September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@MonkeyfromManchester stand firm. You and MM are doing really well. He’s doing particularly well to even have 2cms of self-esteem - that’s something therapy can help with.

@MonkeyfromManchester my dad is just weak, it's pathetic. When I was a child they were both raging alcoholics, so I always put it down to 'too pissed to care' however over last 10 years my dad has played very heavily on our sympathy for attention, it also worked with my mums carers, they spent half the time fussing over him, breakfast in bed every morning, tea and cake at lunch, doing his laundry etc, it is straight up manipulation, poor dad being chained to that bitch.
My mum was assessed as needing 24 hour care, a live in carer, omg the complaining 😮 racist comments, she was eating their food, watching their TV, sitting in their lounge, using their bathroom, it lasted 7 days. The lies they told me about that poor woman. What they both wanted was 24 hour waitress service, cleaner, gardener, laundry the whole shit show but no inconvenience and free of charge.
My dad is really miffed he doesn't get free care to continue breakfast in bed, un fucking believable.
They can set up as much care for your old hag as they like, she can send them away. Hopefully hardball will get her shoved in a home.

@MonkeyfromManchester I can't imagine anyone lasting long living/caring for the hag 😂she doesn't want care, she wants to live in your house, preferably with you out of it. Conniving old hag.

@binkie163 where do I sign up for breakfast in bed? It's the entitlement that gets me! God, how did you not scream? Deep, deep breaths, I imagine.

An older friend of my mum’s has that attitude; whining about the carers. The Hag is always complaining that they are late. They are underpaid and under-resourced. THEY HAVE OTHER PEOPLE ON THEIR LIST. THEY ARE NOT SERVANTS. FFS.

Hag grew up poor and her family couldn't afford the Dr (pre-NHS). She's not thanked me for putting ANY of this stuff in place for her. Well, she wouldn't. This wasn't her plan.

I had the racist comment from Slave Son about the social worker this morning
“I couldn't understand what she was saying”
JESUS WEPT. People from overseas are propping the whole system up. FFS.

Absolutely Re her refusing. In her strategy to drag us in, she will refuse to get more help in the three 15 minute care calls she gets which she just uses for her fucking eyedrops.

We will have to check with the Care company once further care is in place to see if it's being used, a couple of spot checks for mouldy food from us, and flag with social workers that she's still self-neglecting. We continue to refuse to take on her care and I bang on about self-neglect at every point.

I get her strategy, but she's not thought that through and she’ll either start doing stuff for herself or letting the carers care for her OR (most likely) leaving it at status quo - living like a pig - to drag us in. Then we start pushing social services harder. Not doing anything for her.

@Tbry I am sorry about the situation with your friend. I also think you should spend the money you saved for that trip on yourself, you deserve it. I do think that when people are so complicated they aren't worth to keep as part of your relationships. Good relationships aren't complicated and they make you feel good. You deserve so much more.

Also in the topic of enablers fathers, I also have one. And also lived in a house full of mocking/ criticism. But I still try to see the good side of him. I know this is possibly because NM is so utterly horrible it's like I need the best of both. But yep, he wasnt there for me either.

@MonkeyfromManchester I am following The Hag updates every day and I am delighted to see everything is going well for you. Your DH and slave son are really lucky having you. My own NM will be one the The Hag and will want to be in my house being looked after (she already said this to me many times). No way I can allow that happening. You are leading on what to do when the time comes!

As someone brought up by two narc parents I cannot overemphasise how true this is. Children brought up in this kind of family have a huge unfulfilled need to get love and approval from their parents, but it is essentially hopeless. You will never get what you need from them. It took me years to accept this, and lots of therapy. But I did get to a point of near absolute indifference to them, needing nothing from them at all. The only way to freedom to is work on yourself, not wasting energy trying to get them to give them what you need. By working on yourself, you also lessen the impact on the next generation below you.

I absolutely fucking lost it last night.

The burden of being so tough is exhausting. I had a huge row over nothing with MM, packed a bag and headed to a hotel.

I am not in a hotel as my chosen destination Malmaison was £270 so I came home. I'm prone to drama, but I'm a cheapskate.

The trigger was a phone call at 7pm when we were sitting down to dinner. The Hag.

“Can’t speak now I'm having dinner”
“Who with?”

I can't work out whether her denial of my existence in any of this shit is pure spite or dementia or wish fulfilment.

She then launched into the whimpering “when am I coming out of hospital?”
“When the care package is in place”
20 minutes of this going back and forth.

And then she reveals her hand. She finally speaks it out loud.

“I just need my sons to do all that for me. You can live here.”

There we have it. The entitlement. She honestly expects two men who she battered as children to pick up her care and LIVE WITH HER.

“No one comes to see me”.

Because she's ramping up the pressure and bullying he said

“I can come and see you. Pop in on a Sunday” which he immediately regretted

I had a big conversation with MM when I got home.

• You can't weaken on this. (he won't)
• She wants to position this as you having to make a choice between me and her (the choice, in her head, is obviously her)
• Popping in on a regular day will become a rock round your neck. One day will become every day. You will have NO life.
• Exposure to her makes you ill. Your counsellor has diagnosed you with PTSD.
• You do know the phone calls the other day to your cousin weren't ‘mistaken’ calls to Slave Son they were an attempt to drag someone else into this unholy shitshow, to get someone else into the triangle, to have someone else to manipulate. The penny dropped with him.
• You may need to get to the point of telling her that if she doesn't use the carers she will have to go into 24 hour care.
• You have to tell Slave Son to stop ringing me for an update on the care package because she's pecking his head and bullying him. I'm not a fellow servant. I'm doing this as a favour to him, I'm not doing it because I have to.

I'm exhausted. MM has a huge flare up of IBS.

The bitch is sat right now in a valuable NHS bed - blocking it - eating toast and drinking tea like the Queen of Fucking Sheba when she could quite easily be at home and using the carers, who are there already for three 15 minute care calls a day, properly. They offer to do more ALREADY but her refusal is a battle of dragging her rebellious, non-compliant son (MM) into her nasty drama.

Her level of selfishness is off the scale.

Bless you @MonkeyfromManchester, so tough for you and for MM. She’s probably not actually feeling like the Queen of Sheba but that might work in your favour because she might choose to go home instead of sweating in a nasty plastic bed which makes her back hurt and the other eight people in the ward being privy to her every bowel movement. I have been in hospital a lot over the past two years and generally form temporary alliances with my wardmates and the staff are super nice, especially as I’m lucky enough to be able to joke and laugh through their 5-8 attempts to cannulate. Hospital gets horribly boring and claustrophobic very quickly though and I’m normally having a panic attack by about the third day. I’m afraid it’s a war of attrition for you but luckily you’re younger than the Hag. I’m probably the last person in the world to give relationship advice, as well, but take the space you need from MM while also explaining to him why you need it. He’s probably simultaneously rubbed raw by the Hag’s behaviour but also had a much higher threshold for what is unacceptable. I know I’m like that.

Also in episode 2 of my mother is a terrible person as observed by my boyfriend, she came in the other day in an ebullient mood, having been invited on an Important Visit by an important person. My boyfriend is much better at fronting things out than I am, so he was providing the odd little comment or laugh as she told us all about it while I was responding also positively, but I’m quite a lot worse at faking enthusiasm and for a lot of reasons I wasn’t very enthusiastic about this. Just as he’s previously left the room with me and said “she can’t go for one sentence without insulting you and your dad” we left, started up some Netflix and he whispered “she just couldn’t let you speak at all, could she? Every time you started she spoke over you”.
She’s also being a bitch about the cat, I’m now banned from speaking nicely to the cat, calling for her when she goes outside (my mother is allowed to call and insist that the cat came to her call), being gentle with the cat, giving the cat a firm “no”, at this point I’m basically banned from all contact with my little friend. My mother said if she dies there will be another one waiting and there are 400 cats at Battersea. This is a woman who has cut off the tails of MY horses and kept them in a drawer because her grief was so great, apparently. I don’t actually like parts of my dead horses being kept in drawers. I haven’t allowed myself to cry about them or grieve for them. I didn’t like watching my mother throw herself on the ground when “her” cat was put down, I didn’t like looking after his increasingly stiff and leaking body, I didn’t like being forced to make the decision to have him put down although she’d been talking about it for months, and I don’t like at all the fact that she doesn’t like the cat just because the cat likes me more. I even got told off for rubbing my eyes last night on the grounds that I might be allergic to her, when even my boyfriend who is actually allergic can cope with her, she has a very fine coat and cleans herself all the time. I know a cat is probably trivial but I care about the cat a lot, she’s absolutely adorable, and she’s just become another tool in whatever fight my mother is trying to have.

@MonkeyfromManchester - is it time to employ the burner phone strategy? Get a burner, use it for The Hag and Slave Son, delete/block your normal numbers from their phones. This will allow you to create a protective wall around The Hag's escalating behaviours. Burner phone remains switched off unless you choose otherwise.

Being able to control your level of contactability might be helpful in reducing the off-the-scale anxiety and stress this is causing you and MM.

I hope you are able to contain the shit show. MM sounds like he's really struggling. Maybe he needs to get in to see his counsellor for some extra support.

Placing as much distance as you can between yourselves and The Hag might be your best option. Social services are aware of your position. The hospital is aware of your position. So is Slave Son.

By backing away and refusing to engage further, social services will be forced to find a "safe" resolution.

The more you engage, the more they will involve you one way or another.

I am so sorry for all the crap you are dealing with. But a crisis like this is often what it takes for everyone's patience to finally snap.

I've got her blocked on my phone and I will never unblock her. I've unblocked Slave Son whilst this social worker shit is getting resolved. Then he will be blocked again.

I love the burner phone idea.

MM is getting better at not picking the phone up and will re-train her with one call a week (if that) when she's unleashed.

MM is back in touch with his therapist. He emailed her the day after the shit started on Sat 18 Nov. She's shifting her diary to make space.

I've fully briefed the social workers - disabled brother, my bipolar, MM’s PTSD. They are using the words ‘self-neglect’ and ‘unsafe discharge’.

And the best yet ‘do you think she needs 24 hour care?’ I think a prison would be best.

Me: ‘i think if she doesn't use the carers to support her - they go in three times a day to put her eye drops in* - we need to explore that option.’

MM is on the same page. We’ll let social services drop that bombshell.

I doubt very much that she will use the Carers.

Getting her to use them from 2020 onwards brought up some classics.

‘I would rather go blind’

MM has taken the day off work, unbeknownst to her, and had told her he can't visit as he's too busy.

She is NOT getting her own way with any of this.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. That's great advice. She's trapped in the ward until care is sorted. She already has three care calls a day, but this is her raging war just as it was from her in 2020.

Nothing about your cat is trivial. She's weaponising this. She is jealous of a cat FGS.
I'm really glad your BF is seeing the games and right through her. Stay strong and take care. Xxx

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
I know I am stating the bleeding obvious but is there any way you can move out and take your little cat with you ?
She is truly awful and being jealous of your relationship with your flipping cat!. Well words fail me !
Your posts make me truly sad and I feel so bad for you . X

Sorry @flapjackfairy - I promise I’m not looking for attention or even sympathy but I need to reality check a lot so I am fairly vocal about stuff that goes wrong, or when I’m not sure if it’s wrong or not. You are all so kind on this board.
@MonkeyfromManchester you seem like a superbly tough, albeit much-beleaguered, person, but people in hospital tend not to have very much power left at all. It can be difficult to get used to the changed differential but if you’re stuck in a bed under review for capacity and with an entire team needing to say you’re fit to leave, trust me you have no power! I don’t mean or want to say enjoy it but the Hag is probably in the most suitable place for you to be able to keep her as far away as you and MM need. Frustratingly I’m having the opposite debate about my DGPs, my grandad has just gone into care and my mother is frustrated that my DGM hasn’t defaulted to obeying my mother, or “doing the sensible thing” as she calls her bullying suggestions. My DGM has been in a rigid and controlling relationship for SIXTY years, she’s not going to break the pattern now just because her name has started to be first on some legal documents.

@flapjackfairy @MsRosley Another child of two narcs thirding the fundamental truth of this statement.

It's only since I turned 50, 5 years ago, that I've stopped banging my head against the wall...even though I went no contact with my father 34 years ago and low contact with my mother 26 years ago. I still tried getting some sort of emotional support from my mother...she's just not capable of it, never has been, never will.

You will never get what you need from them

I sometimes think I should have this tattooed on the back of my left hand, so I see it every time I go to make a phone call to my mother.

You reap what you sow

I should have this tattooed on the back of my right hand, to look at every time I feel any sort of guilt about my mother.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
I never for a minute thought you were attention seeking and so glad this safe space is here so you can vent. But you sound so lovely and your mother wants to crush every single bit of joy out of your life. It is so sad to read x

@MonkeyfromManchester It took me finally losing my shit to press the nuclear option of NC I had known for years how futile it all was but kept plodding along thinking my parents couldnt possibly live much longer. My mum died 10 months after NC. All her tremulous mssgs 'I am so afraid I will die and we wont be friends' made me hoot, we were never friends! Funnily enough the timing was perfect for me, all my rage came out in the last phone call, over an hour of purging, I felt cleansed, no remorse, no guilt, no sadness, nothing. Had that not happened I believe I would have nowhere to place the rage.

'I'm exhausted. MM has a huge flare up of IBS.'

My brother was plagued with IBS for many years, my sanctimonious mother gave him a book by Louise Hays called 'you can heal your life' (during her grandiose guru preaching stage of alcoholics anonymous) it was so obvious she hadnt even read the book as it states:
IBS...cause...over bearing mother!
I shit you not 🤔 she gaily shrugged and said the book she hailed as a modern miracle of healing must have had a typo!
They have zero shame or self awareness.

Thanks everyone for your support. It means so much and it's helping me immensely.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. I'm exhausted by her but she is NOT going to bully us into being replacement slaves. She's in that hospital for quite a while as I'm...mmmm…not chasing up the social workers. 🤣

I’m so sorry to hear about your grandparents. Grim. Your mum bullies everyone.

@FreeRider genius tattoo idea. I'm scared of needles, but…

@binkie163 omg that's fascinating about IBS. The body does keep the score. Absolutely priceless with regard to a typo. I'm surprised she didn't complain to the publisher and have the whole lot pulped!

I will feel NO guilt when the cockroach dies. She's absolutely hideous on every level. She really has reaped what she's sown She’s cut people out of her life, cut down her interests to just one of screaming and picking fights and now she has two sons in her evil orbit. One of whom wants next to nothing to do with her.

Oh I've just realised that Hag is unlikely to be released until next week as social services need to have a meeting with her and then a meeting with us and put things in place. Are they going to be able to achieve that in two days? I don't think so. They don't work weekends…

I’ll ride shotgun with Mr Monkey again on the next Visiting Time At The Zoo so he's supported and not worn down.

I think I might ask for a walk-in shower for the witch to slow things up further.

“She's too unsteady on her feet to do a body wash at her sink, she won't use the bath as it’s not safe and we think her hygiene is starting to slip...just look at her clothes…”

Really sad day today. DH describes my relationship with my mum as one of an addict, I can’t seem to get clean. Like an alcoholic who can’t have just one drink. It’s gaslighting, coercion. I always end up having to detox after a stint with her, I become withdrawn and almost infantile; I can no longer cope with the most basic of things. I went to stay with my mum with my children, I know I’m on edge the whole time I’m with her. I heard her snap at my potty training toddler over an accident. She wanted to show off the grandchildren and I tried to protect them from the intensity as I knew my toddler wouldn’t cope. I failed, today he punched a member of nursery staff. He’s tired and emotional. So am I. And I know my behaviour is a big part of that. I know no contact is the way forward to best protect my children but I’ve tried and failed before. Don’t know what to do.

@PurBal hugs to you. I found writing down all the vile things my mother in law had done to me (I didn't even write about the abuse MM suffered as a kid) I would look back at it at any point I felt I was wavering from my very, very, VERY low contact with her. It was in black and white, it was factual and it was increfibky empowering.

Keep talking here. Sending life and solidarity xxx

@PurBal I am sorry you are reacting so severely when you are with her. It just shows nothing will ever change and that's a relationship that only brings grief. As everyone here, go LC or NC. Little or no exposure is the only way to go. Sending love. You are not alone.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau your post really resonates. Your mother talking over you, no respect, only looking to give her monologue and being admired. The jealously is familiar too. They can be jealous of a cat giving you attention, jealous of anything good happening to you. A new job, a good friend or a good relationship with your husband or kids. It's unbelievable.

@MonkeyfromManchester so sorry about the intensity of the situation. You are right blocking her. You DH is so so lucky with you. Not everyone would be able to put up with this and be helpful. But must be really tough for you to be in the middle of the shit show. Sending you hugs, you need to mind yourself too x

@MonkeyfromManchester Not chasing anything up is a wise move.

Another issue social services will be looking at is whether she is deemed to have capacity. If they decide yes she does, then that will include her having the capacity to make bad choices and they won't force her into a care situation if she refuses.

If she lies to social services about being able to cope at home, they may well take her at her word. There's a lot of box-ticking and form-filling on their part and as long as they are seen to have fulfilled their (minimal) obligations, then that's pretty much that.

Remember also that you and MM are not obliged to visit her in hospital. And if you do, you can make it as brief as you want. Preserving your own (and MM's own) mental health is your number one priority.

@MonkeyfromManchester sorry to hear you’re caught in the middle and MM is having a hard time.

@PurBal I also think writing it all down helps. It will initially help you get everything off your chest but then you will be shocked to see it all written down. This will help you reduce contact and then anytime you waiver go back to what you wrote. This has been working for me. I react very similarly around FOO - withdrawn, infantile and not able to cope (even with a conversation).

@MonkeyfromManchester not read everything fully but you don’t need a burner phone. My phone allows two sims (bought it for work stuff originally as needed a private and a work line). So you set MIL to only have the original number and everyone else to new sim. Then you can block or mute appropriately.

Also thank you to everyone who responded. I have my weekend away savings safe in a separate bank account. I tried to talk myself into going away alone, a night here of there or a cottage for a weekend but been so low about it all as well as my anxiety/agoraphobia couldn’t manage it. But the money is my special treat to myself money now so in the new year will have a good think about what I want to do. I would probably like an arty or nature sort of weekend retreat and if I’m only paying for myself now might have enough. The bit that still grates on me is that regardless of how it’s turned out that I was expected to save up and pay for both of us….think that alone sums it up.

Btw sorry if I offended anyone mentioning enablers. Not sure how it all works and all the terms as of yet. So if I said the wrong thing sorry everyone.

As for myself both of my parents were terrible whilst married and also terrible whilst not married. So don’t think I have an enabler just two completely rubbish parents.