September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@pengyquinnn - It's not you, it's her. Toxic people never apologise for their behaviour and are incapable of self-reflection. She will never change. You have the option to cut her out of your life and start the long process of healing.

Alternatively you could go Low Contact, although toxic people hate boundaries and will trample them at every opportunity.

Whichever route you choose, bear in mind that her behaviour will ramp up as she rails against you changing the dynamic.

Look up Dr Ramani on YouTube and watch some of her videos on toxic narcissist mothers. And know that you are in good company here in the Stately Homes gang.

I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in.

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

That's a fantastic resource, @Escapingafter50years. Thank you.

I like your name. I don't think I'll manage it.

Thanks @BluebellsForest BluebellsForest - as to my name, I was grey rocking like crazy before I even knew it was a thing, I thought I'd last the distance but she went so far I had to pull back. Everyone has their limits, you might get there yet. Mind yourself.

A phrase I now use to flying monkeys (and to myself) is "What about me?". It's very hard for anyone to tell someone straight that they don't matter and I've found this question quite effective in shutting people down. More importantly, it is a reminder to myself that I matter.

Thanks. I have said exactly that. You know when someone says, "so what was their reply?" and it's like well, there wasn't really one? Afterwards it's hard to describe how they did react. She kind of grey rocks me. Shrugs?

placemarking so I don't get lost . This thread is a lifeline x

Thanks for the new thread. Both reading and writing here has been invaluable to me over the last few months.

I have gone no contact with 2 siblings and their flying monkeys (their partners and some of their adult children). I have also gone lower contact with my sister and mother - this is to take care of my mental health and establish better boundaries. My mother and sister are less toxic but I have had many issues over the years with them. However, they are more receptive to open communication and the boundaries I’ve set.

I am judged by the family I have gone no contact with on the frequency of my visits to my mother. They often ask my mum when I last visited or when I am visiting next. If I call my mother and they are visiting then they like to chip into the conversation to ask me when I last visited or when I am next visiting her. I find it both intrusive and judgemental. Am I over-reacting? I feel put on the spot and get all tongue tied when this happens. What would be a good response. I don’t want to be involved in this line of inquiry with them. Their favourite topic about me is a long running commentary on how I think I am better than everyone and that’s why I don’t visit or call them. It’s so hurtful to have had all the childhood trauma they caused (these siblings are over 20 years older than me) and then be judged. No love and all expectation from them! But also I have learnt over the last few decades that the expectation of keeping contact was just so they have someone to bully, put down, gossip about or create drama. I finally saw how bad it was when my father passed away for some reason. I think they unleashed an even nastier version of their narcism immediately after he passed away. Also, the physical distance of covid lockdowns gave me a lot of perspective.

Isn’t it just. ❤️

@tonewbeginnings it sounds like the family members you are no contact with are still getting to contact you through their interference with your mother. Is this what you are saying is the case?

An answer could be a very bland 'when it is suitable to both of us' and repeat similar to no comment

I get in a complete panic when asked by certain people I share DNA with when I have seen or spoken with other people I share DNA and/or a natural affinity with. I either play this down or get flustered. I'm aiming for bland, beige information diet. Perhaps this would help with your situation.

@tonewbeginnings
well it’s good that your LC with your parent and sister is helping you a bit. As for the others it is none of their business when you see or speak to anyone especially your mum. Are there set times they visit her? If so don’t call, visit, text or email on those times or a few hours each side.

You need to be able to see your mum without their digs or interference.

A good response, try to think of a few if you are put on the spot, would be something like that’s up to you and mum to decide or we are hoping for a day out together next month (you and mum ) and I’m sure mum will tell you all about it.

does your mum do things for them ie child/pet/house sit?

I have worked out in my situation I am best off not speaking to my parent at times when they are preoccupied with that sort of thing as it does not go well. for example if my DP is child sitting and I do not know and call then the child, one of my DNs, will be forced by my DP to speak to me not know what to say etc. I end up really upset every time afterwards and then my DP will say something ridiculous like well at least now you can’t tell me your siblings don’t speak to you (all of my siblings are currently not speaking to me so very very LC…their decision not mine) .

@HatchlingDragon thats good advice. In your case are all the DNA relations talking to one another or are they trying to find things out? My natural personality is to be chatty and just tell people stuff but now due to all the family dramas I’m having to no longer be like that and I struggle tbh and then my MH illnesses start up and my symptoms.

@HatchlingDragon yes, they are contacting me via my mother and often it’s a bit like @Tbry described - my mother will say ‘your niece is visiting, how about a chat’ then put both my niece and I on the spot. It’s awkward and this is when I get asked this question. I try to keep things neutral without any personal information or questions.

A bland beige response is what I also want to aim for. I think “when it is suitable to both of us” is a good option. What @Tbry said “we’ve planned some time together soon” would be good too. In response to when I last visited, perhaps I could just be informational and not too detailed like “over the summer”. It just feels nosy, intrusive and like they are attempting to build up this story of how little I visit, using guilt as a way to trigger a reaction or to put me down. These subtle digs have driven me to a bad mental state in the past.

I already don’t call when my mum has company, however occasionally it doesn’t work. I don’t ask my mum about who is visiting her or who last visited so sometimes I don’t know when she has company. It would be preferable not to have any run ins but having a few responses up my sleeve are good for when they do happen with the inevitable intrusive questions or comments.

Being able to visit my mum in my own way is not something that’s open for criticism. I feel I need to underpin that in my responses.

Another favourite comment from my narc family is about where I live. My brother loves share his opinion on how it is a polluted, over populated place full of rude people. I moved to a big city when I was young to get some distance from toxic family, heal and attempt to live rather than just survive. I actually love the hustle and bustle of the big city and have built a life here from scratch. One of the things I started to say in response to his comments is ‘I love the hustle and bustle of the big city’.

There’s a balance to be struck in saying enough to not be a victim, not saying too much so that it feels like you are a victim putting forward evidence for your existence and remaining neutral so that you are not feeding into a narc’s drama. These people are exhausting and best avoided as much as possible.

Thanks for the helpful tips 💛 I am sorry to hear that you also get panicked in these situations but it helps me feel less alone hearing that others are dealing with some of this stuff too.

Thank you all for the replies on my post the other day. I ended up having a very distressing evening.

so my mum texted saying ‘I’m cancelling our phone call. Your dad has had some poor health results from the doctor (she did give more detail but I’m going to leave that out) We just want to move on and not have any more arguments”

I said that I don’t want arguments either, but that my brother and I had both outlined things she had said and done that had hurt us and she took no accountability, so things will only improve if she’s willing to look at her own behaviour.

she then started harassing and pestering me until I spoke to her on the phone. I eventually gave in, and we had a call where her and my dad denied everything. They said they don’t understand how I could think they’re not excited about my wedding (they’ve literally not said one single positive thing about it since it’s been booked and refused to engage in any conversation about it!!), and that they’ve booked accommodation so that proves they’re supportive. She said I’m horrible to her, and just completely twisted and denied everything I brought up to the point where I started to feel like I was the issue even though deep down I know I’m not.

They then started basically telling me that my dad could drop dead at any time and implying that I was putting more pressure on him and making it worse. And she threw in a comment about hoping everyone is “still here” by the time I get married.

She randomly brought up when I lost my baby girl a few years ago and how they “dropped everything” to come and support me. She was wailing down the phone about how they helped me in that time etc etc. As if that’s not something that any parent would do anyway.

Every example of things I said she had done to hurt me she twisted and denied. She made out like my brother had moved on so why wouldn’t I (he hasn’t - he’s just refusing to take a call from her because he knows how these arguments go)

I think they are just very deluded people with zero self awareness.

@pengyquinnn
Oh that's rough. Sorry you had such an upsetting phone call.
I think you have to fundamentally accept that they will never be able to look objectively at the issues and they most certainly will not take any responsibility whatsoever for any faults or failings .
You are banging your head on a wall trying to change that and it is only giving you a headache ! They are continuing to control you by using emotional blackmail and guilt to keep you in line and that is not going to change.
I learnt this stuff the hard way myself by giving myself numerous headaches over the years but I realise now that all you can do is disengage from your expectations of them and go low or no contact.
Hope today is a better day x

Thank you @flapjackfairy . My brother and I both say that talking to them is like shouting at a brick wall, only less satisfying.

Im not going to go NC (yet!) but I’m going to keep things minimal and polite. My expectations are well and truly lowered. I’m just lucky to have amazing in-laws who love and support us, and are happy to let me vent - my father in law actually jokes that he’s going to walk me down the aisle on the wedding just to wind my parents up!!

@tonewbeginnings you are definitely not alone. A lot of it sadly sounds so very similar.

I continuously get ‘digs’ from all directions that I live a few hours drive from everyone. I had to move for work, I had to move to get away from the family drama, I had to move because prior to this they had all already moved away from our hometown and I was left there alone. Moving was a big step and I have to deal with the consequences myself every day that I’m now somewhere different, not home. They do not have to deal with any of that but continuously there are comments.

I’ve lived ‘away’ over a decade now and my home with my DP that we bought is here, so this is where we live and where our lives are. But now we own our own home rather than renting no one will visit us been quite a few years now too, somehow us buying a home added to it all.

We obviously now don’t actually want any visitors, especially as my siblings and their families will visit a nearby city but state it’s nowhere near us.

pengyquinnn

re your comments in quotemarks:
"Thank you @flapjackfairy. My brother and I both say that talking to them is like shouting at a brick wall, only less satisfying".

He is right. You need to drop the rope entirely that is held out to you.

"Im not going to go NC (yet!) but I’m going to keep things minimal and polite".

Do not kick the can down the road here by thinking oh I am not going to go no contact yet. Your parents cannot do minimal and polite; your mother deliberately used tests from the doctors re your dad as a means of controlling you. Then your dad chimes in saying he could die at any time; the emotional blackmail they both employed here is so very predictable it is like a script such people use. They used your late daughter as a means of emotionally getting back at you as well; that is a low blow. All of these are abuse tactics such disordered of thinking people use against their target, in this case you. Both of them are full of red flags. Your dad is her willing enabler and will continue to throw you under the bus out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. They will continue to deny everything and will not accept any responsibility for their actions. For the love of all that is good here do not have either of them present in any future family occasion, particularly your wedding, because they can and will try to ruin it. It would not surprise me in the least your mother had a face on all day with your dad moaning and groaning (using his tests from the doctor as further proof) in cahoots with his wife.

"My expectations are well and truly lowered. I’m just lucky to have amazing in-laws who love and support us, and are happy to let me vent - my father in law actually jokes that he’s going to walk me down the aisle on the wedding just to wind my parents up!!"

Keep fostering a close and happy relationship with the inlaws. And I would also ask him now to walk you down the aisle too.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to have a relationship with your parents as both are that disordered of thinking. She is a narcissist and he is her willing and able enabler. He really cannot be relied upon at all either.

@pengyquinnn I agree completely with @AttilaTheMeerkat . But I understand that they are already invited to your wedding which makes things much harder, especially emotionally for you.

You will probably feel as I do about my own parents (divorced) and siblings and families that for my wedding day they can just be polite and cordial to everyone as I have done at all family occasions I have ever been invited to, including siblings weddings. But sadly mine have not even said they are willing to come without something like ‘if that person does not come’ or ‘if such and such’.

A few years back we were going to find a venue, invite them all but then I kept hearing RED flags thrown in to phone calls so I (my partner thinks unwisely) sent a text to all concerned parties checking which location would be easiest and what day of the week etc etc etc. Was worded really nicely and some of the responses were far worse than I imagined. From the rude responses, we thought the problems were only on my side, it turns out my DP’s sibling, who lives nearby, will not attend under any circumstances and will not allow DN to attend either, even though said DN is an adult. Also my closest friend will not attend. And I thought the problems were only my family…..we then started discovering via logical thinking, me testing the waters with things and me having therapy that we are actually completely surrounded by toxicity. So wedding is now on permanent hold.

Thanks so much @AttilaTheMeerkat for the new thread. I don't post much but when my resolve re non-contact with birth family wavers, some of the posts here help to strengthen it.
@pengyquinnn I'm sorry things went like that the other evening. Your parents aren't going to accept their role and I would think about going no contact now and getting some peace back in your life. As Atila said, it's a well worn script to emotionally blackmail you with health issues and to make them the focus of attention.
@Tbry I would sack the lot of them off and have a wedding with only your closest friends and folk who will be there with joy and no strings attached. We didn't have any relatives other than the kids at ours and it was the best decision we could have made. We didn't spend time worrying about whether family members would behave etc and it took a lot of stress away.

@Parentalalienation thank you. We are now planning on it being just the two of us….just no idea what to do about witnesses.

We now know buying a house together and getting engaged both brought out all the massively toxic worst behaviour from everyone we know. So we now just focus on ourselves.

I'm really struggling with my stepfather. He has hated me since he came into my life more than 40 years ago. I am bullied and scapegoated by almost the whole family. We have had a terrible recent family bereavement. The funeral was made simply horrific for me. I'm worried about putting too much detail here so I know I'm not being very clear. He has ruined my life. Just wanted to say that to people who understand.

@marshmallowdreams so sorry to hear that. This is a wonderful thread everyone in here is so supportive even though we are all going through different things. Are you NC with all your family usually?

@Tbry I am a mixture of low contact and no contact usually. I do have a good relationship with a couple of siblings but the others are totally part of the whole toxic system.

@Tbry put a post up in the weddings channel with your date and location and ask for mumsnetters to be your witnesses x
If you're in Scotland, I'd be happy to be one x

Hugs to you, @marshmallowdreams that's awful. We don't choose our family but we can choose how much we engage with them. I'd be looking to cut all ties after that behaviour, they don't deserve you. Hope you're okay.