September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

OMG. I LOVE SOCIAL SERVICES.

I spoke to this wonderful woman.

Yes, it is self-neglect.

No, she's not ready to be medically discharged. Hmmm…Hag had said a doctor and a nurse had told her that. All lies so she can get what she wants e.g., to come here.

No, she won't be discharged when she's actually medically fit as we need to speak to social services. It IS an unsafe discharge.

Yes, she told social worker on Friday that there was mouldy food in her flat. Oddly, she claims to us that there wasn't mouldy food. Hmmm..All lies so she can get what she wants e.g., to come here.

Yes, it sounds like dementia. Her GP said this in 2020. She refused this.

Yes, it sounds like she needs a place in a temporary care home until she has all the proper care visits in place.

No, she won't be discharged to us or Slave Son as it’s totally unsuitable

Oh, you don't have Power of Attorney? We can put Dutyship in place.

No, you're not bad people for not wanting to deal with her. That's why we’re here.

RESULT.

@MonkeyfromManchester excellent news, so pleased for you. I no longer have all this shit now mother has passed, dad nowhere near as needy, a pain in the arse but not demanding and vile, a life of weakly trailing in mothers wake. He actually seems more relaxed on the phone than he has for years with bitch face demanding the phone or it on speaker so she can take over the conversation. He is finally enjoying the snooker on TV in peace. The gratitude I have that this xmas will not be a repeat of last years disgusting shit show is almost enough for me to take holy orders, praise the lord and dance up and down singing Halleluiah lol. Social services obviously have the measure of The Hag! she can just Hag on in a nursing home, hopefully a good hour away from you. Amen lol.

YES! So pleased for you @MonkeyfromManchester. There is so much negative talk about bed-blocking and almost none about this type of situation, where hospital and social services are making sure that you are also kept safe from her. Well done to you and MM. I generally don’t have vindictive feelings but just from reading about the Hag I hope she spends the next few years lonely apart from a few impersonal carers. If you need to apply pressure later because there’s been some sort of hitch, you absolutely need to pull the PTSD card. I’m very much not proud of this but my local hospital got so sick of seeing me after self-harm, suicide attempts and dangerous amounts of drinking or overdose that they finally offered to section me just so I could have some respite. They don’t want to see MM in that condition so hopefully you will get extra leverage with that information.

@MonkeyfromManchester whoop! I want a care home in another country. Lol. The abusers abuse everyone, don't they? Unless they want something, of course. It sounds like your dad is liberated. And that is brilliant. It's only with death that the people who are crushed can begin to have a good life. Oddly, when Hag has been in the hospital or she was staying at ours, Slave Son was totally different and happier. He had a glimpse of happiness and then threw it all away when she was back to her normal self and could batter him into submission. He's 64, in appalling health, has MS and that's not going to be a long life. He's had decades of this shit.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I want her to have a shit life now. She has made her sons life dresdful. She doesn't deserve anything from anyone. The shit life is what she wants anyway. Her choice.

I laid it on with a trowel about her unreasonable behaviour, her self-neglect, her abuse, my bipolar, Slave Son’s disabilty, MM’s PTSD. I don't blame you for that at all. Your mother drove you to that. You weren't exaggerating.

Just spoken to MM and at the end of the call he was a different person.

Now I've got to phone Slave Son and get him to get his brain around this. FFS.

@binkie163 thst message was for you. The champagne has gone to my head.

Lol @MonkeyfromManchester! Not surprised if you’ve actually cracked open the champagne. Here’s to you!
I don’t know if this is good advice or not but could you not just go behind slave son’s back? Certainly in my abusive family there’s a lot of “I can’t do this because X said this” and it’s a lot simpler to do things sneakily and apologise later. Particularly if SS has a disability you might need to just arrange stuff with Social Services and the hospital before he has a chance to weigh in. The Hag has probably had ample opportunities to wear him down so he’ll be on her side and even if Social Services have got her sussed, a busy and stressed doctor needing Neverending beds might be tempted to discharge to a willing family member.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau on the fourth glass. 🍾

I think Slave Son needs to be involved so he's made to see the sense of it. He walks with sticks, has tons of neurological appointments, his speech is getting more laboured and its so obvious that he can't cope. Sticking him in front of the social work team makes it so clear. I'll start screaming in any minute when anyone says we can cope.

When the Hag mooted the idea of him going to live with her, FFS, he said no way. I do believe he’ll refuse. He's stupid, but not that stupid.

In 2020 when this BS started, he did stand up to her about carers etc. She doesn't use them, but he did make it clear. The stupid bitch doesn't realise that by not using the Carers this time, she will be living in a care home.

The social work team definitely get it now. And handy to be able to compare notes…. If we don't tell her the plans and likely outcomes she can't rehearse her lines…

@Tbry I hope you’re ok 🤗 Some friendships can be one sided and sometimes with a history of trauma it can be difficult to judge what is going on. Maybe just take a short break from the friendship to give yourself time to reflect and see how you feel. I had to take quite a bit of time to myself 10 months ago and have just started seeing friends and socialising again. It offered some fresh perspective on my relationships.

I’m not saying you do this but I have sometimes had high expectations from friendships as I think I’ve been trying to fill the emptiness of not having a supportive FOO. I am trying to be a bit lighter in my approach to friendships and a bit more intensive on my relationship with myself recently. In case it helps you too - journaling, reading, going for walks and listening to music has been quite useful and healing.

Well done Monkey. This is indeed good news re the Hag. Will raise a glass to you accordingly 🍷

@AttilaTheMeerkat I'm sending glasses round the rooms of our stately home girls.

It's going to be really tough with The Hag, but, by God, am I ready to take her on.

So, this afternoon I gave Slave Son an update. Apparently, now she's desperate to go home to her flat.

Him: “how long are the social workers going to take?”
No please, no thank you. Apple. Tree etc.

I have NO problem with taking this on.

Mr Monkey goes to see her. She realises that MM is NOT going to give her a home and is listening to what the EXPERTS say, so she is now phoning her nephew.

One who lives round the corner. Who she never sees or rings because “they don't make an effort with me.” She pushes a card through his letterbox at Christmas.

The poor (lovely) man is in hospital with pneumonia. The same one. She doesn't care about that - obviously - and has been ringing him all afternoon. MM’s lovely cousin doesn't want to take an 86 year old harridan into his lovely home. It's the narc thing of moving her focus.

And manipulation. MM needs to be really tough, but he was deleting his number from her phone.

I’ll give her this. She's inventive.

Champagne is drunk. Onto the next bottle.

@MonkeyfromManchester I am celebrating here for you too 🍾
It's all going on the right direction!
Thank you very much for your very kind message. I am in the same position as your husband. I am fortunate enough I found someone solid, trustworthy. My DH is my rock. There are no mind games, unexplained changes of mood, its what a relationship is meant to be. Your husband is really fortunate to have you. Without anyone modelling how relationships should be its difficult to figure that out.

I will start my psychotherapy in 2024. It took me this long to decide that. I never suffered physical violence with past relationships, (only with my own mother). However the mind games, constant criticism and very conditional love, I grew up with, has deeply affected me. I live always second guessing if what I said is good enough, if others agree with me. This is something I am very concerned about in the work environment. I am deeply insecure. Apart from that I absolutly dread talking/ seing my own NM and I need to learn how to cope with it. I am learning a lot from the Hag saga! Thanks for sharing.

@girlswillbegirls therapy will help hugely.

So glad you have found a decent man. The shadow the abusers cast is huge and it's hard not to repeat patterns.

MM is insecure about everything. The therapy has made him so much stronger and he believes in himself much more and accepts himself. I am so proud of him.

Apparently, she was crying down the phone today wailing “I want to go home”

The only home she wants to go to is ours.

NOPE.

Me: “put your phone on mute.”

He got to the hospital and she was sat up all smiles eating a cake. Of course she was.

“Well, you know she cries Wolf.” says MM.

MM has deleted her nephew’s number from her phone. No one else needs this shit.

Loads of recent posters taking different brave steps so I shan’t try to name you all, but congratulate you all.

The crocodile tears are a big problem but ALL the hospital staff will be used to older people really wanting to go home, whether it’s genuine or not.

@tonewbeginnings Thank you I’ve been doing things for myself and alone for about 18 months now. Suggested by my therapist. I’m currently not able to work due to my MH so I get the chores and errands done in the mornings and then the rest of the day to myself for hobbies.

Going to spend next year properly working on this though as when I was doing it properly I was feeling a lot better and keeping the contact with my family members and friend NC or LC depending on who it is. Will see how things go.

In case anyone else ends up going through something similar with an old school friend, close as in I regard her as a sister and we are Aunts to our nieces and nephews, some of this might help. After three years of contemplation I feel that if the friend and friendship started at the same time as the family problems there may be a problem.

I have been leaving the friendship as LC since I realised there was an issue. No longer being the one who visits (it’s the other side of the country to me), asking to meet up, asking how they are, etc etc etc. So been waiting to see how it turns out and what they will do. I was doing all of this as realised that I thought I had had a best friend since school and then suddenly woke up to how I was being treated.

Some of the initial big problems arose whilst I was having my therapy and I started seeing parallels with how I was being treated and how my family treat me. My therapist thought it was possible I was overly catastrophising or worrying for no reason and to give my friend a proper chance, very good advice as due to my family it is hard for me to sometimes work out what’s happening. This is all unbeknown to friend.

I suggested a lovely weekend away together which friend said yes to and was really excited about. Lots of messages sent, which I found very surprising as I had expected a no. So all happy I thought. I then saved up for us to have a weekend away together so we could sort things out. Instead of treating myself to an afternoon out or a coffee I spent a year saving up enough for a lovely long weekend away for us both (this did wreck some of my therapy techniques for my anxiety as I was supposed to be going out each day but could not afford to do both).

I waited for friend to get back to me with where to go and dates as I had only been given dates they could not do. As I had not heard anything by this summer I dropped them a friendly message, after calling a few times and not getting a reply, saying I’ve got all the money saved when does she want to go etc. All happy or so I thought. I sent nothing negative and in no way was being negative as I was really pleased about it all and that I’d managed to save up enough money for a special treat. And that was when my friend completely lost the plot and sent me tons of vile messages accusing me of stuff I’ve not done and in between making it clear they have never agreed to go away with me, we’ve made no plans, they are not free and so on.

The last message sent in a rant of about 50 made me feel truly awful as implied my MH illnesses are contagious and they don’t want to be around me to catch them 😰. The last message was that bad I have never replied to it and never will do. My friend does not know how bad it made me feel but deep down in my heart know if I had been sent that at a lower stage of my MH problems and had not had some therapy in between I would probably not be here now.

I assumed that was it and we were no longer ever speaking but then I get random messages here and there and when I’ve questioned them I’ve been told of course they are speaking to me and implying none of this ever happened, even though we have not booked a weekend away. (For reference however awful the messages are I have kept them all).

I’m now sure that yes I was right a few years back and my friend was suddenly treating me differently. I am glad I did all of this though and as my therapist suggested and gave them the benefit of the doubt. It means I feel that I have done everything possible to be a good friend and yet the friendship is now LC only as I’m not prepared to have that in my life.

The one good thing I can currently say about my own upbringing (When I had time to contemplate it all I actually had a bit of a giggle about it to myself) is that I can certainly get through losing my best friend and going LC as my family have given me 50years of experiences of how to cope 😂

Anyway just in case anyone starts going through something similar with a very old friend some of this may help. 💐💐💐

Sorry it’s confusing my parent has lots of us children, myself and my full siblings. And also has my half siblings. None of my siblings currently speak to me and now of us are related to my step parent.

Will try the best I can to stay friends with my step parent as I thought we were good friends.

@MonkeyfromManchester good news for you both!!

@binkie163 sorry that last year you had a tough Christmas. Now your dad is a widower at least he can have some peace and enjoy his hobbies. Was he an enabler, even maybe against his will as sometimes I’m not sure the other parent knows what to honestly do? If so it may be possible for you and him to start forging a new positive relationship as there’s no one there destroying it all.

@Tbry I’m sure is tough whichever position we are in, but regarding the present if I get her anything it will just be a token gesture so it doesn’t matter if she breaks it. I do like @MonkeyfromManchesterS idea. Just have to decide which charity she’d like the least and it’ll keep us amused at the same time.

do you have to keep contact with your step parent or can you step away?

@MonkeyfromManchester that’s great news. 🥂 congratulations and well done. Really pleased for you.

@Tbry sorry to hear your friend treated you badly. Is it worth having any contact with her at all? At least you know your gut instinct about her was correct and can fully trust your own judgment in the future. Hope you treated yourself to something nice with the money.

I'm so pleased by your post about social services @MonkeyfromManchester that's a firm line drawn in the sand.
When I first had counselling for my awful childhood, the counsellor asked me why I was still in contact with my family of origin and I said it was because I'd have to sort out their elderly care. She said very firmly 'no, that's why we have adult social care'.
Hoping that you all stay strong and the hag goes back to her flat or a care home. It sounds as though a care home with the appropriate order so that becomes her permanent residence would be a good solution for you all.

@BlastAroundTheOutside you’re welcome! I wish we’d done this with the Hag. Her spare room is FULL of gifts people have bought her, which she rejects as either martyrdom or spite. God knows. We should make a donation to NSPCC for her at Xmas. The irony!

@Tbry i’m so sorry that your friendship is so painful. I definitely agree about doing something nice with the money, especially as you'd saved up.

@Parentalalienation thank you!

We’re not there yet, but definitely going in the right direction. I want the care home as the solution - in my head we’re already clearing out her flat - as that way she can’t lever the non-use of her Carers as a weapon to draw us in to empty her bin or do her laundry, back into her evil orbit. The contrast with my mum is incredible. My mum aged 77 - a young 77 as she has been determined to have a good life, especially after my dad died when he was 64 - would accept the help of carers, she got power of attorney in place when she was 70 and won't grow into a miserable old Hag.

Your counsellor us so on it with care. We are conditioned to take on care, even for people who have abused us. There must be thousands of poor souls up and down the land dealing with toxics. The toxic behaviour gets worse with age - the Hag hasn't becomd a sweet old lady. Far from it. They become even angrier, self-serving and entitled.

@Tbry yes my dad was my narc mums enabler. As @AttilaTheMeerkat would say he constantly threw me under a bus to placate his demanding wife, even when he knew she had gone too far.
Once you see how manipulative the enabler is you can't unsee it. Any normal man would step in when his wife was drunk, screaming, wrecking the house and beating his child but no he let her get on with it. My childhood was a nightmare and he sat meekly on the sidelines abdicating all responsibility. He also foisted responsibility for his wife onto me during my adult life, she was always in debt.
So I don't forgive my dad, I am not going to be a prick about it with him but once you see someone as they really are, things can never be the same.

@binkie163 flowers, but also agree strongly. I saw my dad as much more victimised than villainous, even though the abuse he gets seems like water off a duck’s back to him (and I can tell the difference when it is and when it isn’t, he isn’t just putting on a good show). Then one day I left my phone on while on speaker with my boyfriend and had what to me was a completely normal conversation and my boyfriend could barely speak after, he was wondering aloud how COULD my father speak to me like that, like I was nothing, with so much contempt.

Because I’ve been allocated the same side or team as my dad, with us both hated by my mother, I’ve been sad for a long time that he doesn’t ever step up to protect me and will even laugh and mock me when she gets to me because she doesn’t get to him.

@Tbry god, the enablers. Is it the threat that the abusers will turn the focus on to them? Are they just weak? Or are they brainwashed? Is it each life syndrome? Slave Son has voted for an easy life which is patently NOT easy. Is your dad sorry for any of this?

@binkie163 I think the enablers mock as it’s learned behaviour. Conditioning. Mr Monkey’s home as a kid was wall to wall ‘humour’ which has left him with 2cms of self-esteem.

Phone Call from Duty Social Worker this morning.
“Can you meet us at her flat?”
”why?”
”we need to assess it”
”you don't need to. She refuses to use the adjustments you made in 2020, we have cleaned the flat and removed the mouldy food and filthy clothes. You need to sort out extra care for her.”
”do you think she needs 24 hour care?”

Me (sotto voce ) “A ZOO”
But playing nicely “she seems increasingly unable to look after herself, she won't cooperate with carers, it's self-neglect”
“Do you think she has dementia?”
“Her GP recommended she go to the memory clinic in 2020, she refused. I think she has cognitive difficulties.”
“OK, maybe, 24 hour care is an option”
“I think we need to discuss it as a family”

I'm glad this has been dumped on my shoulders as I'm a bloody realist.

MM and Slave Son need to get with the programme on this.

She WILL refuse care, she will get dirtier. A care home isn't that far away. Even though I detest her, she does need more support. But we’re not doing it.