Affairs

[Theanswersalemon]

People who begin new relationships by cheating on their spouse/paerner end up "trading down" from their spouse. Often way down. Do you agree, or not?

People dismiss affairs as purely driven by lust. But it's not always so simple, in fact I think that's sometimes just an oversimplification that helps people ignore what's really going on.

I'm always recommending Daphne Rose Kingma's "Coming Apart" because what she says helped me to make sense of many things.

Her approach is that we're all gradually growing up as best we can, and are attracted to partners who help us to achieve what she calls the next "developmental task" in life. This is often entirely unconscious, and often not even erotic.

For anyone struggling to make sense of a split, I can't recommend the book highly enough... Especially make sure you do the exercises at the end. I learned so much about myself and it really helped me going forward. It should really be taught in schools.

She makes the point that our entire culture is fascinating by, and celebrates, falling in love, but not much is said about falling out of love, which is equally natural but doesn't sell movies.

Her approach is that we're all gradually growing up as best we can, and
are attracted to partners who help us to achieve what she calls the next
"developmental task" in life. This is often entirely unconscious, and
often not even erotic.

Sounds like narcisistic speak for using someone.

I regret the hurt caused to other people but my marriage needed to end and my AP and I really loved and were very good for each another. We are both no longer married, are still very close and have each others backs. For a variety of reasons I don't think either of us want or will end up in a standard relationship, or at least not for a long time. So it definitely wasn't a waste or something I regret.

Well quite.
As I said above, their choice of affair partner reflects their need to feel superior and more adequate.
Their new squeeze is much more likely to be impressed by their relative earning power than their ex wife was. The ex wife was too clever and self sufficient for his ego.
When reality hits and the new partner realizes that he too is a lazy arse who won't pull his weight with the mental/domestic load, then the cycle starts again.

@PosterBoy I can't answer your question as I don't know/know of any wc men who cheated. Maybe they they are all doing what they're supposed to do ie work to support their families, instead of indulging their entitlement issues?

I did know a chap who read leccy meters who said he was propositioned by a couple of women when he had his head in their meter-box. He was out of there like a shot.

You're just describing a few friends then, in a middle class bubble, where the men have ended up with someone from a lower class (or did they end up with them? or just an affair?).

Probably a bit of confirmation bias there 'omg the hairdresser ... how could he ....' while half of them are probably also shagging each other after dinner parties, but that doesn't raise as many eyebrows.

@Tangerinedreams3 "Their new squeeze is much more likely to be impressed by their relative earning power than their ex wife was. The ex wife was too clever and self sufficient for his ego."

An excellent summation.

I was the higher earner in my first marriage which gave me options. It meant I knew didn't have to tolerate his multiple damaging behaviours, as I could afford to leave.

He liked the lifestyle my earnings helped to give us, but he didn't like the lack of control of me. It seems he decided blow up the marriage rather than live with this lack of control.
His OW was much younger, "not right sharp", as we say around here, few work prospects was gullible and could be manipulated. She sucked up all his lies about me, his promises of a 'wonderful relationship' and they eventually married.

It reminds me of that old Chinese curse "may all your wishes come true".

Surely the meaningful thing about whether they "traded up" or "traded down" is whether they're happier with the new person, not the class or income or whatever other external measure you're applying.

@PosterBoy "You're just describing a few friends then, in a middle class bubble, where the men have ended up with someone from a lower class (or did they end up with them? or just an affair?)."

First couple - split up after he gave her an STD. He dumped the biker chick after a few months and eventually married another lecturer.

Second couple - they divorced and after a year or so the wife died and he married the OW.

Third couple - they divorced and exH married OW. ExH died a year later.

Fourth couple - they 'reconciled' and had another child. Husband left to live with OW when child was a baby. Years later she divorced him and he married OW who had 2 teenage children.

None of the women who are still alive have remarried.

I absolutely get that people are hurt by betrayal, but I honestly don’t think there’s anything to be gained by demonising people who have affairs. A significant percentage of the population is unfaithful — it’s not in line with necrophilia stats in terms of rarity, more like littering.

In terms of person, I don’t agree that the affair partner is always a downgrade, but I understand the point you’re making. I have seen a few affair partners be an upgrade on paper but I do always think of an affair partner as morally comprised. So in that sense, they do often seem to be a downgrade.

Or they want their cake and eat it.

Well yes and that too 🙈

I would say the opposite, the people l know who have had affairs have upgraded in looks and lifestyle. If one partner keeps themselves fit and healthy and the other doesn't this alone will cause enormous problems.

@SecondhandSalute "A significant percentage of the population is unfaithful — it’s not in line with necrophilia stats in terms of rarity, more like littering."

😆
Necrophilia is more common than you think.

Warning for the squeamish.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8008101/sick-people-sex-corpses-necrophilia/

I'll share my experience.

My ex and his AP both cheated to be together.

She is much younger than him and had she gone to uni, would just have finished this year. He is approaching 34. Because she never went to uni, she still lives at home and he owns a property.

I think, but don't know for sure that she probably had an unstable upbringing. Her dad has been married several times, she has a couple of half siblings, one of which committed suicide. She probably just wants a stable man in her life and if she does what my ex says, then she will probably get that. She likely won't be happy though as he is a great manipulator and has sexually exploited at least 2 previous partners.

I am early 30s, earn more than both of them put together and think I'm probably in the top 10% of earners for my age. I left home 13 years ago, own a property and had a very stable home life growing up. I had started calling out his behaviour in an attempt to make him take accountability before he started grooming her.

I didn't realise the full extent of his behaviour and the effect on me until I was months out of the relationship.

So he probably thinks he has traded up because there is a natural power imbalance and he will have more control.
Sho probably thinks she's hit the big time having this great older man, but the cracks will be starting to show now if they hadn't already.
I feel sorry for her as she has no idea what she is getting into.

Yes I felt betrayed, but also overwhelmingly glad now that he did what he did.

I think every single case is different and we can't generalise.

Surely a partner whether an AP or primary partner should be judged on more than their looks or earning power. Isn't a relationship about how someone makes you feel, how well you get along, similar values etc. I don't think anyone can judge whether someone has traded up or down cos you don't know how the primary relationship really was or what the relationship with the AP is like. If a man or woman is in a sexless loveless or abusive relationship and finds someone who they have that relationship with and that makes them happy shouldn't the happiness be the basis for judgment. I think it is kinda what the betrayed or the onlookers say to make themselves feel better or suit their own narrative.

Well, yes, kind of, in the way that a houseplant "uses" the soil in a pot.

I would say Madonna/whore complex but then I'm not a psychologist
I've known men who have similarly "traded down" (as you put it – ugh!) and what attracted them was being with someone more easy-going and appreciative than the high-maintenance snob at home. It's not always just a sex thing.

@Alcemeg "I've known men who have similarly "traded down" (as you put it – ugh!) and what attracted them was being with someone more easy-going and appreciative than the high-maintenance snob at home. It's not always just a sex thing."

The examples I gave certainly weren't "high-maintenance snobs". They were women who paid their own way and contributed more than half to the family funds and lifestyle. I was in that bracket as well.
They often put in longer hours than their 'D'Hs and wanted some kudos for their business acumen and entrepreneurship.

I've no doubt that there are some women who think they are 'To the Manor Born' but I don't know any of them !

I've known men who have similarly "traded down" (as you put it – ugh!) and what attracted them was being with someone more easy-going and appreciative than the high-maintenance snob at home. It's not always just a sex thing
@Alcemeg you call it easy going and appreciative, others might call it desperate and dependent.
Sadly these men are good at putting a good show at first.

The women might have been putting a lot into the marriage/household: it doesn't necessarily mean that the man was happy with the dynamics or the relationship. If a person knows he's not pulling his weight, to me, I think there's going to be a creeping sense of guilt, but in lots of cases, not the kind that sparks action to do better.

And familiarity breeds contempt sometimes, I think you can get to the stage where you've heard all his stories and you're picking up his slack and you've heard all his excuses before, so you're not as adoring as you might once have been, quite naturally.

So the novelty of someone who hasn't heard it all before and the excitement of New Relationship Energy is a trade up as far as he's concerned. Plus it's a new start, he has a clean sheet with the new woman.

@category12 "The women might have been putting a lot into the marriage/household: it doesn't necessarily mean that the man was happy with the dynamics or the relationship. "

That could well have been true, but it doesn't excuse cheating. If the men didn't speak up and articulate their dissatisfaction, then there was no way it could be fixed.

Their lying was not contingent on who we were or what we did. Lying was their choice and their problem, and if they made that choice with us, they will make it with any other woman they're with. It also means that if they didn’t like certain things about us/the relationship, they had many ways to address them besides lying.

Maybe it couldn't be fixed, but in that case the choice is to either a) agree to live with it or b) agree to divorce.

All the women I mentioned (and including myself) would have been able to get a mortgage, buy a property/buy the man out, leave and look after kids.
(This is what happened anyway when the affairs were revealed).

Where did I say it justifies cheating?

The question raised was why cheats "trade down" in your opinion, and I was responding why the cheat might consider it a "trade up" even if by measures of finance or status or class it isn't.

I'm sure they do consider it a trade up from their own personal viewpoint. Objectively to everyone else, it's easy to see what's going on.
What's not to like?
A new shiny affair partner. She or he is not demanding of them in the the same way as the abandoned spouse was. No nags to unload the dishwasher or take the bins out. No hassle from the affair partner about going to the pub with mates again.
Want to buy a sports car instead of paying for a new wardrobe and a room that needs decorating? No problem, the affair partner loves fast cars.
Etc etc
From a heteronormative M/F viewpoint, the female affair partner is the 'Cool Girl'

https://genius.com/Gillian-flynn-gone-girl-cool-girl-monologue-book-annotated

@Tangerinedreams3

Yes many relationships that are traded in are just a reset button for power.

Being wealthy, professional, a higher class are not protection for longevity.