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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

His mortgage application with OW landed on my doormat!

236 replies

Theonlywayisup1 · 12/05/2023 23:58

I was with my ex fiancé for 10 years, long story short 12 weeks before our wedding he went cold and distant. He swore there was no one else…of course he was shagging someone from work! But he never told me, kept her a secret from everyone, kept messaging me daily saying how he wanted to sort things out, I’m his soulmate blah blah. A month ago I found out he’d been with her since before we separated, has been with her for over a year, all whilst telling me the most elaborate network of lies.

Today a letter addressed to him & her landed on my doormat. I opened it to find details of the house they have bought and all mortgage details! We have been separated for over a year, but up until just a few weeks back he was messaging me confessing his love. I changed my phone number as I couldn’t deal with his words and actions not matching, now I know why! I have started to see someone new, and he can’t understand why seeing this has upset me. Should it bother me that he’s lived this double life and seems to have committed to her so quickly? I’m confused if I’m being unreasonable for this upsetting me?

OP posts:
MySugarBabyLove · 13/05/2023 11:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

it’s her business if he’s using her address to apply for a mortgage yes.

Or do you think that she should wait until her credit rating is affected due to the amount of debt being attached to her address which she wasn’t responsible for?

FrostyFifi · 13/05/2023 11:57

It's a criminal offence to open someone else's mail, even if it's sent to your address

This myth keeps popping up. It's only an offense if you open it with intent to commit a fraudulent act.

Monster80 · 13/05/2023 11:58

Another vote for BBQ’ing the paperwork…

FrostyFifi · 13/05/2023 12:02

None of her business though is it. Fucking tapped exes opening and hiding peoples mail. Leave em alone and get on with your own life.

If you feel that strongly about it, set up a mail redirect and then contact the relevant companies to change your address with them and stop blaming exes for your own laziness and disorganisation.

Thesharkradar · 13/05/2023 12:02

It all sounds highly dodgy, make sure you're covered op 😬

RedRosette2023 · 13/05/2023 12:06

monsteramunch · 13/05/2023 11:56

@RedRosette2023

Totally disagree that she doesn’t meet the criteria you have bolded.

From the information we've been given, what evidence do you think would meet a legal threshold to prove she was 'intending to act to ex's detriment'?

She wasn’t opening it out of the kindness of her heart. She was being nosey if nothing else - her curiosity is not advantageous to her ex.

I’ve looked briefly for some case law which is where you’ll find the wording tested, but honestly cba to explore it more but disagree that her intentions were innocent.

Bathintheshed · 13/05/2023 12:11

Fannehflaps · 13/05/2023 11:43

Yes, it is. She was opening it to spy on her ex. why else would she have opened it mail that hasn’t got her name on it?

Show quote history

Spying on an ex's mail would be turning up at his address, intercepting his mail and reading it. 'Fucking tapped' would be having your mortgage application with your new girlfriend sent to an existence address. You sound incredibly naive and open to fraud.

Xenia · 13/05/2023 12:11

Theonlywayisup1 · 13/05/2023 08:19

Oh there’s so much more to this. They’ve lied on the application, saying they are both living with families, I know for a fact he/they rents a house. He is being investigated at work and very likely is to lose his job, they’ve stated that there is likely to be no change in their financial circumstances. He’s using another property that we owned to fund the deposit, yet that property isn’t sold yet, so is borrowing the money from a family member. It makes for quite a good read if I’m honest 😂. He’s a pathological liar and I don’t trust him as far as I could throw him. The strange thing is that I’ve just bought a new house and my mortgage offer was granted the day this letter turned up (it’s a letter from their broker outlining what property they’ve applied for a mortgage on, not an actual offer or full application). Not once has he had post turn up here, and I know he had a mail divert on. It feels like he’s got it sent here to rub it in my face that he’s bought a house with her (best part of a million pounds too, so not a little cheapy)

It sounds complicated. I would do whatever ensures you can sell the other property you jointly own with him - so perhaps cause no trouble until then unless you have a legal duty in relation to discovering this possible mortgage fraud from opening his post you have a duty to report it. He might be trying to trap you in some way however by having it sent here and it may not even be from the mortgage company but be a fraud so I would go very slowly and ideally take legal advice before doing anything.

Do a regular check on what he has registered on the home where you live if you own that). I think you are not married which is a very different legal position than if you were and am not sure in whose name (if owned) your current place is in.

Bathintheshed · 13/05/2023 12:11

*ex's address

CheshireCat1 · 13/05/2023 12:17

Make an appointment with a solicitor, take the letter and explain the situation so that your back is covered.
I can fully understand why this has upset you, it’s still early days yet.

monsteramunch · 13/05/2023 12:23

@RedRosette2023

She wasn’t opening it out of the kindness of her heart. She was being nosey if nothing else - her curiosity is not advantageous to her ex.

Absence of kindness is not evidenve of malice, especially when it comes to meeting a legal threshold. Absence of proactively good intent isn't evidence of intent to act to someone's detriment either. Neutrality is an assumed starting point, with evidence required to move the dial from there.

I’ve looked briefly for some case law which is where you’ll find the wording tested, but honestly cba to explore it more but disagree that her intentions were innocent.

We can agree to disagree, absolutely.

But as explained above, the starting point is neutrality and evidence is required to move the dial from there. Absence of evidence of kindness or proactively helpful intent does not equal evidence of malice of proactively detrimental intent. At all.

JudgeJ · 13/05/2023 12:24

endofthelinefinally · 13/05/2023 00:04

I would photocopy them, then return the originals to sender as not known at this address.

Better still, return them marked Deceased, that should cause him a few problems!

JudgeJ · 13/05/2023 12:28

SiouxsieSiouxStiletto · 13/05/2023 06:49

Please do this OP if you don't do anything else.

It's scarily easy to transfer ownership of a home to your name.

Also agree with everyone saying "return to sender, not known at this address".

Show quote history

Just as a sideline, you can register with the Land Registry to be notified if anyone tries to sell your property, I think it followed some horror stories where houses were sold without the owner's knowledge and they had problems reversing the sale, if indeed they could.

SchoolTripDrama · 13/05/2023 12:28

OP, if you think he's sent it there to rub it in your face then do NOT tell him it's arrived! Don't give him that satisfaction. Whatever you choose to do about it/with it, just don't say a single word about it! Make him worry

Lindjam · 13/05/2023 12:29

JudgeJ · 13/05/2023 12:24

Better still, return them marked Deceased, that should cause him a few problems!

Show quote history

I like your style @JudgeJ 😂😂😂

CharlottenBerg · 13/05/2023 12:38

Fannehflaps · 13/05/2023 11:49

She didn’t know what it was until she opened it, so I still don’t see how you can justify it any other way than her being very nosy & trying to dig n use the info for malicious intent, and that is illegal.

You sound a bit like a man, with all this 'spying' talk. The envelope could have (probably did have) the name and logo etc of a mortgage provider, and also a return address, prompting legitimate interest. Just because using information leads to a result unfavourable to someone, that doesn't make it 'malicious', especially if the unfavourable (to the ex) outcome is the curtailing of fraud or financial abuse. You really should take a good long look at yourself, starting with your user name.

BeeBowBeeBow · 13/05/2023 12:42

Delete him from everywhere and block. Return letter to sender as Addressee not known. Move on with having a wonderful life and don't spare a thought on him. Any other post Return to Sender

Theunamedcat · 13/05/2023 12:59

FrostyFifi · 13/05/2023 12:02

None of her business though is it. Fucking tapped exes opening and hiding peoples mail. Leave em alone and get on with your own life.

If you feel that strongly about it, set up a mail redirect and then contact the relevant companies to change your address with them and stop blaming exes for your own laziness and disorganisation.

If I hadn't opened my exes mail he would have been arrested which would have upset the children he managed to work out how to change his driving licence address after that

RedRosette2023 · 13/05/2023 13:17

monsteramunch · 13/05/2023 12:23

@RedRosette2023

She wasn’t opening it out of the kindness of her heart. She was being nosey if nothing else - her curiosity is not advantageous to her ex.

Absence of kindness is not evidenve of malice, especially when it comes to meeting a legal threshold. Absence of proactively good intent isn't evidence of intent to act to someone's detriment either. Neutrality is an assumed starting point, with evidence required to move the dial from there.

I’ve looked briefly for some case law which is where you’ll find the wording tested, but honestly cba to explore it more but disagree that her intentions were innocent.

We can agree to disagree, absolutely.

But as explained above, the starting point is neutrality and evidence is required to move the dial from there. Absence of evidence of kindness or proactively helpful intent does not equal evidence of malice of proactively detrimental intent. At all.

By “legal threshold” you mean beyond reasonable doubt? This is a criminal matter and so beyond reasonable doubt is the burden here.

I don’t need “evidence” to form a view of the intent behind OP’s actions. I’m allowed an opinion on the basis of what I’ve read.

We are not in a magistrates court (this is a summary offence). It’s MN pal.

What does “to the detriment” mean? That could be absolutely anything disadvantageous to the rightful recipient of the mail. Like I said, I haven’t looked at caselaw where this will be explored or tested. But the natural meaning of the word detriment (which is the meaning taken where case law does not elaborate further on the interpretation) “the state of being harmed or damaged.” It could easily be harmful to open someone else’s post and it’s not difficult to imagine why.

RedRosette2023 · 13/05/2023 13:20

JudgeJ · 13/05/2023 12:28

Just as a sideline, you can register with the Land Registry to be notified if anyone tries to sell your property, I think it followed some horror stories where houses were sold without the owner's knowledge and they had problems reversing the sale, if indeed they could.

Show quote history

Yes.

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/?fbclid=IwAR2tPZ9dySExRVbAEhJhwJaCxS4X2Q33oKHw7CuqhzlFlwgYE-1blcssfw4

The land registry introduced this with the rise in identity fraud.

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/?fbclid=IwAR2tPZ9dySExRVbAEhJhwJaCxS4X2Q33oKHw7CuqhzlFlwgYE-1blcssfw4

EmotionalSupportWyrm · 13/05/2023 13:26

It was not redirected because her name was also on it @Theonlywayisup1 - he clearly didn't realise this. As far as the Post office systems are concerned the other person might be you - and you would be entitled to get the mail.

MMmomDD · 13/05/2023 13:42

OP - if you are actually trying to move on from this - move on.
Currently you are only getting more stuck in the blackhole that can keep you from being free off your ex for some undetermined time.
If I were the guy dating you now and saw this thread - I’d be running as fast as possible. You are clearly still hang up on the ex and not ready to have a relationship.

Don’t make up some sort of obligation to report fraud. It doesn’t apply to this situation. You know perfectly well you were not supposed to open that letter.
Your main motivation is just being vindictive and to lash out.
For your own sake - move on.

MySugarBabyLove · 13/05/2023 13:56

Whether the OP opened the letter because she hasn’t moved on is a separate issue from what that letter contained.

It could be argued that she shouldn’t have opened the letter. But the fact is, she did, and having done so she has discovered that her ex has applied for a mortgage using her home address, and that is fraud.

Legally you are obligated to report fraud if you are aware of it. Not doing so can end up in a fine and/or a prison sentence, and to all intents and purposes the OP is implicated in the fraud and her address is involved.

Given the messages the ex has been sending to the OP, it would be easy for him to argue that she had agreed to use her address for the mortgage. If the OP doesn’t reveal that she is aware of this letter and has no part in it she could be in trouble.

Nobody is going to prosecute the OP for opening a letter which has turned out to be the confirmation of a fraudulent mortgage application.

I agree the OP needs to move past this, and I don’t necessarily think the new partner is unreasonable to be upset that the OP is so upset over her ex buying a house with the new woman.

But that is a separate discussion from the fact that there is actual fraud here.

RedRosette2023 · 13/05/2023 14:09

Legally you are obligated to report fraud if you are aware of it. Not doing so can end up in a fine and/or a prison sentence, and to all intents and purposes the OP is implicated in the fraud and her address is involved.

That’s not true - we do not have bystander laws in this country.

Original poster
Theonlywayisup1 · 13/05/2023 14:36

just to clear any confusion up, this letter was opened whilst opening the rest of the post, I live alone and do not check who it is addressed to as I have no need to.

OP posts: