I really think I need to say something 😡

[Coffeeblackplease]

Sorry this is long! I hadn’t planned for this to turn into a novella but I think I just needed to vent!

I am about to cause a huge row within my family but I don’t think I am the one who is unreasonable here. I’m really losing patience with my brother who has a weird weird friend (best friend since school days). Granted they don’t see each other a lot now, but every time this guy comes to visit my brother drops everything else as everything seems to revolve around this guy. That’s obviously not my problem, but he seems to completely unable to see things from others perspectives.

My brother is absolutely not like this guy but as soon as he comes over they are attached by the hip and get up to weird shit. So now he is apparently coming over for Christmas because unsurprisingly he doesn’t have anyone else.

My mother and her new partner (who is a therapist) have made it clear that they don’t want him at the family event which we have every year. My mother’s partner has met him before and suspects a personality disorder btw.
DB then declared that he wouldn’t come either and would celebrate with his gf and his friend as he’ll be staying with them anyway. DB and his gf only moved in together this year so she has only met him a few times and never for long. I asked my brother if she knows what he’s like and if he has told her about the criminal/ borderline criminal shit the guy keeps getting himself involved in. By his own admission she does not know because he doesn’t want her to judge him before meeting him “properly”.

When I describe this guy as weird that’s putting it mildly. He’s 100% a creep and he’s been in trouble with the law before. I remember from their teens when he beat up my brother (his best friend) so badly that DB couldn’t properly move for days because his back was covered in bruises. He stayed over in our house a lot until my mother barred him after he tried to crawl into her bed. He has zero interest in healthy boundaries and dare I say consent. And yes, I got to experience this myself as well. I could go on forever.

I am absolutely fuming that DB doesn’t want to tell his gf about these things because I think she needs to know when someone will be staying in their place. I’m not saying that he’d do something to her but I think she needs to know at least so she can be safe. I don’t want to be the one to tell her because this might of course rock their relationship, but I think I will tell DB that I will tell her if he doesn’t.

My mother agrees with me but has warned me that DB’s friend might retaliate in some way so to expect some sort of nastiness.

Vent over! And no, I usually don’t involve myself in other people’s relationships but I feel strongly about this one. By all means tell me if I am unreasonable though as I might have tunnel vision. Thank you

How old is your DB - he sounds immature or quite young? How old is the friend? Tell the GF and don't spare the details.

I'm another one agreeing with the many posters saying you must tell the girlfriend and you mustn't spare her the details.

Please don' leave it to your brother to do - you've explained already that he minimises what this "friend" has already done.

I think op is being naive to frame her brother as completely innocent in all these events when the friend has tried to molest op and her mother. Any normal young man would protect his female relatives at all costs once he realised what his friend was capable of.

To put it completely bluntly, there's a particular kink that involves getting pleasure from orchestrating women to be abused by another man.

yeah I was thinking the same, he’s been so careless with the safety of the women in his life it’s almost looking deliberate. It just doesn’t make sense a guy remaining close friends with someone who harassed not only his sister but his mum too. It’s more or less unheard of.

Even the most misogynist kind of men who applaud and turn a blind eye to bad behaviour like this, usually draw the line if their female relatives are involved! It’s why when women try to get men to care about male violence and aggression against women, they often say “what if it was your mum /daughter/sister.” Because sadly some men just don’t care about women who are not their family. So, this is particularly disconcerting that even when it’s his mum involved it hasn’t made him cut ties with this friend.

OP, yes tell his girlfriend. It’s not the same situation, but I was furious when a (former) friend invited me to stay at her and her partners flat without informing me he was on the sex offenders list. People should be warned about men like this.

I would 100% tell your brother's girlfriend for her safety. Does your mum's partner suspect ASPD? This man sounds like he is potentially a real risk but he is a risk to your brother too. Your brother sounds besotted with him - these individuals often score highly on sociopathic and narcissistic traits. There's a reason people use the expression 'he has the charm of the devil'. The charm is real and people like your brother are at risk from these individuals.

he’s been so careless with the safety of the women in his life it’s almost looking deliberate. It just doesn’t make sense a guy remaining close friends with someone who harassed not only his sister but his mum too. It’s more or less unheard of.

You can’t be serious it happens all the time. Patriarchy innit. “I’m sure he didn’t mean it, you overreacted etc.” Anyway he’s as careless of his own safety given the man put him in hospital.

Sounds like he’s in thrall to an Andrew Tate like toxic masculinity figure.

And yes I'm assuming the kink mentioned by a PP is the whole cuck thing and if it is that, your brother's gf is at risk of coercion (at best) if she doesn't know his friend's history. I really hope you find a way to tell her in a way that is safe for all.

@Coffeeblackplease

This friendship is certainly an 'odd' dynamic. It's like your DB is 'in thrall' to him.

I'm going to discount the idea that this man 'has something' on your DB because I think you'd get a feeling that your DB was being pressured. I think your DB would come across frightened or agitated at your refusal rather than angry and defensive of him.

What does that leave? Did this man save your brother's life at some point? Did he get him out of a bad situation? Did they go through some sort of trauma together like a near death experience or witnessing something terrible? Or could he have somehow convinced your brother he saved his life or prevented some disaster befalling him?

The reason I ask it because my DH 'hung on' for much longer than he should have to a friendship with a man who was a vile drunk and who abused his wife. This man literally (and I do mean literally) saved my DH's life and I feel that DH's sense of gratitude caused him to feel he 'owed' this man his friendship in spite of what this man was (and still is). Eventually there was a straw that broke the camel's back and DH cut him out of his life completely, thank God. But before that I tried and tried to get DH to end this friendship and he simply wouldn't. I compromised with myself by telling DH that I wouldn't be around him. Even that didn't sit right with me, but there was nothing more I could do.

Yep, totally serious…Thankfully, I don’t know or haven’t heard of many men who have stood by and dismissed something like this when it involved both their own mother and sister.

When it involves a colleague/friend / stranger /unrelated female - yes I agree it’s sadly
all too common. But immediate family member - especially their mother? nope!

Men steeped in patriarchy are well known for their double standards when something like this involves their mum/daughter and to a lesser extent sisters.

Some of the worst men I knew were among the most protective of their female family members. So I do find this bizarre and wouldn’t rule out the possibility, as suggested by pp,regarding his part in this.

I do accept the point he is careless with his own safety too though.

Hope the gf involved, can escape this whole mess once she finds out. It doesn’t feel like a safe environment for her.

I think it's pretty common tbh - they might talk a good game about protecting women in their family, but somehow it doesn't count when it's their male friends or family members perpetrating.

@Girlswillbetwirls Thankfully, I don’t know or haven’t heard of many men who have stood by and dismissed something like this when it involved both their own mother and sister.

Really? You must be young.

You should 100% tell her, your brother sounds naive and a bit of a dick to be honest, the friend is a nightmare but why tolerate him??

Not particularly, just haven’t came across this kind of man thankfully.

As I said, it’s a common feature of patriarchy for men to puff their chest when it comes to their mothers being disrespected and threatened by males outside their family.

Only ones lower down the food chain.

Sorry just catching up. They aren’t young and in the late 30s bracket. They have been friends for over 20 years. I think they did meet when our parents were getting divorced but other than that I don’t know of any “trauma” that my brother might have suffered. I remember that we were both struggling with this but that he spent a lot of time with his new friend, and that they snuck out at night. The reason I remember is because I wasn’t allowed to come along because I was the stupid little sister.

I can’t remember if my mom’s partner specified what he suspects but I can ask. I just remember personality disorder and not to let him into the house.

Of course I can see that this isn’t normal and that my brother is behaving very irrationally, and it is really bothering me. I understand why people will think that he is a horrible person, and maybe he is and I just don’t know, but he usually gets upset about roadkill and seeing horrible things on the news and struggles to sleep then.

I haven't read the full thread but trauma bonding certainly comes to mind.

You definitely know of one incident where he beat your DB so badly he couldn't move for days, but I would bet there was probably incidents that have happened to your brother he has probably been able to mask much more successfully especially if he has form to minimise this persons behavior. I suspect your DB is so conditioned by this friend he daren't display anything other the grovelling admiration.

I say this as someone who had a continuing friendship with my school bully until I was in my early 30s, what snapped me out of it was that I wanted to have a baby and I knew I had to get this toxic person out of my life so my future child couldn't be exposed to that person. Its so hard but I had moved away from my home town several years earlier and it made cutting ties much easier also she wasn't half as dangerous as your DBs friend (although capable of some appaling and quite dangerous behaviour)

I would treat your brother like he's in an abusive relationship and navigate it like that. X You do need to warn his GF though, like people who are in abusive relationships and introduce their children to their own abusers he may do the same to his GF and she may not be able to rely on your DB to protect her. Xx

Take care OP

Definitely tell the girlfriend. Even if you just casually drop it into conversation. I’m not sure why your brother allows his behaviour. That is concerning too.

Send him a message that says ‘Listen, I think you need to pre-warn Jane about Steve. It’s not fair for her to have him in her home without knowledge of what he’s like. I know you’ll be pissy with me for saying all this but d’you not remember when he climbed in to bed with Mum? And his behaviour towards me over the years has been inappropriate to say the least. Could you live with yourself if he tried anything? I couldn’t, so I’ll speak to Jane myself if you don’t mention it to her.’

And to be honest I’d speak to her anyway, regardless of his response.

I'm looking at the perspective from the girlfriend, and if that was me I’d want to be told, and also told that the brother didn’t want to tell her cos that’s a major red flag, he isn’t putting the girlfriend first.

Agreed, that's not something a good therapist does.

You need to tell her, she’s at risk. Your brother kept contact with him after he sexually harassed you and your mother, he’ll not protect the GF either.

Is your brother scared of him?

Yep.

Telling GF is going to go exactly the same way telling someone their partner is abusive. She will tell DB, he will kick off, make out DF is unfairly maligned, and she will believe him. Until he tries to get into bed with her…

You should do it with your mother so that it is clear that this is not a personal grudge. And l suggest you ask for advice from your mother's partner. Not to make it into a big psycho drama but to make sure you do it kindly & well. Maybe she could go to her family for Christmas. Good luck.

The therapist isn't the brother's own therapist, he's op's dm's boyfriend whose job happens to be therapy.

Absolutely this
You need to keep the girlfriend safe,
How would you feel if you didn't warn her and he tried something with her.