Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

I wouldn’t fund it either she needs to learn. But I wouldn’t stop her going. She needs therapy. She grew up with an angry df. My daughter and her dad are similar in this way but younger. But do not live in the same house so easier to manage. Your daughter’s behaviour is making me consider autism. As dd is also like this and has a diagnosis.

To answer some questions:

Yes, it's possible that DH has something going on as well. Unfortunately, he grew up in a very old-fashioned, misogynistic household and sees things very black and white. Most of the time, he dismisses any suggestions of mental health disorders, and thinks that behaviours are 'solved' through discipline and personal effort. He is very hard on himself, so was able to turn his behaviour around himself with no support. He therefore thinks anyone can do this. The problem with this is that whilst he is much more in control now and kind and tolerant and more open minded - it doesn't change his core beliefs. He genuinely thinks he can 'fix' DD with consequences. And that it is up to her to improve her behaviour. He is not against her getting help but he doesn't really think it begins and ends with that. He says she is rude, defiant and out of control and THAT is the route of all our problems. That is the crux of everything I feel conflicted by. I can't see how this behaviour would benefit anyone - and I see the pain and destruction DD suffers from the fallout so I can't help thinking that if DD could stop this, she would.

DH is furious today. Really angry with DD. I can't really reason with him when he is like this. He has got much better but is far from perfect and he is still emotionally immature. He just keeps saying "enough. She has had enough chances. I'm not paying for anything and she isn't having friends round and she isn't doing this and she isn't having that...." basically wanting to punish as hard as he can.

I know there are people on this thread that would support that. I don't.

DD is not unkind to her siblings ever. DS is very close in age to her and they are best friends. She adores him and is protective and loving to him. My other DD is younger, but DD is kind and patient and loving with her.

I am not too worried about BF. He has most of the power in the relationship and is not scared of her. If she is horrible to him, he walks away and leaves her to it. They were all away from a long weekend in the summer (a group of them) and apparently she started having a meltdown at the beach and he told her to grow up and went off till she calmed down and apologised. She bombarded me with calls during the three hours the rest of them went off about how they had 'left her' but they were within sight and she could have approached at any time and said 'sorry'. In the end it was resolved - she apologised and he cuddled her and was kind, but he doesn't get bullied by her.

The GP has been fairly useless. By their own admission, they are overwhelmed. I could find the money to pay for an assessment but not sure what I am looking for. I am worried about paying money i can't really afford to a self-declared therapist type person. What should I be looking for?

A few people have noted that I seem passive and don't seem to have much power in this household. I have become quite passive. I am exhausted from years of drama - first from DH and now from DD. Trying to 'fight' for my position against two such headstrong people is draining and often fruitless. I do stand up for what's right and wrong and advocate for the underdog and make my views very clear but I tend to play more of a long, thought through game.

Both DH and I are freelance. We have no money fights. SInce covid there is very little of it, but DH is more than fair and covers most of everything. I earn less and spend less. I don't have any 'spare' to pay for DD to go to Mexico or lend it to her. DH was committing money that would be hard fought for him.

Tbh @MarmiteMakesMeHappy I'm with your husband on this one. He should not have hit her, but by the same token she should not have provoked him/kicked him in the balls. She is an adult and with being an adult, actions have consequences. She cannot expect to treat your husband, and you the way she does and expect everything to be OK, it's not.

She can clearly control her rages when she needs to and whilst her home is her safe place, it does not give her the right to lash out at her parents.
With regards to earlier years, I grew up with an alcoholic mother, as an adult I am not an alcoholic. Her earlier years may have some bearing on how she acts today, but it is not an excuse for her to do this

I wouldn’t be funding it either. Use the money for her to have therapy or pay to live elsewhere. Her and your husband need to be apart and no one near each other. Both as had as each other. For her to lash out at him and her friends and other family speaks volumes. She needs help and fast. She could hit her friend next and be arrested. Frankly it would teach her a lesson.

I’m with your husband, her behaviour is completely unacceptable. I grew up with a father who had serious mental illness in my formative years, I also have metal illnesses. I have never, ever behaved like your daughter, there are lines you just don’t cross.

Yet another interesting Mumset phenomen to add to the list. When a male displays violent behaviour the pps scream for his head on a pikestaff, his balls stuffed down his throat and paraded through the village before being hung drawn and quartered.
Whe it's a female, however, she needs a pat on the head and an all expenses paid holiday to Mexico 😉

I don't think it's helpful for people to keep throwing out armchair diagnoses. You're not doctors, and even if you were, you can't diagnose through the internet (especially through the DM and not the actual person).

She needs to seek therapy from a licensed professional and any diagnoses (if there are any to give) can be made there. Not on MN because someone skimmed something they found on Google and decided this sounds similar.

Sounds like one of mine who has ADHD. The rages, aggression, violence, depression/anxiety and difficulty regulating emotions can all be symptoms. Also look up Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria.

People keep saying she wouldn't get away with it if she were an abusive male rather than female, but those same people are really happy to excuse her father - who is an abusive man and has been for her entire childhood. So it seems like men do get away with it actually.

I agree that DH is justified in withdrawing his offer of paying for her flights. However, I am not sure he should exert wider power in ensuring she cannot go because he will withdraw agreed financial support for uni. I think that's bordering on controlling.

so the H didn’t “get his act together” he simply decided that he wasn’t the problem. Are you going to ring anyone for help today OP?

So she gets physical and he will ban her from a holiday he has no financial responsibility for, she's banned from presents or anything that would make Christmas nice for her

He slaps her and it serves her right AND she deserves more punishment on top.

Calling somebody’s child a bitch is not on.

I think the most worrying thing about your daughter is that she’s so violent that one day someone might really hurt her. She is putting herself in great danger and could get herself killed. What if someone pushes her hard she falls bangs her head. Happened to someone I know. So actually maybe it’s good that your husband hit her – she needs to know that this can happen

I'm against your DH dictating that she can't use her own money to pay for the trip. I agree, physical violence is not permitted, but having to pay for her own trip should be punishment enough. Threatening her educational future if she uses money she earned herself is... odd, excessive and far too controlling. She will learn nothing from this, and it is a form of financial abuse which DH should be told is not acceptable. Again, she behaved horribly but having to pay her own way will be enough. Everything else will backfire.

They both sound neurodiverse to me. I'm neurodiverse as is one of my parents and two of my kids.

I'd spend the money on an assessment and support for both of them.

I would stand by your DH. No Mexico. She needs to understand the consequences of blowing up like she did. Hitting her Mother’s head? Scratching her father and kicking him in the balls? You need to tell her that yesterday marked a change in her life. You are never going to put the rest of your family through that scenario again. She sounds completely unhinged. She’s ruined Christmas for the family and she kissed goodbye to Mexico. All these diagnoses of autism / PSOS are scrabbling round to find explanations for a nasty person. It may not be anything. Whilst your DH may be hot headed I assume he didn’t beat the living shit out of his family, which essentially your daughter does.

Even is your DD does have autism etc she still needs consequences. My child has asd he still has consequences otherwise how will he learn. A mental health condition is not a get out of jail free card for poor behaviour. Completely with your husband, otherwise you are teaching her she can physically attack people and it’s okay. It’s never okay.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy you need a psychiatrist

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/guides-to-support-and-services/seeking-help-for-a-mental-health-problem/private-sector-care/

https://psychiatry-uk.com/private-patients/

If you get in touch with Mind, they should be able to give your further guidance.

Wait til your husband has cooled down before addressing anything else with him. You need to be a united front. You say you've all wondered whether there is an underlying reason as to why she struggles to regulate her emotions, so when he's ready to hear it explain that finding out once and for all will help. Either she'll be diagnosed with something which means she'll be eligible for support to change or you'll find out that it's a discipline problem (unlikely I think) or that it's trauma related (in which case your husband bear responsible for supporting her through it).

He isn't wrong about consequences though

Honestly I think your reaction could be a big part of this "learned" behaviour. You think she should still get a holiday paid for when she's physically assaulted both her parents. She's damn lucky you haven't called the police.

She wouldn't be welcome back in my home till after Christmas, never mind getting christmas presents. If her boyfriend is willing to let her stay there and she ruins his christmas then maybe it will push him to leave this abusive relationship.

"I have no control" is utter bullshit. She's violent and aggressive and you need to discipline that.

@Thisoldchestnut

have you met her and assessed her then?

DH has got away with some shit behaviour. No question. There was a point when I could/should have left when he was knee deep in rage/pain/ranting. I didn't - for a million reasons - and here we are.

I don't look at him through rose-tinted glasses at all. I am proud of him turning his behaviour around. I am proud of how he has made huge changes to be a better version of himself. But he is still flawed. He is still emotionally immature and not very evolved in terms of understanding more complex emotional things. He is also a bit in denial about the impact of those years.

This view I have of him also prevents me from standing 'with him' on things sometimes, which is another reason I posted. I sometimes need an outside view to tell me if I am judging him too harshly based on previous behaviours of if he is actually right this time.

And for those saying I am fixated on Mexico when we have bigger fish to fry - absolutely. But Christmas is three days away and the happiness of siblings, me, DD, DD boyfriend - and his family, DH - everyone will be impacted by a bad atmosphere and fallout from DD being punished. I am focussing on trying to get that right before I tackle the big stuff.

Time for YOU to take the reins and get mad of you have to.

I would haul them both to the sitting room/kitchen, and with a well rehearsed three or four lines would tell them in no uncertain terms that they need to put their consternation to one side, they cannot impose their bullshit on the family, if they are not prepared to do that then they should find somewhere to stay for the duration because you and the other children fully intend to have a nice time.

Hard, fast, intense. Then send her off to make tea or do something, and dh to the shops or something.

A little time is needed. No answers will be found now right now and none should be expected.

They have both indulged their rage and have both upset the household in Christmas week.

Buy time. Find a way to calm the waters. With cool heads pick it up later. Individually with each one. Let them try to find each other.

DD is not unkind to her siblings ever

You are blinkered to the effect of her behaviour on her siblings. She attacked their mother and father, and regularly has screaming matches in their home. They are witnesses to her violence and anger. This is not being kind to them.

Not sure how anyone could argue with this