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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 15:13

Ihavekids · 21/02/2023 13:29

I'm going to try to explain a bit more. As a kid, she was never loved through her vulnerability by her Dad. If she was vulnerable, sad, scared she never learnt that this was an OK feeling and that her Dad would love her anyway. So now, as an adult, in a sad, scared, vulnerable situation she finds it hard to be accepted. So she hits out and pushes away the people she loves, so that she won't be rejected by them for being dad, scared, vulnerable. It's disorganized and avoidant attachment. If you look up those 2 forms of attachments suspect it'll be enlightening.
Therapy for her will involve realizing why she reacts like she does and hopefully resolving some of it. It might be quite painful for her but from what she's saying, about expecting you to look after her like a child, even if she misbehaved, be her hero etc, I think she'd really benefit.
I hope you guys can sort it out.

I looked up those two attachment styles and they don't sound like quite her. She is very loving and open, kind and funny and easy to get along with as long as you don't touch any of the 'hot buttons' (i.e. perceived as criticising her, perceived as trying to tell her what to do, perceived as making fun of her).

Your other description would fit very well with how she described her childhood relationship with her father though.

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 15:20

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 15:01

There are lots of people her talking at length about the potential trauma / personality disorder your wife may have and how it manifests. I don't necessarily diagree with any of them; they are all probably right. I do have concerns though in the actions they recommend for you. I would personally ask you to not follow strong/firm actions with your wife yet; leave that to the professionals to recommend (there will be a lot more than just the incident and her history to explore). Let couples/individual counselling guide log-term approach. In the short-term, I would personally recommend a soft/caring approach with her; if she is a good person you want to make thing work out with, then what is the harm in being reassuring and loving whilst you get professional help alongside?

I agree, although I honestly think if I told her that I think she needs counselling then her head would explode!

OP posts:
Ihavekids · 21/02/2023 15:20

greengriff · 21/02/2023 15:13

I looked up those two attachment styles and they don't sound like quite her. She is very loving and open, kind and funny and easy to get along with as long as you don't touch any of the 'hot buttons' (i.e. perceived as criticising her, perceived as trying to tell her what to do, perceived as making fun of her).

Your other description would fit very well with how she described her childhood relationship with her father though.

That might suggest she's processed her history for the most part, only reverting to her childhood state of mind in times of stress. I really think you can work on this.

mathanxiety · 21/02/2023 15:23

Agree with @joan12.

greengriff · 21/02/2023 15:25

Ihavekids · 21/02/2023 15:20

That might suggest she's processed her history for the most part, only reverting to her childhood state of mind in times of stress. I really think you can work on this.

That's wonderful to hear.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 21/02/2023 15:26

However, you seem to be focused on who is to blame/ who is the victim in any given argument.

I think you both need to examine how important your respective trenches are to you. You're both firmly dug in.

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 15:30

Well you know her weaknesses so play to it. I would reassure her / do whatever to "be her hero" for a week or two and as part of that talk about wanting to explore why I struggle with "being the hero" (and pitch couples counselling). Hopefully she will go into it as you will be doing something as a team but any half decent couples counsellor will tell you both straight away if either or both of you need individual cousnelling too.

My DH and I went into our first couples cousnelling as a "team"; at the end of the session (which went so badly), the lady told us straight away we needed individual counselling each and infact asked us not to come back for 3 months till we had some some individual sessions). It in fact took us more than 6 - 8 months of individual counselling before we got back into couples counselling. It was all very intense and disturbing then but makes so much sense now. We were flawed individually and all the more flawed collectively. We still are but we are now self-aware, wiser, nicer, etc. :)

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 15:31

Ihavekids · 21/02/2023 15:20

That might suggest she's processed her history for the most part, only reverting to her childhood state of mind in times of stress. I really think you can work on this.

Yes and this was/is certainly me too.

greengriff · 21/02/2023 15:41

mathanxiety · 21/02/2023 15:26

However, you seem to be focused on who is to blame/ who is the victim in any given argument.

I think you both need to examine how important your respective trenches are to you. You're both firmly dug in.

Yes, I feel that is important. But my main goal is to understand her, and myself. You're right about the 'trenches' but what is gain, for example, by me saying something like 'ok, you're right it was my fault' when I don't mean it or believe it?

OP posts:
SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 21/02/2023 15:48

You don't say 'it was my fault' you say 'can we both talk about what we could have done differently and why we didn't do that on the day so we can find strategy/prevent next time'.

SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 21/02/2023 15:51

Hopefully she would say she could have accepted your attempt to help but didn't because if the language used/the way it made her feel (root cause of this to be considered for next time)
You might say you could have recognised she had behaved badly and answered the phone to see if an olive branch was being offered, you didn't because you were offended and upset (next time you'll try to keep the door open to dialogue)

That type of conversation.

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 15:51

SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox · 21/02/2023 15:48

You don't say 'it was my fault' you say 'can we both talk about what we could have done differently and why we didn't do that on the day so we can find strategy/prevent next time'.

Completey agree with @SoCunningYouCanStickATailOnItAndCallItAFox

You then also garnish that with some affection - "I love you and feel sad about us fighting about this. I do want to protect you so can we both talk about ....."

BreakfastClub80 · 21/02/2023 16:12

I don’t know a lot about childhood trauma but looking purely at the skiing incident I would be interested in whether you and your wife would normally ski alone? In groups I have skied with, I’ve never been confident enough to ski alone though others have. Often it is unspoken that we stay together, or agreed that we do. Essentially I’m asking what the norm is for you as this may help you to understand her point of view here?

If you would normally stay together, then she would have expected you to follow her even after she lashed out at you. She may have spent some time waiting for you and searching for you and worrying about you. Having realised you’d left her, her anger may well have escalated and left her believing you behaved worse than she did (I’m not saying she’s right).

If you often separate when skiing, then maybe you rightly interpreted her lashing out as a request to give her space. Except that she has now told you that wasn’t her intention.

I can understand why you left but I think you’re treating it quite defensively now. Your DW has obviously really built this up in her mind and tried to work out what exactly bothered her so much, but has lost her way in my opinion. If she wants the marriage to work, then she needs to find a way to move on and past this incident. You can’t win here unless she can find a way to clearly signpost you whenever she is going to behave this way and need you to stay close.

If you really want to stay with your wife, then even if you can’t accept that you did anything wrong during the skiing incident, can you not discuss the fact that you obviously hurt her and you’re sorry about that. And try to get her to discuss ways of avoiding this in the future? You’re not a mind reader!

Tbh, you sound very self-aware so I’m sure you’ve already covered that last bit but I suppose I’m trying to show you that sometimes we all behave badly so maybe you can consider whether your DW has a leg to stand on in her view of the skiing.

Good luck.

greengriff · 21/02/2023 16:20

housemaus · 21/02/2023 13:53

She needs therapy. She was doing the push-pull of someone who's grown up under strict, emotionally difficult circumstances - wanting to push against the rules, but also craving that familar, strict boundary where someone else was in charge. That it's reared its head more obviously here I'd say is because she actually was aware there was some actual risk, and so the needing someone else to be in charge won over the needing to be independent - even though that was her first response. Usually, she's not in any danger, so she just pushes against the authority and that's that. But when she was in a more risky scenario, the underlying 'safety' of knowing someone else is in charge - or the fear of thinking they weren't - took over.

It's shit behaviour of her but there seems a straight line between her childhood experiences, how she's behaved in the past, and what she's saying now. When all you know is being told what to do, that's familiar. It's natural that she wanted to push against it (it sounds like her dad was pretty awful) but it's also all she knew - and she fell back to that in a moment of panic.

I'd ask her to see a counsellor/therapist - that her message was inconsistent, she can't expect you to be a mind reader, but (CRUCIALLY) that you want to make her feel safe and supported, but that you can't do so unless she learns to communciate it with you properly and not just expect you to know that she means the opposite of what she says.

Thank you. This makes a lot of sense.

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 16:22

BreakfastClub80 · 21/02/2023 16:12

I don’t know a lot about childhood trauma but looking purely at the skiing incident I would be interested in whether you and your wife would normally ski alone? In groups I have skied with, I’ve never been confident enough to ski alone though others have. Often it is unspoken that we stay together, or agreed that we do. Essentially I’m asking what the norm is for you as this may help you to understand her point of view here?

If you would normally stay together, then she would have expected you to follow her even after she lashed out at you. She may have spent some time waiting for you and searching for you and worrying about you. Having realised you’d left her, her anger may well have escalated and left her believing you behaved worse than she did (I’m not saying she’s right).

If you often separate when skiing, then maybe you rightly interpreted her lashing out as a request to give her space. Except that she has now told you that wasn’t her intention.

I can understand why you left but I think you’re treating it quite defensively now. Your DW has obviously really built this up in her mind and tried to work out what exactly bothered her so much, but has lost her way in my opinion. If she wants the marriage to work, then she needs to find a way to move on and past this incident. You can’t win here unless she can find a way to clearly signpost you whenever she is going to behave this way and need you to stay close.

If you really want to stay with your wife, then even if you can’t accept that you did anything wrong during the skiing incident, can you not discuss the fact that you obviously hurt her and you’re sorry about that. And try to get her to discuss ways of avoiding this in the future? You’re not a mind reader!

Tbh, you sound very self-aware so I’m sure you’ve already covered that last bit but I suppose I’m trying to show you that sometimes we all behave badly so maybe you can consider whether your DW has a leg to stand on in her view of the skiing.

Good luck.

Yeah we often go in at completely different times as I stay out a lot longer than she does.

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 16:23

Thank you everyone for the insightful replies. I'd like to reply to more of them but I think just quoting the replies with a 'thank you' at the bottom is clogging up the thread. I am very grateful to all.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I might suggest counselling without directly asking her to do so (which I think won't go down well)?

OP posts:
Eleganz · 21/02/2023 16:25

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 21/02/2023 14:06

@Eleganz what "come to jesus" talk? 🤨

A talk where a clear requirement for change is expressed, i.e. that someone enters therapy for the sake of the marriage.

Justforlaffs · 21/02/2023 16:31

She sounds like a brat.

Ive had a couple of instances where I’ve acted like this to dh (ie got annoyed with him when I feel he’s being patronising or sexist) however in that situation it doesn’t sound like you were doing anything of the sort.

She is massively unreasonable to still be bringing it up a year later. She is either a strong, independent woman who doesn’t need help getting off the ski slope or she isn’t (or is still strong and independent but just needed help at that particular moment!) but she can’t have it both ways. You’re not a bloody mind reader.

She seems to have huge issues with admitting she needs a hand sometimes and isn’t infallible- but those are her issues to deal with.

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 16:34

CDiamond · 21/02/2023 14:44

Also wanted to add, you talk about 'independant woman', 'patriachy', etc. I have to point out that you are making certain associations/definitions but she (and many women) will not see it that way. Most independant women I know do still want to be cared for by their husbands and do still have emotional expectations of their partners (and vice-versa). This doesn't mean these women aren't independant, or that they switch it on/off. I'm sure you also expect her to demonstrate her love for you in certain ways (that you've come to see as normal/reasonable); does that make you dependant? She sounds pretty independant to me from your own account.

It is surely likely some of her weaknesses stem from her childhood trauma but so will some of her strengths (eg. the strong will). If you want to help her work through her trauma, a good way of doing it is to be supportive, rather than jumping ship! Also ask yourself, if in that incident, if it was your daughter and son-in-law instead, would you have wanted your son-in-law to leave your daughter like that? You may have some advice for your daughter about her actions, but ultimately, you'll have likely wanted your son-in-law to be the bigger person there and stick around. Marriage requires people to take turns being the bigger person when the other is impared for whatever reasons. Take it offline; deal with it later in a caring way.

My DH and I used to have lots of fights; we found the "if this was our son or daughter" question very helpful to work through most bitter arguments. This incident isnt about the facts of whether she had money, blue vs. black slope, etc. This is about emotions; dont make the mistake of having an arugment over facts when this is a matter of emotions, values, insecurities, etc.

It's an interesting thought exercise, but you are bound to take different positions depending on which person was your child and even for some people which gender that child was.

Yes I get that we should all have our moments of "being the bigger person" but that only works in healthy relationships otherwise it can quickly be an excuse for continuing to put up with a pattern of poor behaviour. If we are to take OPs post at face value, his wife's behaviour was part of a pattern of angry outbursts against him, not just a bad moment.

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 16:40

greengriff · 21/02/2023 16:23

Thank you everyone for the insightful replies. I'd like to reply to more of them but I think just quoting the replies with a 'thank you' at the bottom is clogging up the thread. I am very grateful to all.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I might suggest counselling without directly asking her to do so (which I think won't go down well)?

It is difficult to deliver an ultimatum in a way that isn't perceived as such. I think it is about being in a place where she can express her emotions and that you are in a place where you can remain calm about the situation. Remember that you are making this intervention because you are concerned about her and your marriage.

To get the change you need you can't always avoid conflict and unfortunately her angry outbursts are the problem you are trying to tackle and hence why you are seeking to avoid conflict.

GoldDuster · 21/02/2023 16:42

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I might suggest counselling without directly asking her to do so (which I think won't go down well)?

She's not daft. You can't lure her into it without her realising.

Your remit is you, and your part in the dynamic. Find one for yourself and get a clear understanding of your part. I would take the focus off her and her faults and deal with your own, because that is all that you can do. You can't fix her, or change her, there is no magic key to making her the person you want her to be.

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 16:55

GoldDuster · 21/02/2023 16:42

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I might suggest counselling without directly asking her to do so (which I think won't go down well)?

She's not daft. You can't lure her into it without her realising.

Your remit is you, and your part in the dynamic. Find one for yourself and get a clear understanding of your part. I would take the focus off her and her faults and deal with your own, because that is all that you can do. You can't fix her, or change her, there is no magic key to making her the person you want her to be.

That approach seems to suggest that there is no role in communicating your feelings about a situation to a partner and encouraging them to seek support. I'll have to respectfully disagree with that assessment. I'm not a massive fan of this idea that we must turn inward to try and solve external problems. It makes therapists a lot of money though.

OP is absolutely entitled to express how his wife's behaviour impacts him and encourage her to either change that behaviour or seek support in managing it.

perfectcolourfound · 21/02/2023 17:34

Your wife clearly has issues. At best, her needs are very variable and she expects you to read her mind, and then blames you when you don't. At worst, she's controlling you by making you walk on eggshells trying to second guess her mood.

Either way, the person primarily responsible for your wife's state of mind and mood is your wife. You can't solve this issue on your own. If your wife won't acknowledge that she's been unreasonable then you can't start to repair the damage.

I don't think it would do your relationship any favours if you accepted responsibility when you clearly aren't responsible either. I think she will just dig in deeper and continue referencing that day on the slopes and how you've let her down (in her mind). You won't be able to move forward healthily unless you can talk about this openly and honestly, and without you being fearful of her response.

In a calm moment, could you explain to her that her varying demands and expectation that you will read her mind; her being abusive to you on the slopes and leaving you, and then referring back to the day a year later as being a turning point - it's all damaging you and your relationship. And you would like her to consider therapy so you don't lose what you have.

3LittleFishes · 21/02/2023 18:29

You are a better person than me OP, I couldn't live with her!
For what it's worth - I absolutely don't believe you should have followed her like a little lost puppy, it might be what she wanted but having a paddy doesn't usually result in adults getting what they want.
She needs to sort her issues out and I would definitely be telling her the marriage was on the line if she didn't.

DivorcedAndDelighted · 21/02/2023 18:36

Is therapy not the same as counselling? I know couples that have been to counselling and said it was useless and that they had already thought of everything that the counsellor suggested

Oh @greengriff , you sound like a really decent man, but that is a really shit attitude. That's like saying "I knew someone who went to a doctor once with a stubbed toe and said it was useless, so I won't bother going with my cough ..". People are different, their problems are different, and counsellors are different, and sometimes one party goes to couples counselling with their mind already made up, resistant to trying anything new, rather than with an open heart and the desire to improve things. You sound like you really do want to improve things, so give yourself the best shot by being open-minded.

Have a read of Does therapy fix everything?