This whole male/female platonic friendship thing

[Wahtnow]

I so want to believe it's possible, but my experience is that men don't really want it.

Years ago I worked in a male dominated industry, I avoided getting close to most of the men because it was blatantly obviously none of them were interested in knowing me as a friend, or even a friendly colleague tbh. There was one man who seemed "safe" a dedicated family man, absolutely committed to his wife, we became good friends through a shared interest and for years it was all good, until it wasn't, and he kissed me at the end of a work function, when I thought he was being a genuinely decent bloke seeing me back to my hotel.

And now it's happened again. I have a mixed group of friends, some married, some single. Based on my previous experience, I have been so careful not to become especially close to the married men or to spend time alone with them, we get along absolutely fine in the group, but my close friends within it are the women and a couple of single men.

We've just been away to an event for a few days, tbf lots of drinking involved and varying stamina levels. Of 12 of us, 6 had left the bar fairly early and a couple of hours later married man said he was going, me and one other said we'd walk back with him. The other (single man) got distracted by another bar on the way back leaving me to walk with married man. All good, I feel completely safe with him and there's never been any reason for anyone to feel concerned about it.

We staggered home (large air BnB) made a cup of tea, sat on the sofa, half the party already in bed in rooms very close and the rest expected back at some point. And then he makes his move. I did not see that coming at all, up until that point it felt exactly like if I'd been with a female friend drinking tea at the end of a fun evening.

Do all men "turn" eventually/ have an ulterior motive for friendships with women or is this something I'm doing?

I stopped him, he stopped immediately and was very apologetic. He also apologised again next day and it will be fine, but it also changes things.

His wife wasn't on this trip because it was for something she doesn't enjoy, but I know and like her a lot, so that leaves me with another issue. Until this point I've always genuinely believed he was one of the good guys 😪

It's not particularly, and it's not just one or two male friends.

I think it's a rather sad and sexist view to have.

@Comedycook

Germaine Greer has opinions. We don't all have to agree with her. Many of us have different experiences.

How much feminist theory have you actually read and thought about, @Comedycook? Because it sounds awfully like you're using a single sentence from a book published in 1970 to justify your own negative experiences with men?

Greer is talking about men as a class.

She has herself had a husband, many male lovers, and male friends. (I think she's an important thinker, but I also think she's a profoundly problematic one, and latterly in danger of trashing her own legacy, and I can't think of any averagely thoughtful feminist who would say they 'agreed with GG' as a generalisation. Apart from anything else, she's been writing books prolifically on everything from Shakespeare to rape since the 60s -- that's a lot of positioning.)

I'm certain you also have a husband, from your other posts? Is he somehow different to other men?

Yes I'm aware that she's talking about men as a class

I have a few male friends I've known all my life and those are very much not dodgy, we know where we are with those ones.

More recently, I only have one or two new male friends as I don't feel I can be friends with other people's husbands, but I have some good male colleagues and enjoy chatting with them, and I also have a male friend who we go out together but nothing has ever happened.

I do make sure though that I am giving total friend vibes, and I wouldn't go out for dinner with a new male friend (only the old ones or the safe one!) I wouldn't go for a tea in their room or back at a flat together, sorry to say, I'd make an excuse and go to my room because I don't want to be in those situations. I'm all about the nice open lunch, coffee, other friends around and I don't go on my own with men that much. It's very very sad to have to behave like this and I wish it were different but I find giving off just the friend vibes and blocking any invites of any type that seem a little bit boundariless is the best way to avoid awkward situations.

But like anything there's always outliers so yes some women may have genuine male friends but overall, no, I don't think most men want to be friends with women and yes i do think most will have an ulterior motive.

Personally I’d agree. My experiences have given me that belief.

What a sad view of the world to rule out friendships with 50% of the population.

Would you also rule out friendships with lesbians and bisexuals, or is it just men you feel are so predatory?

You are aware then men are not a completely homogeneous group, right? Some may not be interested in genuine friendships with women, but some will be.

Perhaps treat people as individuals rather than defining them by their gender?

Its definitely possible, I'm male and I've been best friends with my female best friend since we were 16, so 24 years. We did have one snog when we were 18, but we were under the influence of possibly all of the alcohol in the world at the time, and I think we did it to shock the rest of our mates, rather than because of any romantic interest. Other than that one occasion, we've always been completely platonic, and I've never been interested in it going further.

To be honest though, I've always felt that pretty much any friendship has the potential to turn into something more unless you really find someone unattractive. (I'm bi so don't get to block half the planet from this rule). I think you have to keep your eyes open and actively enforce boundaries, otherwise things slip. And people do do things after a couple of drinks that they'd never consider when sober. I think everyone has the potential to cheat, even the ones who are sure they never would.

I've had similar experiences as you. 'Friends' I thought would never make a move - and did.

You'll get loads of 'of course they can' on here, but not in my experience. Of the male friends I do have I know if I came on to them they'd go for it. I wonder how many who do have male friends are blind to this...or may genuinely think it wouldn't happen. I was one of those people once.

And I'll be flamed for sure, but feeling brave... if you are what society would consider equally attractive or better looking than your male friend - I reckon there's a 70% chance he fancies you and that's the driver (honestly, don't give men more credit than that), unless you have the age old 'shared hobby' - in which case it's more of a workmate/colleague vibe anyway.

Women who think men can be platonic friends are plain stupid mislead. Sorry, not sorry.

Just because they didn't make it obvious to you doesn't mean they haven't mapped you sexually and thought/desired about it. Period.

Even if that is the case, I’m fine with it. The invisible contents of people’s heads don’t affect me. If the men I know have hung around with me for the past fifteen years putting up with all my various shit and being great friends whilst secretly hoping I’ll put out one day, that still sounds like a win-win situation for me.

Jesus Christ I've never read so much sexist crap in my life. What has become of mumsnet that its churning out such derogatory, sexist crap?! If it were men saying how every woman wants to shag them and just not be friends people on here would be in uproar but as its women saying it, it's okay!

I stand by the fact I've never slept with any of my male friends, never had romantic feelings for any of my male friends,never fancied them, their wives/partners are fine with me. They don't harbour secret desires to get me into bed. I go out for lunch, dinner, drinks with them, on our own as well(shock horror 😮). They've never made a pass at me (I must be really ugly according to some on here).

Even if you aren't spectacularly good looking, men are not that picky for sex and can find a tiny detail hot. Nature made it that men are not fussy who they fuck. Whether they'd publicly date or marry then yeah thats different. I think those naysayers are naïve or choose not to see it. There are women who enjoy male attention while playing innocent to keep her supply of attention and flattery.

I'm not convinced at all

I think that's perfectly fair.

I also think that some of the stuff that gets written about on Mn under the guise of 'friendship' is far worse than a friend making a pass and backing off respectfully once you say 'No, thanks.'

Mind you, it's possible we're talking about completely different things here. Often a 'friend' as described on Mn means 'someone I know but don't like very much' or 'someone who socialises in the same groups I do, but with whom I've never had a personal conversation'.

I'm talking about people whose company you delight in, with whom climbing a mountain in shit weather is still fun, who unobtrusively keep an eye on you when you're having a hard time but won't talk about it, whose presence is your life is a good thing.

Not convinced. DH and I have an open marriage, as do many of our friends. Everyone is pretty good looking. There are pretty much zero examples of our actual close friends hooking up with each other, despite the option being there. Because it would be such a weird dynamic. DH has said as much himself. There’s no amount of slim and sexy which doesn’t make it feel a bit incestuous to bang a close friend or their partner.

A lot of my friends are from the US and Aus, where almost all public schools are mixed sex. They all therefore grew up with the opposite sex as classmates and friends and seeing that as entirely normal, so probably do have different attitudes than many people in the UK where single sex schools have always been more common and so a lot of young people grow up aloof from the opposite sex and learn to relate to them mostly as objects of desire.

Good to see some wisdom here; some actual facts, rather than just an opinion.

What an absolute load of bollocks. I’m in my 50’s I’m certainly not a naive young thing after male attention. How misogynistic to think think that.

We have a large mixed social group of couples, singles men and women who all go out together and have a great laugh. There’s zero flirting and flattery - just a group of long term mates who enjoy the same social events and all mix together. We go to festivals and raves - hardly prime flirting attention seeking territory.

It’s pretty sad others don’t think it’s possible when it’s my lived experience over decades.

This'll never fly on here. Your male friends are lying predators, just waiting for an opportunity to get your pants off.

I'm in total agreement with you. No idea why some women think it's ok to generalise according to sex. NAWALT! Plenty of them here, but I've never heard anyone speak like this irl. Must be the circles I mix in; and I'm glad of it!

I've had plenty of male friends, sometimes they may have had a crush on me and said something but never crossed a physical boundary. I was always with someone so I assume they realised I woudlbt be interested

Do you think about shagging every man you see?

Honestly some of the sexist BS I’ve read on this forum lately makes me wonder if we’ve been infiltrated. Another thread this week made me want to scream with the poor men who can’t help their urges rhetoric.

I’ve shared accommodation with mixed groups many times over the years and never once has any of my friends come on to me.

I was 100% men can just be friends and I also worked in a very male dominated workforce for years. DH and I had a rough patch, of my men friends 2 made a pass at me. That’s 2 out of 6 not a massive data set to work with but 33 1/3%. It was depressing, I had known one for a decade at the time and he was married at least the other one was single.

I have a few female friends, really value my friendship with them (women tend to be better at keeping in touch than blokes) and never tried it on with any of them. I'm sure I'm not the only man who can say that. Wife also has some good male friends with none of these issues either.

I think it's good to have mixed friendships, and I think they can work for many of us without the pitfalls described though clearly there are a few opportunistic/desperate men out there.