Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

[greengriff]

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

It's interesting that she wasn't concerned about your safety when you didn't follow her down the slope. It was all about how worried and scared she was for herself. What if you'd had an accident? What if you were lying hurt? She just got annoyed at you for "abandoning" her, then took herself back to the hotel for a sauna.

I agree with this.

You are being emotionally abused and she has you bent out of shape trying to twist yourself into whatever she wants you to be on any given day.

I can guarantee you that she has zero fundamental respect for you.

Yes she had a dominant father, lots of people have had, that doesn't mean they get to abuse their partner.

Have you children?
You mention them in terms of her wanting to travel after they have grown?

If you don't have children, good.
Don't have them with her because your life will be untold misery as you are futher required to bend yourself out of shape.

If you do have children, god help them.
You need to protect them from her anger and u predictability.

You cannot fix this woman.
She is NOT a project.

She has to acknowledge that she has a problem herself and then seek out help HERSELF.

But you continually allowing yourself to be emotionally abused and for her to gaslight you is ensuring this relationship is going NOWHERE.

Do NOT have children with her if you haven't already.

If she said that (and actually meant it) it would mean to me that I'm not insane after all, because if my take is not correct then I must have a severe defect in how I see the world!

As it stood when I started this thread I simply could not compute it: offering a struggling person help, being told to f off, then being left, and - because I didn't go scampering after her to make her feel safe, being told that the whole thing was my fault, just made no sense at all to me.

Now I have a better insight. But it still hurts a lot that the person that matters - i.e. my wife - absolutely blames me for it.

because if my take is not correct then I must have a severe defect in how I see the world!

The thing is, if one of you needs to be right, and the other is "insane" and has a severe defect, and it's either you, or it's her, and neither is brilliant news seeing as you're married.

I want to know what you actually said/did at the start of the incident when you offered to help, as you put it.

My DP sometimes really annoys me when he says he's trying to "help" as he's actually being incredibly patronising by suggesting obvious stuff I've already tried, or because the "help" is basically telling me to stop being upset or worried about whatever I'm upset or worried about.

To me, both things are the opposite of helpful.

If I was scared on an icy ski slope, he did that then skied off and didn't check I was OK I'd be very upset too.

And yes if he then never recognised my upset I'd probably question the relationship.

Basically if she was scared and crying, you told her to pull herself together, she could do it, she got more upset and you skied off and didn't check she was ok then I think YWBU.

Speculation but as you haven't explained your offer of "help" that could explain what happened

@AdamRyan

He didn't ski off. She snapped at him then she skied off.

I can't recall the exact words but it would have been something along the lines of 'Are you alright? Do you want to stop for a moment?'

Again it's worth reiterating that it was her that skied off, not me. I just chose not to follow.

Right and wrong absolutely matters. Of course either one or both of us might have been wrong. If I'm wrong then that's fine, but I want - need - to understand why. I think most people accused of something they absolutely believed they were not responsible for would want to resolve the matter.

Have either of you actually climbed down from your opposing positions to say anything that would resemble
'I know you wouldn't feel this way if there wasn't a good reason, I respect you. I think there is two sides to this and I'm willing to consider how I could have done things differently if you would be willing to do the same, can we talk about this so we can listen to each other properly and both keep an open mind while we talk. You are too important to me to not want to resolve this so we are content the outcome is fair'

Because from everything you've said no one has been willing to give an inch and everyone is digging their heels in.
No constructive understanding or change ever came out of an 'all or nothing capitulation and surrender' or 'be victorious' approach.

Someone has to be willing to begin a conversation where positions can be set to one side while things are talked about and everyone is genuinely listening and equally heard.

Assuming she isn't being deliberately manipulative and is coming from a place of genuine distress a proper open dialogue where judgement and harsh reaction are set aside while things are discussed should be helpful.

I ski and frequently get scared on a blue slope if its steep/icy. What you are describing makes no sense to me.

You said She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing

You can't ski off in a different direction unless you are at a cross road/ski lift. In which case you did leave her, she was expecting you to follow in the direction you were already going/had planned to go.

But if you were at a cross roads/lift then why did she need help? I thought she'd got stuck mid slope on a steep bit.

I'm really confused. And that makes me think you are leaving bits out that maybe don't paint you in the best light.

But you appear to what one person to be absolutely right and one person to be absolutely wrong. But there are so many multiple things that happen in every interaction it's hard to pinpoint someone absolutely right or wrong, more often than not both people have done something a little bit right and a little bit wrong

Even thinking of it in terms of right or wrong is unhelpful. Because in one situation something might be 'right' but that doesn't mean it's automatically right in all scenarios

Your wife was scared and feeling vulnerable she lashed out at you and then felt upset that you did not stay with her when she was feeling vulnerable and needed support

Meanwhile you were taking her at her word and probably didn't want to be lashed out at again

Neither of you are entirely wrong neither of you are entirely right. You appear to be communicating badly between you, and I think it must be hard for you when your wife is giving you mixed signals and lashing out at you.

However you will solve nothing if you are just trying to prove you are right. If you feel like you suddenly will find the one thing where you can turn around and go 'aha I can prove I was right' you might feel vindicated but you won't fix your marriage.

Instead of keep analysing this one scenario you need to step back and ask yourself a few questions

Do you want to remain married
Does your wife want to remain married

What help do you need for that to happen
What help does she need for that to happen

What behaviours of your wife's do you need to understand more fully to communicate better with her
What behaviours of your does your wife need to understand to communicate better with you

Where yours needs (not to be lashed out at verbally) and your wife's needs (and inability to communicate effectively when feeling incredibly vulnerable) clash, what would help you both deal with these situations

Going to a counsellor or someone who can help you work through these or better questions will help far more beneficial in the long run than trying to get to the bottom of who was right or wrong

It's not who was right, it's how do we both communicate and behave in a more mutually beneficial way if the same scenario were to arise on the future

Right and wrong gets you where you are. You need to move past this one way or another and clinging to working out who is "right" and who is "insane" is not it, there is no winner with that mindset. You're either insane, or your wife is. Either of those might be true, but it's not really a road you want to pursue is it?

You seem to be in a position where one of you needs to be proved wrong, so the travelling the world plans can resume and for the marriage to continue.

That is not reasonable considering the issue is a row on a ski slope, I'd say you need to take a few long steps back and get some perspective.

I mean, at best you had a bit of a childish tantrum at her skiing away from you and deliberately headed off in a different direction, knowing she wouldnt know where you were or be able to easily find you. I can't see that you've apologised for that bit which was a decision you made

Skiing might be less dangerous than a lot of things but it carries different and unexpected risks. You need extra travel insurance for it don't you. And think of poor
Michael Schumacher.

I'd kind of think, if you're willing to vanish on a whim just over a few cross words on an icy slope, where will you be if the shit really hits the fan.
Surely you could have at least communicated the intention that you were going to leave her to it rather than follow and she'd have had the chance to ask about money, hotel directions or whatever and to ask you not to leave if she needed you to be there, and she would have known you were ok and not injured.
Regardless of her behaviour I would see it as ungentlemanly to just vanish.

I've already explained this but will again: the piste was as wide as a football field, had other pistes criss-crossing it and was crowded. It's perfectly easy to ski off in a different direction.

There would be no point me making something up (this is anonymous after all, so no identifiable person looks 'bad or 'good') as the advice I got based on it would not be pertinent.

I think she sees it the same way as this. But again how does one situation extrapolate into a completely different one? It's like a kid saying 'dad, you left me once with Aunty Annie to look after me and I didn't like her, so you'd obviously leave me with a homicidal maniac'. It just makes no sense to me.

Also if anyone ha any thoughts then I'd like to understand why I react so instantly and negatively to rudeness.

I don't think it's to do with how close I am to the person - if I sincerely offered a struggling stranger some help and they told me to f off I'd be fuming, and I would feel the same if it was my own mother.

I don't think it's the act of rejection per se - a polite 'no thank you' would not bother me in the least.

Plenty of other people would just brush a rude remark off, but it deeply offends me.

Actions are an insight into future responses/attitudes.
Maybe before she would have said he'd never drop me and bugger off without me leaving me not knowing where he is or when I'll see him again.

She now knows that in some circumstances, you would actually.

Now she has doubts over the scope of those circumstances.

It's it fair when she skiied away from you, not really no. But since when were responses shaped out of trauma ever 'fair' for anyone (her or you)

Her background means conditional support is a sensitive issue.

Had you said, "I can't deal with you being like this, I need space I'm going back to the hotel and I'll see you at dinner" that would have been entirely different probably.

Should you have to do this? maybe not.
Would it have helped? probably yes.
Would it have mattered to someone else? maybe not.
Could you have done this (despite your own anger) at the time if you'd had that thought in mind from previous conversations of what would help if we meet this situation again? maybe you could have.

And someone else would laugh at how ridiculous it was, shrug and say 'suit yourself'.

So both of you have responses which escalate a situation.

Now you need to talk about where that comes from, and whether you can code alternative responses that buy you both time to not act out of knee-jerk emotions, so you can hit the pause button instead of the nuclear button, and react later when calm talk is possible.

Nothing wrong with taking a deep breath and saying this is a bad one, if I react now the shit will hit the fan, so let's take some space and come back in half an hour. Or words to that effect.
The act of allowing a retreat with a safe place to talk later is what respectful relationships do to avoid this kind of thing.

Or you can cling to your respective positions and rightness and watch your relationship erode away.

But that’s exactly what it is. She expressed her fear with anger. She didn’t learn as a child or young adult how to calm down once angry or how to process fear. She probably knows she is being irrational and even “in the wrong” but can’t extricate herself from her fear and anger. So, she is behaving like a teenager who thinks that doing the dishes is exactly equivalent to slavery.

She has also been brought up to think that the man is in charge so even though she mostly fights against that - as witness the fact that she got herself back to the hotel capably - when she is in a state of fear and anger she reverts to her upbringing.

It’s not a question of right or wrong, but kindness and practicality. I agree with PP who said in this situation the person who isn’t panicking stays in sight as you would for a stroppy teenager, because you are responsible for each other.

If she is saying that this is the end of the marriage, you have nothing to lose by suggesting therapy. If she has a chance to process, you may find that her actual feelings about the situation are more nuanced than you think.

Her disproportionate response shows she was triggered to feel a deeper underlying fear from childhood... What she wants is knowing you'll be there unconditionally, whether physically or emotionally.

Yet, it's v shitty to expect someone to slavishly follow you around after you've shouted angrily at them and turned away from them. No way would anyone on MN suggest a woman do that for a man. Not only is this expectation demeaning, it's also confusing for you.

Maybe you can both work on effective communication with the help of a counsellor. Eg. "I need some space now", implying you both regroup later, is good.

PPs talking about kindness and practicality but imagine genders reversed – man shouting angrily and rudely in response to kind offer, turning away, expecting wife to hang around still like a panting dog, would be considered abusive.

The suggestion to let her attack you verbally, then follow her around and stay in sight "as you would for a teenager" is not helpful at all. It reinforces abusive shitty expectations. Better to both work on effective communication.

I'd say lack of empathy and a little bit of entitlement
You are jumping straight to "how,dare they speak to me like that?" And "its rude to reject my help". And are reacting accordingly

Rather than thinking "I wonder why they reacted like that?" And trying to understand the reasoning behind it.

Maybe your wife perceived you as criticising rather than helping. Maybe she responded irrationally because she was scared.

You had no chance to find any of that out because you couldn't put yourself in her position in the moment you felt that she was rude.

And now you are entrenched in black/white, reasonable/unreasonable thinking so you still can't understand her perspective.

Unless you genuinely do think she's irrational and unreasonable, in which case why are you married to her?

I've found the bits where you can cross piste or ski off are generally not the steep/ice prone bits, as that would be incredibly dangerous.

Fact remains though that she was down hill of you and you chose to do in a different direction. She wouldn't be able to follow as she'd have to get to the bottom, get a lift back up and then figure out which way you went which is impossible if you skied off.

And she couldn't contact you so had no way of finding you.

skiing off was petty of you (but understandable) and it would probably move things forward productively if you apologised.

Err, is this an alternate universe??? If my husband shouted abuse at me, let alone after I had offered him a nice favour, you bet I'd be pissed off! And if he then turns around and blames me for his behaviour and for my being pissed off, I'd be even more bloody miffed.

I wouldn't let any man gaslight me and use me as his permanent emotional punching bag slash doormat. Even if he was scared and made a mistake, he can still learn how to treat others with normal decency in future.

Your last sentence is also a strange question and black and white thinking. Marriage conflict and shitty behaviour happens, the answer is not to say "unconditionally suck it up or why are you married", but to work on it honestly