Is any woman impossible to abuse?

[Sushi4Dins]

Just that really. Do you think there are women who just have zero tolerance for crappy behaviour, end things at the very first red flag and just will never find themselves in abusive relationships?

If so, what characteristics do you think these women have that make them able to do this?

[cymylog]

@DontGetEvenGetEverything

I think most people underestimate how clever, careful and manipulative abusive males are.
But, having said that, I think they choose their victims. No abuser stumbles into a relationship and then, oh no, I just can't help abusing my partner. They choose victims who lack emotional, social and financial resources. Same with sexual abusers, targeting kids (including their own) who don't have a trusting relationship with any adult.
So, I'd suggest, it's not that un-abusable women spot the red flags. It's that abusive men are smart enough to only do what they can get away with.

I always thought it was this - slow erosion of confidence and resetting slowly their victims perceptions and often the people surrounding the victim about what is normal and how much is their doing.

There was that TV show fairly recently - Maid- American women who was trying to leave abusive ex - he hadn't hit her yet but as another women was explaining to her they often start by throwing plates and glasses near you before they hit you - it's a slow escalation.

Dh and I have both had toxic workplace that slowly grew worse and it is often a boiled frog situation. We managed to find other jobs and leave - but my Dad was stuck in a dying industry and his attempts to retrain were hampered by so many dependents and then his age. So I think its similar more dependent you are the harder it is to leave and I think abusive men work hard on getting their victims dependent on them.

[BoredBetsy]

I've been talking to a young family member recently about relationships. I told her to always, always notice what your partner does rather than says. Don't believe excuses like 'I'm sorry I blew up at you for this petty reason but I'm stressed at work' because only a person who blows up when they're stressed would blow up when they're stressed.
I think it's easy for women to fall into these relationships. Some because that's what they've experienced from men in their life and some because they're used to good men in their lives and believe their abusers excuses because they've only experienced good intentions and expect it.

[Pinkplasticbathcup]

@BluebellBlueballs

In terms of a narcissistic, EA partner I'd say once you've seen the light and learned about it it's possible to be narc-aware and getbout of such relationships before they go too far

I say this with personal experience

Sadly many don't learn to set boundaries and repeat the dynamic

So impossible, no

This, basically.

Once you’ve been through it and come out the other side and crucially done the work…. You are very hard to abuse.

But you have to do the work. You have to figure out what abuse is and how you got trapped into it. That’s not to say abuse is ever the victims fault, it’s not. But it’s everyone’s job to keep themselves safe.

I’ve got too many mates who just keep falling for the same guys over and over….

[KILM]

I don't think anyone is completely immune, to preface. But I also think this is an important discussion to have.
Personally - I think we do ourselves and others a massive disservice on this topic by the HUGE premise in society that your goal is to meet 'the one' and live happily ever after. I'm not saying people who favour casual relationships or non monogamy are immune to abuse in the slightest, but I think the pressure and expectation from society but perhaps more keenly from loved ones, can really detract an individuals attention away from the core goal of being happy and treated well - because you are told 'that's just men' or 'you'll be lonely when you're old' and you just see all the little teeny tiny red flags as 'normal male behaviour' and 'not enough to break up with them for'

[TempNCforthis]

The best thing you can do is put yourself in a position where you don't need to be rescued. So you have enough money to live on, your home is secure, you have friends to talk to. The other thing I think is not to sleep with someone too quickly because feelings get involved and exaggerated in the early days if you do. I am as guilty as anyone of that! However I do think if I was starting a relationship now I would not sleep with them immediately.

[MarieRoseMarie]

@PostItNotations

A sense that God provides, not human beings.

An ability to entertain and amuse oneself - not afraid of being alone.

An open mind to the future - being willing to explore new and unexpected avenues. It’s extraordinary the things that can happen that you didn’t imagine.

You have empathy, but not to an extreme degree.

You are ruled more by your mind rather then the heart - an analytical logical mindset. You think in terms of pros and cons and gains and losses…

…You prioritise your psychological well-being and health - you are willing to sacrifice other things for this.

You always keep an exit strategy, there are other resources open to you other than a career and money. State safety nets are there for a reason, use them.

You have a firm faith in your own perception and ability to draw conclusions - you consciously give yourself plenty of time and space to do this.

You do not mind roughing it a bit if you necessarily - you understand that human beings are at their core very adaptable and extremely resilient.

Sex, wealth, and status do not wield undue power over you - you understand there are more important and satisfying things. You make strong efforts to find out what those things are and taste them for yourself.

You understand that very little is foolproof and it’s possible for each person to “meet their master” sooner or later. You know that eventuality won’t break your spirit and you will find a way to rise above it.

This is true wisdom.

[MarieRoseMarie]

The critical part of it is that sex, wealth and status do not wield undue power over you. Lots of people want the fairytale. Think about romance scams. Most of the people scammed are trying to create a fairytale with a perfect guy/girl.

People who spend their lives trying to find someone to take care of them will ALWAYS be vulnerable. There is no way around this. As long as women will not seek out financial equality, we will always be abusable.

[MadameSzyszkoBohusz]

@Sushi4Dins

Just that really. Do you think there are women who just have zero tolerance for crappy behaviour, end things at the very first red flag and just will never find themselves in abusive relationships?

If so, what characteristics do you think these women have that make them able to do this?

Haven't RTFT yet - but you've just described me. I've had two relationships in which they've shown signs of becoming abusive - one physically, one emotionally - and I dumped them both immediately and refused to have anything more to do with them. All my other relationships have been with thoroughly decent chaps who treated me with love and respect. I've been with the same (lovely) guy for 19 years now.

I was raised by a single mum who was and is the strongest woman I know. She's never married or even lived with a man because she's got no patience for them! She raised me to have high self-esteem, and gave me a role model of independent womanhood which meant I knew I didn't ever "need" a man.

In addition, I always knew I could always go home to her, so I would never be "trapped" in a relationship.

So I can't say I'm impossible to abuse, but I do know that if my DH had a sudden personality transformation and became abusive, I'd walk straight out with the DC and go to her. Once she'd got over wanting to kill him for me, she'd be straight on the phone finding me a shit-hot divorce lawyer.

TLDR: to be "impossible" to abuse, you need two things - high self-esteem, so you won't tolerate it; and a support network to give you a place to go when you leave.

[Isheabastard]

I think ones own childhood may be a factor.

If you were always treated with love and respect as a child and your parents modelled equal behaviour, then I think the chances are that you have better boundaries.

I am in private therapy and my therapist thinks there is a connection between by childhood with a single mother with narcissistic traits to my own marriage to a controlling stbxh.

However there’s a lot more talk about equality, respect, mental health, red flags, emotional abuse and boundaries than there was 30 years ago.

[StarDolphins]

Me!

I have high self worth (without arrogance) & I know how I should be treated. I am easy going & low maintenance but won’t put up with anything less than I deserve.

[TokyoStories]

@OriginalUsername2

I have become this person but it took a lot of experience, reading and understanding.

When I was in an abusive relationship all my friends’s partners were crappy too, plus I had always been treated like crap by my own family. It was nothing new, just how people were.

Once I told my mum that my partner had got angry with our baby for waking up and practically slammed him into the cot, shouting at him to “go to fucking sleep”. She said “yeah, men get like that.”

I was literally told on a forum in capital letters. YOU ARE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. GET OUT. But this lady was American. I just thought Americans must take this stuff more seriously over there. If I had said to anyone I knew that I was in an abusive relationship at the time they would have rolled their eyes. Emotional abuse wasn’t a thing any of us recognised. I had no bruises.

It still took me years to leave. The relationship was 3 - 6 weeks of things being great, then a really, really shitty few weeks where I would feel absolutely gutted and miss the nice version of him. I would be abused emotionally and be so upset I would ask him for a cuddle, needing comfort from the “good version” of him. He would give me a stiff hold with a cold demeanour.

Soom enough the “good version” of my partner would be back and I would be so relieved and happy. I would try to be the best girlfriend possible to prevent the bad times.

It took years to figure out what was happening, lots and lots of reading about psychology, relationships, types of abuse.

And even then - how do you break up with someone who’s family have been your family for years. How do you make a man leave his home and his children when he’s being the “good version”?

It was messy and heartbreaking and I lost a family. And that’s just the first few months. Co-parenting with a man like this is a whole second abusive relationship.

This is similar to my experience. Grew up witnessing abuse between my parents and aunts whose husbands weren’t very nice but it was always ‘well you know what men are like’. Very much the attitude that it goes with the territory, women being expected to put up with men’s shit. Not sure what the point of it was though? To have children?

I had terrible self esteem, mental health problems and no family support so was perfect for an abuser.

The relationship was 3 - 6 weeks of things being great, then a really, really shitty few weeks where I would feel absolutely gutted and miss the nice version of him. I would be abused emotionally and be so upset I would ask him for a cuddle, needing comfort from the “good version” of him.

This really resonates with my experience. The man being abusive and aggressive, me falling to pieces and feeling like the only thing that would make me feel better was their love and kindness (because I was so isolated I had nowhere else to turn for it). It was a terrible vicious cycle. It meant they could abuse me indefinitely because they were the only ones who could console me.

I remember ringing Samaritans one night when he was at work. I was 19 and at a low point, I didn’t know how to cope. I explained to the woman who answered what was going on and in hushed tones she said, ‘I’m not supposed to say this but you need to get out. He is abusing you. You need to get out now.’ But I didn’t of course 🙄

The cycle continued for two more relationships and then it dawned on me, WTF am I doing with these men who add nothing to my life but take so much away. I did the freedom programme and read up on this board.

I’ve been single for a good while now. Had one brief thing with someone who seemed fine but there was a couple small things that made me think it wasn’t right so I ended it.

Given my history I can’t say I’ll never be in an abusive relationship again but my eyes are wide open now. I know exactly where I went wrong in the past and the flags I ignored. I don’t want children and have a low sex drive so there isn’t a huge amount a relationship would add to my life. At the moment I have no desire to meet anybody. I’m focussed on my career which will hopefully enable me to live the life that I want without being reliant on a man.

[Natty13]

Like others said - self esteem and self respect. I was raised to be a strong woman, my mother is a people pleaser and was badly abused by her first husband so my parents wanted me and me siblings to never go through that. Our parents really adore us and made sure we knew it, so whenever a man treated me in any way I didn't like I always had the voice of "what would my parents think if they could see this?"

I am in good terms with all my most serious exes. I know what a good man looks like because I've been with and lived with them. If I found myself single/looking again I'd know what men to go for and what to avoid. If I got it wrong I'd have zero problem walking away. For example shouting is a line in the sand for me as is insults. The minute a man shouts at me or says something insulting I'm out. Sometimes I wonder if I should have given some of the ones i dated more of a chance however I read posts on here and just think - nah I was right to walk away at the first red flag!

I think you could sum it up as:

1. Self esteem and knowing your worth
2. The ability to recognise early signs of abusive behaviour and crucially
3. The strength to walk away before it escalates. If you don't do this it affects 1 and 2 by chipping away at your self esteem and eroding your sense of what is right and what is wrong.

[SideshowAuntSallly]

@Zola1

I feel like this is a really unpleasant, victim blaming thread. I'm sure it wasn't intended that way, but through my professional lens I'm reading it thinking how painful it would be for some of the ladies I support to read all these lists of things they should have done better.
Rather than aspiring to some mysterious list of the right qualities, maybe we should wonder about how we stop men being abusive

This 100% I feel there is also an air of smugness coming from those who say they'd never let someone abuse them. It's all too easy to say they'd leave when they've never been in that situation. When you've had your confidence knocked out of you, your self worth slowly eroded over the years. When you've been told you won't survive without them you start to believe it. I was a shell of who I was by the end of our marriage.

I'm an intelligent,professional from a loving close knit family whose parents never really argue.

[houseofcardss]

@Isheabastard I think it's true what you have said that it stems down to peoples childhood. Those that have grew up in emotionally healthy families often have stronger boundaries and can see red flags from a mile. When you grow up in a family that isn't emotionally healthy then you think you are giving them another chance because "they're were a nice person" and that you're forgiving them for the sake of your children but in reality you become a doormat and peoples pleaser. Add financially dependency to the mix because you did 100% of the child rearing then the relationship becomes a recipe to a disaster. Equally your children start to think that's how relationships work and this often spreads to other elements too whether in school, work or friendships.

[Blippie]

Agree @Zola1 and @SideshowAuntSallly

[5128gap]

I don't believe any woman can say she will never be abused, no.
Those who say this are speaking from their current position of strength and resources. None of us know if in the future we may become vulnerable due to mental or physical health, poverty or the effects of age.
Also leaving at the first red flag is all well and good in a new relationship, but doesn't take into account the boiling frog nature of creeping later onset, abuse.

[Watchkeys]

It's all too easy to say they'd leave when they've never been in that situation. When you've had your confidence knocked out of you, your self worth slowly eroded over the years

It's even easier to say when you have been in that situation, and you have learnt to dismiss people from your life at the very start of them eroding your confidence, rather than allowing anything to slowly happen to you.

[Oblomov23]

Rather than reading his as a victim blaming thread which it has now been accused of being, why not view it differently. Take strength from all the posters who have said good things.

Eg, StarDolphins:

"I have high self worth (without arrogance) & I know how I should be treated. I am easy going & low maintenance but won’t put up with anything less than I deserve."

Isn't that what you would want, for your dd? To instill these qualities in all the mn dd's. I assume so.

Natty: "self esteem and self respect. I was raised to be a strong woman,"

Is what you want young women to be.

House of cards: "d I think it's true what you have said that it stems down to peoples childhood. Those that have grew up in emotionally healthy families often have stronger boundaries and can see red flags from a mile."

This is what most mn mums who do care about their dd's self worth, self esteem and strength, are instilling in their daughters.

[MarieRoseMarie]

@SideshowAuntSallly

This 100% I feel there is also an air of smugness coming from those who say they'd never let someone abuse them. It's all too easy to say they'd leave when they've never been in that situation. When you've had your confidence knocked out of you, your self worth slowly eroded over the years. When you've been told you won't survive without them you start to believe it. I was a shell of who I was by the end of our marriage.

I'm an intelligent,professional from a loving close knit family whose parents never really argue.

Do you believe that women should do The Freedom Programme? Do you believe it can work? If so, why?

[Bananalanacake]

Attila has a good point when she asks 'what did you learn about relationships growing up'?. I come from a family where all the men are gentle, kind and respect their partners, my mum told me to never tolerate a volatile man. I have never seen either of my parents drunk, my DH is TT, I can't be doing with drunken idiots. I also refused to live with a BF, I like my own space too much. I had a 5 year rule, where I would give a timeline of being together for at least 5 years before even discussing living together. I'm often amazed at threads on here where people have rushed to live together and they haven't known each other that long. So I think my answer is I will not stand for any type of crappy behaviour but I realise it can happen to anyone.

[Blippie]

Do you believe that women should do The Freedom Programme? Do you believe it can work? If so, why?

The Freedom Programme can help you recognise the red flags for abuse. Many people already know the red flags but aren't willing or able to leave for other reasons.

There's nothing wrong with trying to be more perceptive to certain behaviours. What can rub the wrong way is the idea that you (general sense) would never be abused because of XYZ. Nobody would want anyone else to be but it sort of makes it seem like it's some downfall in the victim that makes them vulnerable and ignores the role of circumstances e.g. isolation and estrangement or poverty.

Also, people are simply answering the OP's question but it's not a very constructive thread to read as someone who has experienced a violent or emotionally etc abusive relationship. Hearing others say they have loads of family, or are financially independent is never going to be a reality for some people. Not great to feel reminded of it.

[Lockedinforwinter]

This thread is quite an uncomfortable read. If you have relationships with other humans, you can be abused. There are things that people can do to make it less likely, strong boundaries etc, but no one is immune.

[alwaysawaster]

I can't speak for other women, just myself.

In my case, I had a controlling emotionally distant father who made all the decisions. And a submissive, subservient, entirely dependant mother. For most children, the example we grow up with is what feels familiar. So with men it was often the selfish ones, emotionally stunted ones, the stonewallers that clicked on some subconcious level with them.
My own response was to do better, try harder, work work work at being more ideal for them. My own preferences and feelings didn't even come into it.
Luckily most of my boyfriends were selfish assholes who got bored and dumped me within a couple of years. Even the one who adored me, who put me on a pedestal, I dumped him because it just felt too weird for me where the dynamic of adoration was flipped.

The last, bar one, was an abusive one. And getting out of that relationship I learned an awful lot about me, about my insecurity, the feeling that was drummed into me from childhood that I need a man - any man - in my life had to be unpicked.

While I learned to spot red flags, and got good at being assertive about my boundaries and feelings, I can't claim I'm immune to be taken in again. I look at actions now- I've recently had a situation where someone in my family behaved appallingly towards me. My sibling is trying to find reasons, excuses for the behaviour to explain it but me, I'm not like that any more. I don't care - like, I genuinely do not give a fuck what caused the behaviour. All I care about is that the behaviour happened and the result of it. I'm done with that person. Minimal contact from here on in. And I'm quite proud of me because before I always justified other people's bad behaviour, or believed their justification.

I'm with a good man now with DH, but a large chunk of landing a good 'un was luck. But - if he ever hit me, if he ever abused me in any way shape or form, no matter what finances or history or reasons, if I had to leave with just the clothes on my back, I'd be gone. And I mean that. I love him utterly and love our life, but I also know who I am without him, which is most important of all. I'm 47 if I was single tomorrow, I don't think I'd even be arsed to download a dating app. I'm ok with being alone. I can support myself and my family alone if it came to it. Knowing you are with your partner solely because you happily choose to be there is very empowering.

[GarlicGrace]

The Freedom Programme's absolutely worth doing. I also read and re-read Lundy Bancroft, Gavin de Becker, immersed myself in these threads and Stately Homes, pored over relevant websites, undertook serious therapy ... and kept on learning.

I needed to learn:
• how abusive dynamics function
• 'the Script'
• to identify & name abusive behaviours, including minor ones
• to heed red flags
• how to re-set my expectations of myself and of others
• what healthy relationships are like, how they function
• to multiply and strengthen my boundaries
• to accomplish all this without losing my caring, open qualities or humour
• to be proud of these accomplishments

Some of us were trained in childhood to be able, tolerant, pliable, interesting targets for abuse. With that amount of internalised compliance, I of course needed long, intense and often difficult re-programming. But more 'normal' people are also susceptible to abuse: the PP who said that being a loving partner automatically renders you vulnerable was spot on.

None of this is victim-blaming. It's not my fault I was raised by a psychopath, it's not your fault someone took advantage of your desire to make them happy.

And nobody is immune: nobody. Some women are more vulnerable to abuse than others; there are all sorts of possible reasons for that, including the simple fact of being pregnant or having a baby. As long as there are people who strive for power over others, there will be victims. Blame the control freaks.

[MarieRoseMarie]

@Blippie this thread is uncomfortable because many abuse victims have been so beaten down by the abuser that they cannot distinguish responsibility from blame, and they believe that if they acknowledge that any part of their life and relationship choices are under their control, then they are taking blame away from the abuser. It is now their fault.

Of course, this means that they have no incentive to actually protect themselves because they believe they cannot protect themselves. That is not true, the freedom program and other programs like it work because they enable women to better protect themselves.

Some women on this thread keep insisting that this is uncomfortable and sad to hear but the truth is uncomfortable to hear. We expect men to hear the difficult truths about their gender, and we should expect women to hear difficult truths about our own.