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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
CDiamond · 22/02/2023 01:39

Summerfun54321 · 22/02/2023 01:32

I ideally would like a diagram of where you both were on the ski slope, your trajectories and a rough scale to determine who threw the biggest tantrum on the ski slope that day.

hahaha.... lol

TrishM80 · 22/02/2023 02:01

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 01:20

Added to that, his wife was probably waiting for the OP at the bottom of the run for ages and he never showed up leaving her worried about what might have happened to him. Especially as conditions were on the more dangerous side.
She then makes numerous calls to check that he’s ok/what’s happened and he doesn’t pick up.
Awful behaviour by the OP.

Yeah, the poor little frightened dear was so worried about him that she ended up getting back to the hotel before him and even managed to have herself a sauna!

She's clearly an emotional bully with deep seated psychological issues, you don't have to blindly defend her just because she has a vagina.

TrishM80 · 22/02/2023 02:07

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 01:08

The OP fucked off in an unfamiliar place, without telling his wife he fucked off and then didn’t answer her calls.

Think that’s why the wife felt abandoned.

If this is the first time the OP had left his wife without giving any indication that she would be left to sort her own way back, she would have had no reason to have paid attention to which bus to catch, or where the hotel was even located. Especially if the OP was the one to have made the booking.

The OP’s wife sounds fiery. There are positives and negatives that come with having such a disposition.

Rather than forcing his wife down the path of therapy, a suggestion which she will perceive as a criticism of her character, the OP could simply accept this is how his wife operates and just keep it at the back of his mind for future incidents.

The wife fucked off first.

After abusing the OP for offering to help her.

And then blamed the OP for not following her! 😂

She's clearly not a well women.

mathanxiety · 22/02/2023 02:21

greengriff · 21/02/2023 15:41

Yes, I feel that is important. But my main goal is to understand her, and myself. You're right about the 'trenches' but what is gain, for example, by me saying something like 'ok, you're right it was my fault' when I don't mean it or believe it?

Well what do you want to achieve here?

Do you want her to apologise?

You're determined to stick firmly to the facts. But they're your facts. And facts is not what this is about.

To her, it looks as if you want her to abandon her trench and then you can shoot her down.

Where will that get you?

Don't settle for the cheap shot here, the short term satisfaction of your set of facts prevailing, if you want the relationship to grow.

15feb · 22/02/2023 02:37

If you can find a way to bring it up to your wife, DBT skills would be really useful – eg interpersonal effectiveness includes asking for your emotional needs to be met in an effective manner – rather than strops, passive aggression, exaggeration (twisting the facts so you lose credibility), etc. There are handy acronyms and all that for these skills.

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 02:37

I mean it sounded like the wife just continued to ski downhill rather than engage in a fight in the middle of the run.
Not really fucking off.

MsCactus · 22/02/2023 02:38

I know everyone is saying the OP's wife is wrong but I'd be bloody furious if my husband left me on a ski slope in bad conditions without money etc. How terrifying

I'd also hate to be patronised/not thought of as independent just because I'm a woman ... But the ski slope situ isn't about independence, it's about looking out for someone in potential danger, you should do that for anyone you care about

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 02:42

MsCactus · 22/02/2023 02:38

I know everyone is saying the OP's wife is wrong but I'd be bloody furious if my husband left me on a ski slope in bad conditions without money etc. How terrifying

I'd also hate to be patronised/not thought of as independent just because I'm a woman ... But the ski slope situ isn't about independence, it's about looking out for someone in potential danger, you should do that for anyone you care about

But she left him. She skied off and left him behind. Plus she had a bank card so she wasn't without money.

15feb · 22/02/2023 02:43

Btw your anecdote really resonated with me. I have BPD/EUPD (DBT has been really helpful) and your wife's behaviour sounds similar to be honest.

I think arguments on holiday are pretty common, though of course not with this outcome. The exact same thing happened abroad (first world country in Europe) with my then bf, now husband! I stormed off, so he stormed off too and later I claimed I was afraid and he abandoned me and all sorts of victim rubbish that I half-believed and half knew I was weaponising.

I would also often provoke him (eg get angry and start an argument) but then weaponise his reaction (eg if he said something angry back, I'd act like a victim about it).

Finally, I also had an authoritative father, and chafe at any reminders of that attitude, but luckily my husband is a very very gentle personality. I am quite a dominant personality myself. I don't know how 2 domineering parties would function, and you have my sympathy and support!

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 02:49

I think your wife has always seen you as a "safe" person. Someone who would always be by her side. Someone she could be an absolute asshole to and know you wouldn't leave her. So on that particular day, she was an asshole to you, because she's always gotten away with that before. But this time you didn't remain by her side, and that is what scared her. Now she's gaslighting you. Trying to put you back in your box by making you think it was your fault. That you did wrong. It comes from a place of fear. She now fears you will leave her, and she's angry at you for making her feel that way. It really is typical abusive behaviour.

15feb · 22/02/2023 02:53

MsCactus · 22/02/2023 02:38

I know everyone is saying the OP's wife is wrong but I'd be bloody furious if my husband left me on a ski slope in bad conditions without money etc. How terrifying

I'd also hate to be patronised/not thought of as independent just because I'm a woman ... But the ski slope situ isn't about independence, it's about looking out for someone in potential danger, you should do that for anyone you care about

Turn the situation around. OP's wife offers to help. OP shouts abuse at his wife and skis off.

His wife would certainly be entitled to be angry, plus assume her presence is not needed and leave! She's certainly not going to wait around after he's been verbally abusive and gone off.

Expecting someone to crawl back to you when you've told them to f off seems like a silly test/mind game to play, and doesn't seem like a good way to treat another human being

coldIce · 22/02/2023 02:54

For what it's worth I would have reacted like your wife.
If I find myself struggling with something I feel I should be capable of, especially if everyone else is coping fine and I feel I might be holding them up or I can't keep the pace, I'd be stressed and tetchy.
I've skied down a run that I thought would be fine and wasn't, and it was an awful experience.
In that situation if someone offered "help" I'd snap, because how are you going to help, you can't ski for me, Im not going to find it easier if I say lean sideways to hold onto someone. I just need to slow and steady do it myself. Also if all the slopes are icy today there's no point us rushing down, might as well do this one slowly and I'll learn in the process.
What I would want from a partner is for them maybe to ask if im ok but mostly just be there in a calm and reassuring way. So if I fall and hurt myself I know they will see and get help.
You not staying with me at this point would make me think what's the point of you. We're meant to be a team but you're not there on the very rare occasion I really need you to be. Now I'm having to stress about if you're ok and do I have money and can I get home and is my relationship over and what happens to the rest of the holiday on top of how do I get down this fucking mountain and am I going to die here. If I was left in that headspace with no contact from my partner for hours I can't imagine getting on well afterwards. If I can't trust you to be there on the rare occasion I need, what use is our relationship. No I'm not her but maybe I'm a similar character. I don't want to be parented, patronised like a child, I want to be accompanied and supported if and when needed like an adult partner.

15feb · 22/02/2023 02:58

BadNomad · 22/02/2023 02:49

I think your wife has always seen you as a "safe" person. Someone who would always be by her side. Someone she could be an absolute asshole to and know you wouldn't leave her. So on that particular day, she was an asshole to you, because she's always gotten away with that before. But this time you didn't remain by her side, and that is what scared her. Now she's gaslighting you. Trying to put you back in your box by making you think it was your fault. That you did wrong. It comes from a place of fear. She now fears you will leave her, and she's angry at you for making her feel that way. It really is typical abusive behaviour.

Well said, I agree.

Not sure what the ski slope conditions are like but for clarity, when I said half believed I was afraid above – in my case it wasn't because there was any basis in reality (first world country in Europe, great and clean and safe subway system, I've travelled solo to this city before as well).

I was kind of referring to the emotional fear of him not coming back after I had pushed him away, of feeling alone on holiday (especially with other couples and groups in those tourist spots), etc... But deep down I was afraid to say it so I felt I had to twist and exaggerate it into fears for my physical safety.

15feb · 22/02/2023 03:08

And thinking back, maybe some physical fear as well as I didn't speak the language, had to navigate alone, etc.. But just a bit. In my case it was fragments of truth that I magnified in order for my feelings to be believed, accepted and validated. Sorry if I'm being long winded.

Also, yes fair enough if she really felt afraid, but saying she wants you to "be the man", "be the hero", "treat her like a child" is quite random. I've felt real physical fear at other times, and would never even think/want to say that to my husband. I wonder if she feels she can only express this need where there is (whether real or an illusion of) physical danger, so the emotional vulnerability is disguised as a practical need.

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 03:28

“She's clearly an emotional bully“

“Someone she could be an absolute asshole to and know you wouldn't leave her.”

I don’t think these are fair, the OP said
”…elicited such an unexpected response”
in regards to his wife getting upset on the run. Certainly not indicative that this is a pattern of behaviour, in which case, I’m surprised the OP wasn’t able to afford his wife a little more grace, particularly as he could see she was clearly struggling.

Crewcut · 22/02/2023 06:28

I just think her constant need to be “independent” within a marriage isn’t healthy in itself. I have been happily married 26 years, so I am not a novice to emotional struggles in a marriage. A healthy relationship is interdependent (not co-dependent). She has created a persona of needing to be a constant warrior in the world and she needs to take her armor off and lay down her arms more often. It’s because she is pushing her husband away by this constant insistence on independence that she isn’t allowing their marriage relationship to grow deeper in understanding. So she is swinging between emotional extremes because she hasn’t integrated these different parts to her personality: the constantly vigilant fearless warrior and the scared and vulnerable child. Emotionally that sounds more like where teenagers can be, swinging between extremes. I think she needs therapy to allow herself to climb down and understand she needs to trust you more day to day so that she doesn’t have these wild expectations that you read her mind on the rare occasion when she lets her guard down. She is treating you more like a father/parent in that scenario than a husband. Does she feel like you have let her down in other ways?

Unlike some others on here I think it’s seems like you have all the ingredients for a strong and happy marriage, because you both want to be there and you love each other. She needs to admit that the fact she just cannot let this incident go shows it tapped into something very sensitive and painful for her but is now haunting her and causing so much angst, anger and anxiety. It’s bizarre she could claim the marriage should be over for such an incident, unless there were many other issues leading to that day. I think she needs to go into therapy and start with her feelings about that day and why she just cannot being herself to forgive you or understand she was responsible for her behavior.

What are the other reasons she thinks your marriage is at its “lowest ebb”

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 22/02/2023 06:46

I have a very domineering father who laid down the law when I was growing up but who I never felt loved by. Although I’ve never treated DH in the way your wife treated you, I do understand that conflicting feeling of desperately not wanting to feel dominated and bullied any more but also desperately wanting to feel that the man in your life loves you unconditionally and would never let anything happen to you.

My father used to worry about my behaviour insofar as it reflected on him but he didn’t fundamentally care about my physical or emotional wellbeing. So imagine I had been raped - he would care that I might get pregnant or that the neighbours might find out and he would be embarrassed more than he would worry about any psychological damage to me. So although I consider myself independent and thoroughly competent now, I also want to feel that my safety, my well-being, really matters to someone because I didn’t have that feeling growing up.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 08:55

So many thought-provoking posts since I last looked at the thread yesterday. And such contrasting takes that (I guess) reflect the personalities of the posters, although with some common themes emerging.

One thing I didn't mention in the original post is why my wife said this was the breaking point. The reason she gave was that she had always wanted - after the kids had left - to go travelling the world with me, but now doesn't feel safe to do so as I might abandon her at any moment.

Again I personally find this impossible to understand: to reiterate it was her that went off initially, and just as importantly this all occurred in a safe public place in a first world country - one much safer than the UK in fact. And skiers are generally very nice people, not predators in waiting.

How on earth does one draw the conclusion from this particular occurrence that the person would abandon you in much more potentially dangerous circumstances?

OP posts:
greengriff · 22/02/2023 08:59

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 22/02/2023 06:46

I have a very domineering father who laid down the law when I was growing up but who I never felt loved by. Although I’ve never treated DH in the way your wife treated you, I do understand that conflicting feeling of desperately not wanting to feel dominated and bullied any more but also desperately wanting to feel that the man in your life loves you unconditionally and would never let anything happen to you.

My father used to worry about my behaviour insofar as it reflected on him but he didn’t fundamentally care about my physical or emotional wellbeing. So imagine I had been raped - he would care that I might get pregnant or that the neighbours might find out and he would be embarrassed more than he would worry about any psychological damage to me. So although I consider myself independent and thoroughly competent now, I also want to feel that my safety, my well-being, really matters to someone because I didn’t have that feeling growing up.

How did you let your husband know about this conflict and how has he managed to read you successfully and learn to tread this line between being your protector and not overdoing it?

OP posts:
Fraaahnces · 22/02/2023 09:40

Unfortunately, once someone is over 30 years old, the chances of successful rehabilitation from a childhood like this are pretty slim. I suspect she has C-PTSD, which is closely associated with Type B Cluster Personality Disorder parents. She needs consistent, committed therapy. (She needs to be committed to it herself, or she will repeat patterns, hurt herself or you, or potentially go supernova and hurt everyone including your child.)

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 09:50

she had always wanted - after the kids had left - to go travelling the world with me, but now doesn't feel safe to do so as I might abandon her at any moment.

So you have concluded it's travel the world together or divorce? She's changed her mind about your life long plans to travel together because you had a row on a ski slope and she had to use her card rather than cash?

I'm not sure I buy it, there's more going on here. Much more.

It all seems a bit high drama and extreme to me for a couple that have navigated presumably several years together if you have grown up children?

As with all things there are two sides to this, but you do seem more wedded to the need to be right than the want to move forward.

Fraaahnces · 22/02/2023 09:55

Honestly, I think it’s time to stop focus song on her needs (because that has been working so very well for her for all this time) and start thinking about what YOU want. You know that a relationship actually involves the needs and desires of both parties and neither is more important than the other. When both parties are mentally healthy, instead of manipulating, they work together to find something mutually beneficial - or compromise. I feel like the only compromise is on your side.

greengriff · 22/02/2023 09:55

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 09:50

she had always wanted - after the kids had left - to go travelling the world with me, but now doesn't feel safe to do so as I might abandon her at any moment.

So you have concluded it's travel the world together or divorce? She's changed her mind about your life long plans to travel together because you had a row on a ski slope and she had to use her card rather than cash?

I'm not sure I buy it, there's more going on here. Much more.

It all seems a bit high drama and extreme to me for a couple that have navigated presumably several years together if you have grown up children?

As with all things there are two sides to this, but you do seem more wedded to the need to be right than the want to move forward.

I just want to gain a better understanding of her and myself. You're right I do not want to proceed against my morals. But maybe I'm not 'right'. That's what I'm trying to find out.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 22/02/2023 10:00

Again I personally find this impossible to understand: to reiterate it was her that went off initially, and just as importantly this all occurred in a safe public place in a first world country - one much safer than the UK in fact. And skiers are generally very nice people, not predators in waiting.

I think that contradicts what you said yesterday - you said you chose not to follow her down the slope she had set off on.

It was not about predators - most people ski in groups / pairs - things do happen, you fall over, you get lost, and it is better to be with people.

That would piss me off too.

GoldDuster · 22/02/2023 10:01

But maybe I'm not 'right'. That's what I'm trying to find out.

There is no right. There is your perspective, and her perspective which is informed by everything you have both individually experienced so far in this life, and you need to be able to meet somewhere between in order to move on.

It's not a legal matter.

If she were to call you now and say, "you know what, you're absolutely correct!" what would that change?

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