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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Friends anti family behaviour and it’s part in my divorce

229 replies

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 08:24

Long, but hopefully not boring as there is a question at the end…

Also, I need to be careful here as this is quite outing, but I need some advice and opinions and have name changed to mitigate risk.

Situation is that I am 50 and have been married with two now teenage DCs for 20 years. Socially me and H have belonged to a well established group comprising of similar age, affluent type people most of whom are also married with kids. Before marriage, we were ‘human traffic’ type mates, going out a lot and friendships turning into partnerships, living for the weeks types etc.

Over the years family demands obviously clipped the wings of our social lives and the women in the group have especially grown up, hit peri, relinquished parties, drinking and late nights as most have ft jobs and other, better things to do quite frankly. All pretty standard stuff I think. Some including me have really called time on clubbing, festivals, etc which considering our age is kinda to be expected.

That is all but one woman in the group. This particular individual has taken it upon herself over the years to be the party girl promoter, taking up DJing in her 50s, going out clubbing and socialising at every opportunity and dragging her husband along. She doesn’t work, he has a highly paid stressful job. They have two teenage DCs. It’s a bit of a running joke that he doesn’t really want to do the whole social life thing and is forced into it by her but in the past she has laid down the law and we know a few years ago she gave him an ultimatum and said join me or I’m leaving you. so to keep them together he works hellish hours and then goes out for three day festivals and nights out regularly leaving their two teenage DCs alone or with granny.

so, that’s their business, but over the years her behaviour has raised some eyebrows. She is really glam and a massive attention seeker and constantly pesters people to party with her, she’s only happy when the men are giving her attention and when she is getting compliments. Always got a drink in her hand. Some people admire her and say she is ‘marvellous’. Some people find her irritating because she rattles cages - including mine - by pressuring people into going out and clubbing, usually with cocaine, booze and pills in the mix, when everyone else have been busy paying bills, looking after family etc etc. there are mutterings behind her back that she is off the rails and that she has taken the whole middle class hedonism thing way too far, but she seems to thrive on this lifestyle and is so vivacious it’s difficult to dislike her.

i fall into the latter. She has upset me in the past and I have tried to tell her. Life for me and H has not been easy. Back in the day we were both party heads but we turned things around and built a nice house together, stayed in and focused on our family. We are not high earners and we had our differences but our hearts have always been in the right place and we worked bloody hard and focused on the kids. It paid off. We have built such a stable unit and the kids have absolutely now worried and are healthy and thriving. We have fewer dramas and issues than any other family we know. Settled, healthy and loving.

that is until now

over the last twelve months there have been lots of parties. The kids in the group are growing up and need less childcare so this gradual freedom is opening up doors for some to go to more things. Because it was a big birthday year, me and H ended up going to two big events with said party girl and quite a few of the others. one for instance was a trip for our joint birthdays along with others from the group. It was fun, but I can’t really drink or party any more and on all occasions I ended up VERY ill (self inflicted) for about three days afterwards whilst all the crap left my system. As a result I told DH that last year was the exception and that I have to stop drinking as it’s so bad for my well-being and mental health. I was happy to accept that at 50 I need to face up to the fact that I can’t hold my life together and pretend I’m 28 at the same time.

anyways, festival time comes around again this year and so H went on his own this time with party girl, her DH and some of her other mates. I was fine about that as accept we have different needs.

roll forward six weeks and he’s now leaving us. My youngest son is 15. He (H) claims he wants to go to parties and that he wants me to go too, but I don’t want to and that’s an issue for him. The fact I like staying in and a quiet life is a deal breaker for him. Even though I’m not stopping him going out he wants a partner in crime. He didn’t talk about it and has refused offer of counselling.

then, after a bit of pushing I also find out that at the festival he got off with one of the women in the group (he was microdosing on pills all weekend so was obviously on a certain frame of mind).

he of course denies that this is the reason for wanting to get out of our marriage now, and says that his behaviour is symptomatic of our bad relationship. I was perfectly prepared to wait until the kids were older to have this conversation and continue working hard and saving so we had some choices at 55 whether we stayed together or not. But no, he wants a social life and that’s that and he wants it now.

my question is, do you think that party girl is just a little bit culpable in this ending through pushing anti family behaviour over the years?

my view has always been that family life and ‘doing the right thing’ is hard enough so the last thing a couple needs is to have pressure and temptation laid at their door of someone saying to get your glad rags on dance the night away in hot pants and a bra. when you’re tired, when you’re skint and when you just want an early night this was very annoying and unsettling. And this has been consistent pressure, to join her way of life and live for the moment like that’s the answer to all your problems.

and now see what’s happened. Like the devil has been whispering in our ears and H being very easily led has finally given in and now our family is broken up.

we were fragile, yes, but not a lost cause and we had our priorities right. we got on, highly functioning in fact, now he wants to pack it in just as we were getting somewhere so he can kick up his heals and find a fun partner who likes to party. perhaps if our friends had been a bit more supportive then this would not have happened. I don’t know what do you think, has party girl chipped away over the years and contributed to our family’s early demise? I need to know because she’s supposed to be a good friend and I know she’ll be around to give hugs when the cat is out of the bag. I feel like at the moment she has been part of the problem as she bought unsustainable, unhealthy and anti-family lifestyle to our door that H has now let himself get sucked into. I know he is to blame of course and maybe me too, but I think our friends led by party girl have been a bad influence.

OP posts:
Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:37

I guess what I’m saying is that this thread is about her behaviour and not Hs. If his behaviour is symptomatic of a bad marriage then it can also be symptomatic of a bad friendship.

i am just trying to define the whole picture as no man is an island after all.

OP posts:
Howldens · 10/09/2023 09:38

I think I would feel like you OP. I’m not sure I would tell her though, because I think it would be too easy to dismiss my views as those of an angry woman scorned. But I would drop her like a sack of spuds - no fake hugs thanks.

Love all the PP advice to focus on crafting the life you want for yourself now. Channel all of your energy into that.

good luck. Divorce (if you go down that route) is painful and brutal.

also - what of the OW?

Howldens · 10/09/2023 09:39

Ps I’m a hot head so while I stand by the above… I probably would tell her. 🤪

Alleycatz · 10/09/2023 09:39

It is so tempting to look for blame elsewhere, but this is all your dh. This is who he is now: weak-willed, lacking in the commitment to family that you put a high value on, deceitful. People do change, just often not for the better.

Honestly it really is this @Damnthemall you are experiencing massive trauma and your mind is trying to make sense out of it but the reality is it will never make sense. What your husband is doing is blowing up your life, your children’s lives. It is horrendous. He is a complete shit. The other woman is just a sideshow in your life, how she chooses to live her life is of absolutely no consequence. When I had kids first the vast majority of DHs friends were still mad into the party lifestyle, when my kids were teens they were still at it even though most had kids too. Some are still at it and we still hang out with them sometimes. Your muted and calmed down lifestyle is not everyone’s lifestyle.

Lolapusht · 10/09/2023 09:40

But if your DH chooses partying instead of “boring” family life, then that just validates her choices. Of course she’s going to promote the idea of partying, she did it with her own husband but she’s not going to see anything wrong with it or give a single shiny shit if you say anything to her. She sounds like a terminally selfish person so anyone else’s opinion is going to irrelevant.

Leaving youngsters on their own regularly so you can go out is utterly selfish. I uses she didn’t really want children and she’ll probably be one of these hideous people who openly admit it in front of her children. No doubt her children will grown up with several problems that will be brushed aside cos they’re too inconvenient. I mean, if you want to be really shitty, why not convince her husband that it’s time he stopped pandering to her and started to give his children a stable, loving home life?

Like a pp said, I wouldn’t be surprised if your DH has a change of heart as it does sound like a classic mid+life crisis (which seems to be a male luxury women are not afforded).

MentholLoad · 10/09/2023 09:41

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:33

Perhaps the point of my thread is about friendship values and not marriage vows, as an aside to the situation.

I think I’m curious to know if there is a moral issue here whereby we should all better consider the consequences of our actions on other people.

im dealing with the marriage bit, believe me I am not making excuses for him I think he’s sad. But, I still think that on a friendship level party girl’s behaviour over the years has shown zero respect for other people’s lives.

I need to know if it is fair that right now I tell her she’s been a shit friend. I feel that she needs to know that life isn’t just one big party and she’s been winding ppl up and that there are consequences to the type of lifestyle she promotes with wild abandon and those casualties are now my kids

as with all friendship groups there are some of them that I want to stay in contact with and some I won’t. I am not lashing out at her but feel I don’t need to lie anymore and tell her she’s been an unhelpful dick all this time. This is between me and her and is almost aside from my Hs crisis. I want to tell ppl what I really think of her now but am afraid that I’ll regret it and see it like the majority of ppl on this thread in six months time. Perhaps I should give it more time, but how do I deal with her I’m the meantime? If I tell her what I feel then I may regret it but if I let her in and do big hugs then I can’t really go back on that later on either.

what?
she can live her life as she wants. You have been the shit friend if anything, by pretending to like her and be her friend. if you don't approve of her, then you could have just...not been her friend

itsgettingweird · 10/09/2023 09:42

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:33

Perhaps the point of my thread is about friendship values and not marriage vows, as an aside to the situation.

I think I’m curious to know if there is a moral issue here whereby we should all better consider the consequences of our actions on other people.

im dealing with the marriage bit, believe me I am not making excuses for him I think he’s sad. But, I still think that on a friendship level party girl’s behaviour over the years has shown zero respect for other people’s lives.

I need to know if it is fair that right now I tell her she’s been a shit friend. I feel that she needs to know that life isn’t just one big party and she’s been winding ppl up and that there are consequences to the type of lifestyle she promotes with wild abandon and those casualties are now my kids

as with all friendship groups there are some of them that I want to stay in contact with and some I won’t. I am not lashing out at her but feel I don’t need to lie anymore and tell her she’s been an unhelpful dick all this time. This is between me and her and is almost aside from my Hs crisis. I want to tell ppl what I really think of her now but am afraid that I’ll regret it and see it like the majority of ppl on this thread in six months time. Perhaps I should give it more time, but how do I deal with her I’m the meantime? If I tell her what I feel then I may regret it but if I let her in and do big hugs then I can’t really go back on that later on either.

Op. In the nicest possible way you are very intense and are overthinking this.

She's just a friend. Another person in your life. It's really odd to think someone should be a different person than they are because it doesn't suit your life choices.

Why haven't you as an adult pulled away from this friendship years ago if it doesn't work for you? Why have you stayed and expected her to change who she is for you?

Why has her husband stayed instead of leaving?

As annoying as she sounds (I wouldn't be friends with someone like her) so far she's the only person in this story who sounds normal with regards actually understanding what being true to yourself is.

Let her live her life.

Let her DH choose to live her life if he's too weak to leave.

You live your life.

Let your dh leave his life because he's chosen a different one to the one you think he should live.

Let all the adults experiences the consequences of their own adult choices. And stop blaming everyone else for adults choices.

OhYetAnotherBrickInTheWall · 10/09/2023 09:42

I need to know if it is fair that right now I tell her she’s been a shit friend. I feel that she needs to know that life isn’t just one big party and she’s been winding ppl up and that there are consequences to the type of lifestyle she promotes with wild abandon and those casualties are now my kids

Unfair of you to tell her this. Her life is her choice. She’s not set out to ruin your marriage or hurt you. As you’ve exercised, you have agency here and have declined her nights out. Your husband had the same choices. She has not done anything wrong.

MentholLoad · 10/09/2023 09:43

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:37

I guess what I’m saying is that this thread is about her behaviour and not Hs. If his behaviour is symptomatic of a bad marriage then it can also be symptomatic of a bad friendship.

i am just trying to define the whole picture as no man is an island after all.

it's not symptomatic of a bad marriage. that's just what he told you. it is symptomatic of him having a midlife crisis and being a selfish shit

WunWun · 10/09/2023 09:43

She isn't even vaguely culpable, not even the tiniest bit. You don't even have the slightest grounds to be angry with her. Her lifestyle has absolutely no effect on you. This is 100% about your husband.

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:43

Howldens · 10/09/2023 09:38

I think I would feel like you OP. I’m not sure I would tell her though, because I think it would be too easy to dismiss my views as those of an angry woman scorned. But I would drop her like a sack of spuds - no fake hugs thanks.

Love all the PP advice to focus on crafting the life you want for yourself now. Channel all of your energy into that.

good luck. Divorce (if you go down that route) is painful and brutal.

also - what of the OW?

Yes this is what I’m afraid of. I want to say my bit, but i am then the baddie. Perhaps, just perhaps they will dig their own graves. If I keep my mouth shut I don’t think they will come out looking great. They don’t need me to give them enough rope.

OP posts:
SD1978 · 10/09/2023 09:44

You say yourself that you were just muddling along and would reevaluate being together at 55- so neither if you sound as you were that happy, but you were along because it wasn't actually shite. He has (rightly or wrongly) decided that ok isn't enough. Whilst I do think he's made a stupid decision based on one weekend if a festival showing him what he thinks is missing, it's probably more the catalyst than the cause.

Blough · 10/09/2023 09:44

‘I need to do the official line to our network’ What? These people are your husbands mates though?
Your OP was obsessing over this woman and the tedious partying, misplaced, you chose to marry a man so pathetic you think he was blindly led by this ‘anti family’ woman to put in penis in some woman. Why continue to obsess over these annoying people when you could be planning your new life, free of these pricks?

Snoken · 10/09/2023 09:44

No, she’s not a bad friend because she likes to party. If she was a keen cyclist and she got your H involved in it and he met another woman there would that also her fault? She isn’t forcing anyone to do anything. She doesn’t have that type of power over others, including her husband. Everyone in this scenario has a free will. If your H didn’t want to do go out partying, if he didn’t want to meet someone else, he wouldn’t have.

Just leave her to it. If you don’t want to be her friend that’s fine, but you can’t go and tell her that she is anti-family or a bad friend. She is just different to you and that’s fine. Other people like her but she isn’t your cup of tea.

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:46

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:43

Yes this is what I’m afraid of. I want to say my bit, but i am then the baddie. Perhaps, just perhaps they will dig their own graves. If I keep my mouth shut I don’t think they will come out looking great. They don’t need me to give them enough rope.

And what do you think about the OW? He says he has ‘options’ and they are still on communication. I think they are an item from how he is acting. All this is actually quite out of character as he’s usually quite a low risk taker and a bit lazy. So, knowing him, I think he was coasting along and a bit bored of life and she has come along and given him the spark.

OP posts:
IrritableVowel · 10/09/2023 09:47

@Damnthemall

I see where you are coming from, I really do, but can I ask-

If this woman has been at best tedious, at worst the person actively trying to break up marriages, by promoting a lifestyle that isn't aligned to your idea of a relationship

Why are you and you husband still in her company?

If she is (intentionally or not) the root of issues for years, why didn't you both step back from hanging around with her?

If your husband knew your concerns and didn't pull back, either your concerns were not reasonable (to him, and maybe not to others) or he didn't want to put you ahead of his friendships.

It's not her lifestyle at fault
If she has been a shit friend, bending your husband's ear, resulting in him being influenced by her... she should have been put out of your lives years ago

Your husband should have agreed this with you, years ago.

itsgettingweird · 10/09/2023 09:47

I think the OW has nothing to do with this.

Adults make their own decisions.

You've made a terrible one staying friends with someone you openly despise and are making another terrible one trying to blame everyone else for your dh behaving like a shit.

I get grieving a relationship when cheating. I've been there.

But the blame lies solely at the feet of your dh.

audweb · 10/09/2023 09:49

This is on him.

from what I can see your friend is living her life, as she wants to. You have lived yours as you want to. That’s it. If you never liked that lifestyle or you didn’t like her that was on you to distance yourself. She doesn’t need to change her life for you.

he’s made choices. The OW may not even know he is or was married, and even then, despite it not being a great choice, she’s not broken promises.

you need to start directing the rightful anger to the right place - your husband, not the women in your life or his life.

WunWun · 10/09/2023 09:49

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:43

Yes this is what I’m afraid of. I want to say my bit, but i am then the baddie. Perhaps, just perhaps they will dig their own graves. If I keep my mouth shut I don’t think they will come out looking great. They don’t need me to give them enough rope.

Why is it about how they look and giving them enough rope? Why is it a competition? You wouldn't look like the baddie, you'd look deranged because it's literally nothing to do with the friend!

You'd be better placed putting your energy into bringing more joy into your own life that worrying about what people will think and going over reasons it might have happened

Blough · 10/09/2023 09:49

Now you’re trying to blame the mistress. OP, it’s your shitty husband who is the sole issue here.

MolkosTeenageAngst · 10/09/2023 09:49

You’re being ridiculous, non of this is your partying friends fault. The world doesn’t revolve around you, your friend has the right to live her life as she wants. It’s not your place to tell her you don’t agree with her lifestyle and honestly, if your marriage was so weak that the offer of a few festivals and parties broke it that’s really not her problem. It’s normal for friends to invite friends out, she doesn’t have to change her lifestyle so she isn’t ‘tempting’ a bunch of grown adults to join her. If her husband made the decision to leave her because he didn’t like partying would it be your fault for living a lifestyle where you stayed home, constantly saying no to nights/ weekends out etc and making him think that’s what he wanted? Of course not! Your husband is a grown man, he’s obviously miserable in the marriage which is between you and him only, nothing to do with your friend.

Bottom line is it sounds like you don’t like this woman, which begs the question why have you maintained a relationship with her at all? Was it just so you have someone to judge and look down on and to feel all holier than thou about because you view your life choices to be oh so superior yo her? Did you enjoy having someone to hitch and moan and gossip about to others?

Sorry but you sound like the problem in this situation, by all means tell this woman what you think if you think it’ll make you feel better but expect to look like the unhinged one and to lose other members of the friendship group when your true thoughts and feelings come out and they realise how fake and judgemental and self centred you really appear to be.

nevynevster · 10/09/2023 09:49

OP the good thing about splitting up is that you can choose which friends you want in your life. And you are not obliged to choose her. If she comes over to offer hugs or whatnot ... you can choose whether to talk to her. I'd suggest choosing other more similar friends to confide in.

As to your DH, he also made his choices. I am not sure this women can be held responsible because if it wasn't her, it may have been someone or something else that triggered this in him. The point in he's decided he wants to chase his youth. Of course we all know that none of us are able to recapture those days but maybe some folks just want to try regardless. He may find a young person to hang out with but I think he'll find the grass is not always greener.

I am really sorry though you've been left high and dry. But please do hold on tp the positives- you have done a great job with your DC and you sound like a really well adjusted good person. You will be fine, no matter what happens. You got this!

WunWun · 10/09/2023 09:50

Damnthemall · 10/09/2023 09:46

And what do you think about the OW? He says he has ‘options’ and they are still on communication. I think they are an item from how he is acting. All this is actually quite out of character as he’s usually quite a low risk taker and a bit lazy. So, knowing him, I think he was coasting along and a bit bored of life and she has come along and given him the spark.

Men don't come out of long term relationships after children and fall into the next one often, it's extremely rare. He is probably just fucking her and keeping his options open.

Bruisername · 10/09/2023 09:51

I think people are being a bit harsh - it’s normal to look at all areas and try to understand for eg why a woman would be happy having an affair with a married man. Ultimately though all these things are irrelevant to the divorce which is between you and dh. Get all the anger and resentment out of your system towards your friend - keep her at arms length and focus on yourself and the kids. You are the rock here for them now as your dh has turned to putty. It’s not fair but you are going to have to be the strong one for them.

NOTANUM · 10/09/2023 09:52

her kids are left alone all night at age 11 and 14 whilst mummy indulges herself and slowly kills her DH whilst she’s at it. now my teenage son doesn’t have his dad and our family home is going.

So being this judgemental is not a good look. Behind the scenes you don’t know what’s going on. An alternative view is that her 14 year old is a paid babysitter to her younger child while grandparents are on standby, her DH grumbles but ready loves the “showiness” of it all and they’re happy as they are.

What’s more, if his head was “turnable” it doesn’t matter who was involved: it would have been someone at work, a client, whatever.

I understand you are hurting but focus your energy closer to home. You go high and leave these people to their own drama.

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