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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
9outof10cats · 21/02/2023 19:07

Your wife is not communicating with you and is giving mixed messages. One minute she is an independent woman who can do everything herself. Next, she is a child who feels abandoned. No wonder you are confused.

The problem is with her, not you.

My only suggestion is to have an open discussion with her where you both set some boundaries and communicate your own needs and expectations.

But I agree with other posters; she has unresolved issues from her childhood that she needs to address.

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 21/02/2023 19:15

DivorcedAndDelighted · 21/02/2023 18:36

Is therapy not the same as counselling? I know couples that have been to counselling and said it was useless and that they had already thought of everything that the counsellor suggested

Oh @greengriff , you sound like a really decent man, but that is a really shit attitude. That's like saying "I knew someone who went to a doctor once with a stubbed toe and said it was useless, so I won't bother going with my cough ..". People are different, their problems are different, and counsellors are different, and sometimes one party goes to couples counselling with their mind already made up, resistant to trying anything new, rather than with an open heart and the desire to improve things. You sound like you really do want to improve things, so give yourself the best shot by being open-minded.

Have a read of Does therapy fix everything?

Op - counselling is one type of therapy.
Therapy can include psychoanalysis, CBT, DBT, even EMDR...Or a combination of approaches. When it comes to counselling and psychoanalysis the therapist can specialise in one or two particular areas.
Always choose a therapist who is appropriately qualified.
There are various factors which effect the success of therapy, including the willingness of the patient to engage and the rapport they have with the therapist. Sometimes it can take a while to find the right therapist or the right therapy.

9outof10cats · 21/02/2023 19:23

greengriff · 21/02/2023 16:23

Thank you everyone for the insightful replies. I'd like to reply to more of them but I think just quoting the replies with a 'thank you' at the bottom is clogging up the thread. I am very grateful to all.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I might suggest counselling without directly asking her to do so (which I think won't go down well)?

Walking on eggshells, afraid of upsetting her, is not a healthy relationship. You should be able to speak to your wife and make suggestions, such as counselling, to improve the relationship.

You both sound unhappy with the situation. You have two choices try and resolve the issues and move forward or stay as you are and watch it all fall apart.

SandraCumin · 21/02/2023 19:29

I would be very much interested in her side of the story because I can imagine it is far different from the one you have attempted to paint here tonight.

GoldDuster · 21/02/2023 19:34

@Eleganz OP asked how he might be able to get her accept a suggestion of therapy without her head flying off her shoulders

if I told her that I think she needs counselling then her head would explode!

Or pushing her "hot buttons" which he is at pains to avoid.

I'd say it's unlikely.

Theresahippopotamusonourroofeatingcake · 21/02/2023 19:59

I think you can suggest couples counselling without your wife dismissing it if you frame it as something that you work on together rather than attributing blame. She's acknowledged that your marriage is in trouble by referring to the skiiing incident as the breaking point. Just say that you feel that has become an insurmountable barrier (she already agrees with this) and you want to find a way to move through and move on from it.

Notmyyearthisyear · 21/02/2023 21:35

9outof10cats · 21/02/2023 19:07

Your wife is not communicating with you and is giving mixed messages. One minute she is an independent woman who can do everything herself. Next, she is a child who feels abandoned. No wonder you are confused.

The problem is with her, not you.

My only suggestion is to have an open discussion with her where you both set some boundaries and communicate your own needs and expectations.

But I agree with other posters; she has unresolved issues from her childhood that she needs to address.

And setting those boundaries will likely trigger the response in the wife… it doesn’t work like that with a person who has developed unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with traumatic experiences.
If someone has a broken arm, you can’t heal it by confidently telling them that you are not prepared to tolerate their broken arm from this point onwards…

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 22:01

GoldDuster · 21/02/2023 19:34

@Eleganz OP asked how he might be able to get her accept a suggestion of therapy without her head flying off her shoulders

if I told her that I think she needs counselling then her head would explode!

Or pushing her "hot buttons" which he is at pains to avoid.

I'd say it's unlikely.

Then he will get what he has always got.

Unfortunately sometimes change is painful and requires some level of conflict to be able to achieve. The trick is to keep yourself calm and not escalate after communicating your points. If all OP's wife has to offer is verbal abuse and anger then at least he knows that she will not change for him with certainty.

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 22:05

Notmyyearthisyear · 21/02/2023 21:35

And setting those boundaries will likely trigger the response in the wife… it doesn’t work like that with a person who has developed unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with traumatic experiences.
If someone has a broken arm, you can’t heal it by confidently telling them that you are not prepared to tolerate their broken arm from this point onwards…

It really isn't about her, it is about him and what he wants out of his life. If all that setting boundaries in a calm way achieved is to provoke an unrepentant verbal tirade the I would suggest that OP considers leaving the marriage.

Having a broken arm is not the same as acting out against your partner due to unresolved trauma. Expecting anyone to put up with abusive behaviour is not okay he does not have to tolerate it regardless of any justification based on childhood issues.

macaronicheese123 · 21/02/2023 22:10

@greengriff get rid of her! there are lots of emotionally stable beautiful people out there!

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 22:14

Although if you want to use the broken arm analogy - if you see someone with a broken arm who has not had it treated properly and their response is to be highly aggressive and dismissive of you when try to help them to get it treated at the hospital should you tolerate that behaviour or set some boundaries before seeking to help further?

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 22:28

macaronicheese123 · 21/02/2023 22:10

@greengriff get rid of her! there are lots of emotionally stable beautiful people out there!

I am not sure there are lots of emotionally stable beautiful people out there.

DyingDeclaration · 21/02/2023 22:32

It might be worth exploring rejection sensitivity. I struggle with this and can strongly relate to some of the points you describe in your wife, I grew up with a very domineering father and "rebelled" against that by becoming a very strong minded successful professional and creating a tough exterior to protect myself.

My early relationship with DH and former exes had a lot of ups and downs because I wanted to be both entirely independent when I felt fine and completely protected when I felt scared- and like your wife completely failed to communicate how much I actually flexed between the two all the time.

I got my self into that situation because the version of me who'd been pushed around as a child had to be so tough I couldn't show weakness (externally - whilst being a complete mess on the jnside).

I suspect the skiing incident hit her so hard because she didn't really know how she felt and what she wanted until it was too late, and she had given you the wrong cues and you headed off in the wrong direction. And since then she has probably been terrified you will leave permanently but can't admit that. Rejection sensitivity makes everything fell 100 times worse than it is.

I did something very similar to DH when our son was small and I was beyond exhausted and lesser men would have walked away. I'm very fortunate he persisted and reassured me as It's only in recent years that I've finally started to understand why I am the way I am and it's because I've started reading a lot more about this type of thing. If you don't think she'd react well to counselling (and can totally image in why) are there books or films that will prompt a discussion?

WidthofaLine · 21/02/2023 22:57

You both sound quite competitive, each one wanting to win the argument.

This incident has shown her a side of you that she finds cruel, whether you agree with that or not. You abandonned her on the slopes, that wasn't kind, you were punishing her for her ourburst.
An outburst that you believed was childish, 'girly' even. Maybe your wife has never been allowed to be that childish girly protected person within her childhood.
She's probably been taught that she should appear strong, resiliant more male like, she would have been rewarded for this type of behaviour, especially her being incredibly attractive, that sort of don't rely on your looks girl, intellegence, logical, rational thoughts gets you respected, at odds with her need for a protector.

What she tells you is not really what she wants, she wants to be looked after as many people do especially by their husbands but you were tested and failed the test, spectacularly. No matter the excuses you failed to have her back and look after her, if you were an officer in the army you would have been hauled over the coals for that one. They produce gentlemen when with wives and logical fighting machines when at work.

She now ultimately doesn't feel safe with you, this was a turning point, she will look at the future and see as she ages you may withdraw love as instantly as turning off a tap.
This time you were just prooving a point but she knows that when she needs you in future your love will be conditional.
I doubt very much you can repair the damage, at each point you have refused to take any accountability for leaving her, you will not admit your spite on that day.; have you even said sorry ?

You refuse to apologise and this has made a bad situation very much worse.
She needs a different type of man.

It's not all your fault but you are not suited and there is a high probability of you letting her down again, there are men that may be able to make her feel much safer and if she starts looking whilst she is young there is probably a high probability of her finding one by your description.

This will have been literally the hill you died on.

NovelFarmer · 21/02/2023 23:01

Not sure if I’ve missed it but have you apologised for your part yet?

There is a quote in the kids show Bluey.
“Do you want to be right or do you want Bingo to keep playing”.

Your wife felt abandoned. You felt she didn’t want you there.

Apologise. Say you’re so sorry she felt abandoned. You made a mistake in thinking she wanted to be left alone. That you will never leave her again and will check if she wants to be left alone next time.

As a generalisation, women want to feel like their man keeps them safe.
You didn’t do that.

WidthofaLine · 21/02/2023 23:16

I'd be interested to know whether she had any sisters ?

TrishM80 · 22/02/2023 00:24

Why are so many people saying he "abandoned her" on the slopes? Have you all missed the bit where she fucked off in a huff after abusing him for having the temerity to offer to help her? What was he supposed to do, grovel after her like a dog?!

She abandoned herself, OP was dead right to go back to the hotel. No woman would be expected to tolerate that level of emotional abuse from a partner, so it shouldn't be tolerated when the perpetrator is a woman.

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 00:29

TrishM80 · 22/02/2023 00:24

Why are so many people saying he "abandoned her" on the slopes? Have you all missed the bit where she fucked off in a huff after abusing him for having the temerity to offer to help her? What was he supposed to do, grovel after her like a dog?!

She abandoned herself, OP was dead right to go back to the hotel. No woman would be expected to tolerate that level of emotional abuse from a partner, so it shouldn't be tolerated when the perpetrator is a woman.

Oh shup

He was lucky she was only having a suana when he got back, many women would have ended up shagging the ski instructor. 😂

How d'ya like them apples for abandonment on holiday.

swimsong · 22/02/2023 00:53

This sentence leapt out at me:

"She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something."

What do you mean - can you give some examples?

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 01:08

The OP fucked off in an unfamiliar place, without telling his wife he fucked off and then didn’t answer her calls.

Think that’s why the wife felt abandoned.

If this is the first time the OP had left his wife without giving any indication that she would be left to sort her own way back, she would have had no reason to have paid attention to which bus to catch, or where the hotel was even located. Especially if the OP was the one to have made the booking.

The OP’s wife sounds fiery. There are positives and negatives that come with having such a disposition.

Rather than forcing his wife down the path of therapy, a suggestion which she will perceive as a criticism of her character, the OP could simply accept this is how his wife operates and just keep it at the back of his mind for future incidents.

NovelFarmer · 22/02/2023 01:20

Added to that, his wife was probably waiting for the OP at the bottom of the run for ages and he never showed up leaving her worried about what might have happened to him. Especially as conditions were on the more dangerous side.
She then makes numerous calls to check that he’s ok/what’s happened and he doesn’t pick up.
Awful behaviour by the OP.

InWalksBarberalla · 22/02/2023 01:21

I think her comparing herself to a child and wanting you to treat her like a child shows she is in need of therapy.

The skiing incident sounds you both behaved in less than ideal ways. But skiing can be high stress, my DH and I often joke about how our marriage managed to survive our early days skiing (with me being a nervous inexperienced skiier). But out of the heat of the moment I know that I'm an adult responsible for my own safety and my behaviour. Your wife seems to think you should just put up with any level of abuse she feels like dishing out like a stroppy teenager.

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 01:31

The most worrying aspect of this is you wanting to cart her off to therapy to ensure she agrees with you, try it you may be in for a shock.

You are lacking in empathy, unwilling to admit fault and blaming just about everything for being a poor partner on that day. You were unresponsive to her, you say you only asked to help her and she flipped, I don't believe this.

Sounds like she been transferred from a domineering father to a controlling partner.

Sorry, your insistance on this and this thread shows you are man that will not let this go, apologise and smooth things over, you want to win.

Summerfun54321 · 22/02/2023 01:32

I ideally would like a diagram of where you both were on the ski slope, your trajectories and a rough scale to determine who threw the biggest tantrum on the ski slope that day.

WidthofaLine · 22/02/2023 01:37

swimsong · 22/02/2023 00:53

This sentence leapt out at me:

"She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something."

What do you mean - can you give some examples?

It means she's sick of being critised by him.

She's sick of him micro managing her and him always knowing best.

That slow, continual critisism, that gnaws away until the victim finally snaps.