatile parents.. far more than your DD has experienced.. and they do not all go through life behaving like this. As an adult you have to take responsibility for your own behaviour.. for your own sake. You can't keep saying 'I was treated wrong so this is all justified'
You sound like a very caring person and she's lucky to have you as a mum but I do think you have to stop excusing her or feeding into the narrative she's been hard done by. Of course continue to support her and try to get her proper help. But it sounds to me like she has a serious mental health issue that she needs to deal with.. and she won't if she thinks she has valid reasons for behaving how she does.
I know its hard but she physically attacked her father. That is not acceptable.

.

The reality is that she does not deserve to go to Mexico.

It's great that she has you, her siblings and this supportive and boundaried boyfriend in her life to love and care for her, and that she's so open to therapy and prepared to work on herself. NHS mental health services are so overstretched. But I think with all of that in place, she's got a positive, healthy, happy future ahead of her. Some of the posts here are so awful, please don't take them to heart. She isn't doomed to repeat his mistakes, and she can get much better.

Also, op, i think you're much gentler with her than you would be if your husband was less of a disciplinarian, because you're trying to compensate and possibly feelong guilty for the past. You both need to move a bit more towards the centre in your approaches, because I think when you see you're in opposition to each other you both feel the need to hold that position all the more.

But you're not doing her any favours either in letting her get away with so much.

And what message does this send to a vulnerable young adult whose father was not held accountable in the same way when he was aggressive and abusive during her childhood? And isn't being held accountable now for also physically assaulting her?

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy GPs can be a thing where people have to keep nagging to find the help they need. Each time there's an incident like this she could tell them. I mean, she's being physically violent, risking losing her family and romantic relationship, may have thoughts of self harm etc, someone has been violent to her as a result of her violence. She needs to tell them everything, every time, until she gets a consultant referral. If the GP are hopeless she could try a different one at the practice, or change practices.

It's good if she's willing to try stuff.

Absolutely, it's the rose tinted glasses again, I sincerely doubt the siblings feel they could honestly tell you how she makes them feel without significant fall out. Especially when And for those saying I am fixated on Mexico when we have bigger fish to fry - absolutely. But Christmas is three days away and the happiness of siblings, me, DD, DD boyfriend - and his family, DH - everyone will be impacted by a bad atmosphere and fallout from DD being punished. I am focussing on trying to get that right before I tackle the big stuff.
The bad atmosphere is fully down to her violence and aggression and having everyone dance on eggshells around her to avoid stating this fact is ridiculous!

Okay, but I'm also autistic and have ADHD, and I 100% relate to the OP's description of her daughter's rages. I struggle with rejection sensitive dysphoria massively and I work really hard to de-escalate when I feel like I'm about to tip into meltdown, because my meltdowns are awful. Even now at 33 years old, meltdowns make me feel consumed by rage that I can't control. They make me want to scream, hit/bite myself - I feel like I could smash through a brick wall like the Hulk.

I'm always deeply embarrassed after a meltdown but I genuinely feel like I can't control it once I've passed the point of no return, and I can't regulate my emotions while people are talking to me/checking on me/trying to "fix" it.

Like many autistic people, I struggle with interoception/alexithymia and it has taken a lifetime to recognise the pressure building so I can remove myself from whatever sensory input is pushing me to the edge.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be.

here is your answer. Your husband has been aggressive and volatile as she was growing…now he’s “seen the light” and is “trying” to be better but he’s left behind a volatile child.

you can’t teach a CHILD something then be shocked that they grow up behaving in the way you taught them and criticise them for it.

look at whether she has adhd - might explain the internalised rage. But equally, having a dad who teaches you to be rageful then tells you you’re out of order for being rageful is likely to cause rage. Oh and a mum who supports him as though you and he are equal opposites in arguments. SHE IS BEING WHO YOU TAUGHT HER TO BE.

I know I’ll be chastised for armchair diagnosing but just have a look into bpd/eupd. Not saying she has this but as someone with a mother and exBF with it, it came to mind straight away.

Your husband is right, she needs consequences or she'll never learn to control her behaviour.

Does she do this to her bf? her friends? her fellow students?

@User1775 OP has said her daughter has lost friendships through it.

OP has two days to go and buy DD an alternative Christmas present, the shops are not shut yet. Her DD doesn't have to be without a present on Christmas Day.

I completely disagree. CHILDREN may take longer to manage their emotions. But if you're an adult you know right from wrong. It is your responsibility to make sure you keep your emotions in check. There is no excuse for violence, if you are violent to the people you love that is a choice that you are making.

OPs daughter doesn't attack her siblings, her colleagues, her lecturers. She chooses who she attacks. Obviously growing up with a violent father and a passive mother has had a big impact. But she's a grown woman and she needs to take control of herself.

My autism and ADHD is massively debilitating, so no, not lucky me, but I am responsible for me and the way I treat others.

She started a fight, end of.

All this nonsense about childhood trauma… I mean - OP started making it sound like he was just a bit mercurial and now he’s being labelled full on abusive.

Many, many children see anger and learn rage. I did. I have NEVER crossed into the physical (I’m ADHD with impulse control issues) - that is all on her.

You are failing her by forcing someone she physically assaulted FIRST to reward her.

I actually looked back for the cause of her melt down, so already having a loud argument with bf, then she was Incensed to be asked to be quieter by dh who was on a work call and she assaulted him because of that?!

Your husband wasn't able to control himself until he was in his thirties or forties, yet he's expecting his 18 year old daughter - who is exactly like he used to be - to sort herself out pronto.

Yes an alternative present can be bought but that means the decision not to fund her trip is then made.

I think you really need to take the reins here, OP. Your DH is too embroiled in the situation and his Victorian / paterfamilias stance is going to be counter productive.

You have addressed your passivity and I totally see why you have adopted that stance. But I see you also mentioned that he grew up in a misogynistic household and I think that plays heavily into this as well. He seems to have a domineering position within the family dynamic which isn't going to help resolve this at all.

But your daughter needs consequences, not punishments and a psychiatric assessment. Some excellent suggestions for consequences have been given by other posters for you to choose from. I think that if you can you need to pull rank (for want of a better phrase) and take charge here. DH's punitive view will add fuel to the fire and you also need to show them both that a different tack can find the right path for you all. In a nutshell I think you are the only person who can take control and drive this forward constructively.