September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@MonkeyfromManchester (hope everyone else isn’t going to get bored of our dialogue and also aren’t we getting close to needing a new thread?) I think you and MM are doing the right thing and I’m glad you’ve got a suitable therapist, I just meant one to bridge the gap right now so he has someone to talk to once a week before the current one can take over. Not trying to be patronising! Just that some extra people for him (and you) to vent to might be beneficial. Given that you both have actual serious stuff going on with your mental health even beyond the abuse, it might help, or not, I’m no-one to say.

I don’t know whether these NMs actually forget what they do, ignore the fact that it’s horrible or genuinely don’t know? There must be an element of upbringing but there’s also a huge amount of “I always thought this was normal and it suits me so I’m just going to ignore you entirely”. Or “I went through some shit as a child so you should too, then pretend everything is fine!”

I have to confess I’m terrible with Christmas and even at this date don’t want to think about it because it’s terrifying - last year my mother had blanked me for a couple of months and I needed to move out before Christmas before my GP called social services and I actually did such things as go to see services at the cathedral where one of my dearest friends was playing, but the two years before I won’t deny I was just paralytically drunk because I could not cope at all. But our family Christmases have involved such things as people getting mildly drunk and threatening each other with knives, or my sister talking to a very sleepy me for fifteen WHOLE minutes (in two or three years) which apparently qualifies her for a medal of honour and has been ceaselessly mentioned for three years now. Right now my main concern is making sure Velvet doesn’t eat the Christmas tree but that’s because my parents are in Paris.

Cecile

I can assure you I am keeping a close eye on the thread number and when it gets close to 1000 I will set up a shiny new thread accordingly 😀

Sorry boss :) notice taken. The really pathetic and Stately Homes related part is I think that’s projected guilt for my boyfriend and me not buying more firelighters last week which I haven’t yet heard the end of. My boyfriend is a decade younger and didn’t grow up with open fires or stoves. I was left with “everything you need” and a prohibition on ordering anything. We had three firelighters and neither of us are Scouts. Of COURSE we used up all the damned firelighters and my boyfriend had to get out at the crack of dawn for his choir, we’ve not just got the two of us but also the adorable velvet who isn’t too well-upholstered herself - although she’s getting more and more stuffed.

Taking deep breaths this week re my mother and watching this. I am lower contact with her but trying to yellow rock and it is f*ing hard sometimes!!!

She is really offering the bate but I am not taking it - just had to say this out loud!

https://www.tiktok.com/@doctorramani/video/7203407172019948842

stay strong everyone 🤗

@tonewbeginnings The Dr Rami videos are a life saver, deep breaths indeed. I was not very good at any kind of rocking.

Hoovering is so difficult, we are conditioned to be kind, respond and be ever hopeful. I think it may have been @AttilaTheMeerkat who told me hope crushes joy, or something similar.

My mum died recently so I am for the first time feeling relaxed about xmas with no drama.

Hope does crush joy!

I have a bit of a dilemma - I have a business for which I have a small personal brand online. I mostly post about my business stuff but sometimes about the journey of starting then growing the business. Recently I have more self confidence to lean into my business and sharing of my personal journey more. BUT I am worried that my narc family will try to dismantle any success I have (it’s happened before).

How can I be online but also private at the same time?

I have already removed any family members who followed or connected with me on social media but I know they check stuff because of the type of questions they ask if I run into them - questions that are nosy, judgemental and try to put me in my place! I don’t want to live in the place they previously put me into.

Anyone navigated something similar?

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I don't think you're being patronizing at all. It's a really helpful suggestion. He's going to wait for the amazing therapist he has. She gave him lots of exercises to do which helped. I'm going to remind him to do them!

I can never make my mind up whether they do know what they're doing. I think they do because they can switch off and on the charm. Your mother does that as does The Hag. I don't think therapy would help them at all or if they accepted therapy they would wear it as a badge of honour. They are lunatics. Nasty lunatics.

Hag had a violent and poor childhood, but her siblings turned out absolutely fine and lovely people who were great parents. Hag was the youngest and when her father died (violent) she was left with her narc mother and expected to play the Irish traditional role of youngest left at home to look after mammy. That's her expectation of her sons. Have no life and look after her. She actually does nothing for herself now. Nothing.

Oh, Cecile, that's awful. Kittens with Xmas trees are just hilarious. I hope you manage OK over Xmas. Vent here.

Xmas used to be a lovely time for me. My family, Mr Monkey having a ball. The Hag was invited to join us for a couple of Xmas times, but her behaviour detoriated and she wasn't especially welcome but we went through the motions. My mum said categorily that she is not welcome after Hag screamed at me that I am not her family.

Normal lovely Xmas is being resumed.

Hag was going on at Slave Son that she was spending Xmas alone. Good. She has, however, bought my mum a decent bottle of wine - well, given MM the £ to buy one. Frankly, this is to bribe us and demonstrate what a lovely kind old lady she is. No one sees through the bollocks.

@tonewbeginnings good for you! You've spotted the bait and you're not engaging. Once you see the bait, it's a really powerful moment. Will check out that video.

We've just had the Hag visit. Well, not in her house. ABSOLUTELY BANNED. She sat in Slave Son’s car parked up on our street. MM - working from home - was summoned. The pretend reason was that she had cards for the wider family. MM went out to the car, why Slave Son couldn't walk up our tiny drive and hand them to MM is beyond me. Part of the game, obviously.

“I feel terrible, my rib hurts me.” Many times.
“Go to the doctor” many times
“Well, if you don't want to go, that's your choice.”
Cue quiet-ish screaming.
“I never see you. You never ring me.”
“I saw you for four hours on Saturday whilst I rang 111 to establish whether the double dose of meds you'd taken was dangerous”
“I don't remember.” (selective memory)
“That’s why you're going to the memory clinic”.
(She’d agreed to this)
“Not more appointments and doctors.”

She looked really scruffy. When the aggression doesn't work, then it’s head down and whimpering wwhich just doesn't work anymore. MM sees through the games.

Then Slave Son (idiot) drives off to take her home to his to give her lunch. Why the fuck Slave Son didn't bring the cards to our front door? But he's bullied into Stockholm Syndrome.

I predict she will ramp up behaviour before Xmas to try to force our hands. Not going to happen. She is absolutely not welcome to my family home and I never want to see her again.

Dreadful vile woman.

I've been quiet because - well - I struggle with this time of year. Even though I'm non contact with birth family, I still feel bad that I'm not buying for them etc. Writing cards for folks who are connected with them in some way gave me vivid dreams and body memory flare-ups.
I'm sending everyone positive thoughts and virtually standing next to you giving you support and encouragement to deal with your various narc relatives.

@tonewbeginnings yes my mum tried interfering in my business in the early years. I had to button down everything security wise. I made a slight change to my name on fb so I didn't come up in search. I blocked all family on fb, blocked all their email addresses. I had to tell my suppliers as she tried to get my new contact info off them. Tbh it's really humiliating but I found everyone was really nice about it, I deff got the impression some had experienced something similar. I also used the excuse with people I didn't know as well, that someone was piggy backing off my business which isn't unusual in engineering.
It just adds an extra worry and anxiety to stuff which I found mentally exhausting. Iv been in business 27 years so it didn't stop me.
I was just honest with people that my family can't help trying to interfere, some I told them my mum was bordering on insane.
Definitely block on social media if necessary make your business page private and only add potential customers.

@binkie163 this time of year is pure hell for many people. The abusers WRECK Xmas. I'm so glad you are going to have a good one. ❤️ I'm going to have a good one once we are lying on my mum’s sofas with good wine.

@Parentalalienation i hear you and I'm sending huge hugs. I'm sorry about the horrible dreams and bad body memories. The physical reaction is horrible. Mr Monkey has this.

@tonewbeginnings awful. They really have NO self-respect, do they? Imagine doing that if you'd fallen out with a friend or supplier, you'd be dignified. @binkie163 is wise here - Block, block, BLOCK. I think family discord (to put it mildly) is more common than we think. We internalise the shame as we’ve grown up with that. Few people talk about it as family is so bloody sacred. There are probably millions of us.

I've just cried down the phone at the care company to get this administration of meds to the fucking bitch sorted and sped up. Social services not pushing it through fast enough. I didn't even know social workers did this bit.

A simple leaflet explaining the fucking process to people would be brilliant. The endless acronyms explained.

Lovely care compsny man said carer calling at 4pm would record her meds - WHY ISNT’T THIS RECORDED ANYWAY - and he would escalate it to someone senior at social service so it can be risk assessed and SORTED. I’ve just packed up my laptop as I can’t work anymore, MM is shaking.

Social services sort out the meds risk assessment, the carers give them to the Hag, Age UK take her to hospital after Xmas, NO MORE. Slave Son can do whatever he wants going forward.

fuck her and fuck this shit.

RESULT. Care company will administer meds as of today.

Care company will call on the Bank Holidays at Xmas. We are not telling Hag so Hag cannot manipulate.

crying on the phone to care company worked.

HAPPY.

@MonkeyfromManchester thanks for your reply and empathy. Noone else I know outside of therapy understands what I mean by body memories!
I'm sorry to say it but I'm glad you got upset on the phone as it was needed to get things moving. It's wrong, we should be able to request things without emotion. The carers should surely have been recording meds given, food offered and so on anyway? The sooner they realise that the hag needs to be in a care facility the better for everyone concerned. I hope you and Mr Monkey get some respite from constantly being on edge about things now.

I've been lurking for a while, but thought it was about time I posted something. Here goes!

I had a pretty awful 1970s / 1980s childhood, with verbal and physical abuse from both parents, primarily my Dad.

To give an example of my parents' selfishness and emotional immaturity, aged 3-7 I was locked in my bedroom overnight because I used to wake early and my parents said they needed to sleep. It didn't matter what happened (illness, feeling scared etc), the door remained locked until morning. I was given a toddler's potty to use if I needed the loo.

I was regularly smacked by both parents, in particular my Dad. On three occasions I was hit with a leather belt, leaving bruises / marks on my legs and bottom.

I was yelled at, berated and criticised for incredibly minor things. Regularly told I was 'badly behaved' and 'selfish.' Often compared negatively with cousins, ie 'why can't you be more like x?'

I often felt as though we were walking on eggshells because our Dad's temper could explode at the slightest thing.

There are so many more examples. The physical abuse continued until my parents divorced when I was 13, but the verbal abuse / criticism continued well into my adult years.

I'm married with two grown up DC. I live about an hour away from my parents and keep visits to a minimum. My DB lives much further away, but is emotionally closer to both our parents and speaks to them every couple of days. Our parents are now elderly and in need of support. My DB would like me to be more involved in providing / coordinating this support.

My DB is an apologist for our Dad's abusive behaviour - for example he says our Dad was 'stressed.' He says he doesn't excuse the behaviour, then goes on to excuse it!

I feel as though I'm being pulled back into my parents' orbit in a way that I don't want.

I have a 'severe and enduring' mental health problem and feel I have to fight for my sanity. Getting more involved with my parents is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. Despite knowing this, I feel guilty about not helping them more, a situation not helped by my DB's subtle guilt trips. Wise members of Stately Homes, please can I lean on you?

You’re welcome @Parentalalienation I’ve been reading up on childhood trauma because of Mr Monkey. It’s horrible that abuse affects people on every single level. Hugs to you. Xx

Thank you, you’re right, I shouldn’t have to cry on the phone to get what’s needed. The carers record things and they are good, but my god the lack of communication between the different areas of care - hospital ward,hospital discharge team, occupational therapy, social workers and care company. I am so on this.

The fact the witch came in Slave Son’s car to our street to administer hurt to MM has really, really fucked me off today. IF she was 60, I’d take a restraining order out against her. She was stuck in the car whimpering to try and get MM onside. He has checked out of the dysfunctional family. GOOD. She deserves everything shit that life throws at her. She will die lonely and bitter.

Mr Monkey was shaking after they’d driven off. Obviously, trauma revisited him and he remembered The Hag hitting Slave Son in his TWENTIES with a wooden shoe and splitting his head open so he had to go to A&E. And then she did it again the week after. WTAF. MM saw that aged 15. Why didn’t they leave the Fucking bitch? Trauma bonded.

Our house is a sanctuary and makes MM feel safe and happy. That is never going to change.

@ThePensivePig welcome and lean on the fellow strong ladies of the Happy Stately Home. i’m so sorry you endured that awful, awful childhood. The abuse might ‘just’ become emotional (oh the irony) as one gets older, because they can’t beat you, but it’s still horribly damaging and triggering.

Couple of thjngs: society says we’re supposed to care for our abusers, especially elderly parents. No. They become more abusive, entitled and often nastier. Age gives them permisdion. Step away. You have no responsibilty to them.

Your brother will get you involved and with him being an hour away and you being a woman the majority of care WILL fall to you. My partner Mr Monkey found therapy really healthy, it gave him tools to cope with trauma and to deal with the daily guilt. The guilt has gone. He’s stepped away from the responsibilty of dealing with his horrible mother. It’s far easier to stay away from caring for the abuser than going back in and getting abused agajn and then exiting.

we’re here for you xxx

Thank you for the lovely welcome. It's much appreciated and I already know from reading much of the thread that I'll be understood by so many of you. I've recently started having therapy and I suspect it's partly this that has encouraged me to post on here tonight! Thank you xxx

@ThePensivePig it has helped Mr Monkey hugely. Keep chatting here. It's q forum that has made me so strong. Xxx

I agree, @ThePensivePig you're amongst friends who know all too well what you're describing. You're going to need to dig your heels in a great deal to stop your enabling brother from pulling you back in.
My first counsellor told me in no uncertain terms that I owed my parents nothing and that if they needed care as elderly people, that was what social services was there for. You might need to get them involved against everyone else's wishes, especially if they all think that you will step in as caregiver or care organiser.

@ThePensivePig you are so welcome here and so welcome to lean as much as you want/need. I can’t think up any words of advice in response to the horrible abuse you suffered and its effect on you, but know that you will always be heard and supported here even if we can’t find a solution.

The memories and body memories are the worst, hope you are OK.

Not related to my toxic family but I have PTSD from a decade of DV and from a sexual assault when I was a teenager. My body goes crazy at times, it’s like it relives it all. Regardless of however many calming techniques I try.

Thanks @Tbry I'm doing the whole scared to go to sleep thing in case I have dreams etc, not great when I've got work tomorrow!

@ThePensivePig I find it sad that no matter how far we move away, how well we are doing in our lives our own family unit,
how little contact we have with them, it's still a boiling cauldron of hurt, upset, fear and loathing. It's always there.
I was very low contact for years, it didn't work, endless phone calls, stuff needing help with. Both my siblings live within minutes but they phone me, I live abroad.
I was advised to go NC but it felt extreme abandoning frail old people who abused me as a child. In January I went NC, fear and guilt for 2 months then an enormous sense of relief. I also blocked siblings who are equally manipulative. My anxiety improved, able to relax and just not think about them.
It's not easy but when you have tried everything else it's our only choice for sanity.
It is NOT up to your brother what he WANTS let him do it if he wants to, he doesn't get to organize your life x

@Parentalalienation I still haven't read 'the body keeps score' I did read Louise Hay you can heal yourself and a brilliant book by Robin Norwood 'women who love too much' should be called daughters of narc mother's.
I am certain my 'imposter syndrome' insecurities and eventually anxiety came from my childhood shit. Looking back half my decisions in life were made from fear not common sense.
I am angry with myself for waiting till I was 60 years old to walk away and save myself.

The shiny new "so we took you to stately homes thread" is now up and running on this Relationships board so please use this rather than this current one (which will soon run out of space).

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4966179-december-2023-so-we-took-you-to-stately-homes