Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Absolute bullshit people diagnosing a violent bully as having ADHD and autism.
People with ADHD and autism aren't horrible people that hurt others. I have both. I have full control over my anger and have never hit anybody. I hate this message that "oh a person's violent or a lazy partner, must be autistic "

She’s not a child, she’s an adult. A violent and abusive one.

But there's nothing keeping him there, really. They're not married. Or biologically tied the way this girl's parents are. The BF is choosing to stay. He can easily walk away (easily as in physically and legally) - if he opts not to walk, then he knows what he's getting.

Gosh, I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, just OP's post, but I would say you have to separate the money/present thing from the relationship.

I mean re: uni support - it sounds like she is doing really well holding down a job and doing her uni work - especially as though it sounds as if there is some ADHD* or processing issues going on. She must be exhausted holding it all together. And well, uni is expensive so what will she do if her parents stop bridging that gap ?

I don't know, it seems they need to rebuild their relationship away from bargains and negotiations and 'I pay for this so you can't do that' kind of dynamic.

Honestly, he should have anticipated her reaction and moved away from her phone call. Then, he shouldn't have gone to see how she was. She was angry and looking for a familiar flash point to kick off against. He could have messaged her maybe to see if she wanted a chat. Softly softly, back off....

I am not saying what she did was OK btw, it really really wasn't! It was appalling behaviour. But I am pretty sure she knows that even if she can't admit it.

Don't confront it at Christmas. Just park it. It's way to stressful a time with everyone around. There needs to be a solution for sure, but right now is not the time.

*editing to add I have a DD with really debilitating ADHD and, while she is not violent (to others - she is to herself) I really recognise those rages.

(Also, you say she has lost friends. I suspect this will be a pattern throughout her life and it may be that by Easter there won't be a trip to Mexico anyway, because there will be no bf).

The fear is that she could decide to pay for herself and go to Mexico anyway, leaving him cutting off her funding, causing her to drop out of Uni. You would then be left with an aimless troubled young woman with undiagnosed psychological problems and a history of self harm. What then? No long term gain will come from this. If she was able to stop having meltdowns she would.

I'd question whether both father and daughter are on the spectrum to varying degrees, with him coping better than her.

Put the mexico money towards therapy and treatment - to capitulate will Just kick this can down the road ..

Jesus stop with the false equivalences. This is not helpful and it isn’t the issue. The child is 18! There iis something seriously wrong with her behavior periodically, not permanently, and now is the time to figure it out and try to help her.

OP needs to step up and take control or hard headed, verbally violent, and financially controlling dad will destroy the dd.

OP needs to find a licensed psychiatrist (in the US) to do an assessment to rule out ASD, PMDD and figure out if she meets criteria (which she may) for BPD (doesn’t sound like it to me because of its intermittent quality.).

OP’s husband was given tons of grace by OP in his struggles to reform (three children’s lifetimes!) All dd needs is 2-5 years of sustained therapeutic support to turn this around. Why are posters siding with the angry/aggressive adult male who terrorized his wife and children for years instead of focusing on the young adult for whom this is a make or break moment ?

Even teens can enter into abusive relationships with other teens. Saying he can easily walk away is naive.

There have been threads where OPs have been in despair at their teen sons or daughters being in controlling and abusive relationships with other teens.

Completely agree with this.

TBH there is a question over whether they are terrified of her given her behaviour. Which you cannot possibly know as they will likely never say if they are for fear of it getting back to her.

You need to prioritise your other children, OP.

And I think you are grossly naive about the how 'good' your daughter and her partners relationship is. If she is yelling abuse at him and screaming down the phone (as you have indicated) she is an abuser. If it was a boy doing it to his GF we'd all say it. So let's call it what it is.

I don't think you can salvage Christmas @MarmiteMakesMeHappy - I'm really sorry for you and this terrible situation. I would be keeping them apart. Honestly, I'd be spending it with the children and not him. It doesn’t sound like he ever faced any consequences for his behaviour, I'd start now. Whatever you do, I can't see that there's a possibility of everyone sitting down for a nice family day on Monday.

Did he drink and get angry at Christmas in particular, by the way? Are there painful memories of the season exacerbating anything now?

I think the larger point is the OP cannot be responsibe for the boyfreind along with everything else.

She has enough on her plate.

I don't blame your DH for slapping her. But also, I think she should go to México with her own money. Getting her out of the way for a bit in a new place and with his family will give her space to think. Sounds as if you are very sensible.

Does she do this to her bf? her friends? her fellow students?
No she doesn't so she can control herself and yet violently attacks you.
It sounds terrifying.

I just want to add, disregarding your DDs violence, then she has done amazingly working two jobs and putting money away. She is practically an adult and I fear that treating her as a child where her own money is concerned will backfire drastically. It is so important that teenagers (especially those dealing with mental health issues) have dominion over their own money, and I can't warn you enough of the consequences of letting these very unfortunate incidents bleed into her educational and financial efforts, which are rather admirable considering.

You might just create an even bigger problem than you have now. Because what will you do if she in her anger and stubbornness drops out to hurt your DH? Will you throw her out of your home or will you support an angry, violent teenager with no future?

She sounds very like me. I have EUPD/BPD and have been working with my psychiatrist and two psychotherapists for the past 8 years to help me manage and control it. I have had CAT and DBT which have both helped. I had massive rage issues and they have become almost completely controlled now. I have other issues as well but the rage is controlled.

I don't think a normal counsellor is going to be able to help with this (they didn't with me).

She needs to see a psychiatrist to properly diagnose her personality disorder (there are many), and then go from there with medication and therapy to help her manage and control it.

I was able to manage the problem at work until I had a nervous breakdown, but not with those close to me. Its a horrible thing to have and go through, and it carries a horrible stigma still, even though people know so much more about mental health.

I hope she gets the help she needs and my heart goes out to both her and you.

All behaviour is communication, I was taught that at my daughters speech and language therapy session. My daughter has been diagnosed woth autism and I've just been diagnosed with adhd.
Well arnt u lucky u have never been violent, did u know that majority or men in prison is undiagnosed adhd and they want to start assessing people who they come into to prison. As it will help reduce violence.

Neurodiversity effects emotions and behaviour and obviously that can be to the extreme, just because it doesn't u, doesn't mean it doesn't full stop. Just because someone can explain Neurodiversity as a reason for someone's behaviour doesn't mean they are automatically excusing it away it really annoys me equally that people assume that!

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy

OP did your daughter really think that her father would continue to fund her Mexico trip after she has assaulted him (and also assaulted you)?

But then the OP's husband's past behaviour was even less acceptable. She had to take the kids out of the house for their own safety, ffs! He shouldn't talk about his own daughter without reflecting on his own behaviour.

Is there any way you can delay the Mexico decision until after Christmas? It seems tensions are still running really high at home and throwing this into the mix is not going to be constructive could escalate the situation. I really feel for you op, it sounds like you've been in the unenviable position of referee between two very volatile personalities for a long time and now you feel it's up to you to smooth the waters again to salvage Christmas for the whole family.

But the OP has to confront it on Monday bc Christmas presents.

OP I really feel for you. The range and number of responses here demonstrates what a complex situation this is. I think you show a lot of care and insight into your family situation.

It does sound like dialectic therapy might be the way to go in the medium term, altho would your DH agree to participate?

Do you think the younger two are compliant because they see what happens when the drunk raged up bully get stood up to, and the massive psychological ramifications it has had on your daughter. I wouldnt think they were unharmed, they’re probably afraid of anger so don’t ever engage in it, as they see how your older daughter had a hard time. Whereas you daughter is overwhelmed by it. Your husband want to be in control, so does your daughter. Neither has a limit and fights beyond what’s reasonable, but people are saying that the adult who behaves like this is fine and in her it’s not fine. But she grew up a victim of his actions and is young and vulnerable following his example. He has more maturity and resources and still chooses to pull her chain and provoke and control. She needs safety and gentleness and treatment for cPTSD and childhood abuse.

I can’t see that anyone suggested OP is responsible for the bf. His own parents needs to look out for him.

So I haven’t RTFT so apologies if this has already been suggested, but you might want to look into EUPD. Would fit v clearly for me (MH professional) based on what you’ve written here.

If that’s the case: consistency, consistency, consistency. Don’t bend to her will or allow emotional heart-strings or emotional blackmail. Get her signed up for some good DBT therapy (with the Mexico money). Do lots of psycho-education with her & the whole family.

People with EUPD personalities can learn to amend these behaviours, it’s not an illness nor an excuse for shitty behaviour.

I do think people with ASD/ADHD can find ways to somewhat improve (I say that as someone with a diagnosis myself.) Unfortunately some people use the diagnosis as a reason not to try, or even to go all out with their behaviour. But therapies can help. Not that I think she's necessarily ND anyway.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy I think you'd stand more chance of getting her to get help if your DH also gets help by himself. I'm not saying that's right, but that it's a strategy. Otherwise she might think you're being unfair and be less likely to agree to it and more likely to storm off.

I am really not worried about her BF. He really holds the power in the relationship. He comes for dinner and teases her (affectionately) about her moods and is more than happy to put her straight / walk away if he isn't happy with her behaviour.

DD is mostly lovely. This is the thing that has got lost along the line. She is kind/funny/generous/hard-working/self-deprecating/loving. Her siblings are NOT afraid of her. DS talks to her all the time about her mood swings and she takes from him any amount of criticism on her behaviour and rights and wrongs.

It's just that on occasion, when something triggers her, she loses control of her rage. I am not justifying this. I am not saying it's fine because it's only sometimes, I am saying that some of your worries are not necessary.

Yes ALL DC have suffered through DH's behaviour and now DD, but they are not fearful and Boyfriend can walk away. He is not afraid of her.

If she were broadly horrible all the time, it would be easier, but she isn't.