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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately in need of help to understand my wife (and myself)!

373 replies

greengriff · 21/02/2023 12:14

I’m really in need of some advice. My relationship with my wife is currently at its lowest ebb. There are many reasons, but I wanted to focus on just one of them, an incident that took place on holiday last year. I want to talk about this incident firstly because my wife described this it as the ‘breaking point’ in our marriage and that it caused her to hate me a little bit, and secondly because I don’t understand why she blames me for it and I would really, really like to.

First a bit of what I believe is relevant background information: My wife grew up with a very domineering father. She chafed under his rules and couldn’t wait to get out of his house and rule her own life. Consequently, anything she even perceives as an attempt by me to tell her what to do is like a red rag to a bull and is guaranteed to lead to an instant confrontation. She views these kind of moments through the dynamic of sex (i.e. ‘you think because you’re the man that you should be in charge..’ etc.) whereas I view them as simply a clash of two quite dominant personalities. She very much emphasizes her independence as a grown woman from the need for a man and considers it patronising and reacts negatively if I ever have an opinion (apart from praise) regarding how she’s doing something. She is an extremely intelligent, strong-willed and capable person who, if she decides she’s going to do something, will work ceaselessly until she does. She’s definitely not one of life’s victims.

Anyway, to the point: We were on a skiing holiday last year. The slope at the time was very icy but pitch-wise it was nothing extreme. To give some perspective she’d skied steeper slopes many dozens (maybe even hundreds) of times before and there were at least a hundred other people on it of all levels. But it was indeed icy and unpleasant to ski and she was not definitely having fun, so - seeing that she was struggling - I offered to help. She shouted some abuse at me and skied off. Feeling thoroughly pssed off that an attempted act of kindness elicited such an unexpected response, I skied off in a different direction to do my own thing. When we met back at the hotel in the afternoon she told me that I’d abandoned her, leaving her scared and alone, ignored her calls, left her with no money and no idea how to get back to the hotel and that the whole thing was my fault. This obviously irritated the living sht out of me as I believed that I’d done nothing wrong and was in fact the wronged party.

This argument never really went away and we got stuck into it again last night, where some extra details were added that only increased my frustration and lack of understanding of her, and maybe even myself:

She said she needs a husband who’s there for her regardless of what she says. But for me it’s not what she says, it’s what she does. If she insults me and storms off am I supposed to go and plead with her to come back?

She then said that I would not have left a child in the same situation, to which I agreed, but said that she is a capable and responsible adult and therefore it’s different. She then said she wants the same kind of love and caring that I’d give a child and that she needs me to ‘be the man’ and ‘be her hero’ and be committed to her safety even when she’s acting like a twat.

And finally she said that she wants someone who would move a mountain for her even when she’d directly told them not to!

Thinking about this just makes my head ache! For 99.9% of the time in our relationship if I’d gone directly against her wishes or treated her like I would a child it would have led to an explosion that made Hiroshima look tame! Yet I’m supposed to do this – to ‘be the man’ and make her act against her own will – at certain times when she’s most angry and attacking? And not doing so is my fault and makes her hate me!?

What does this actually mean? That her ‘independent woman’ persona is not real? That it is real, right up until the moment that it isn’t, and I’m supposed to know when those moments are and switch role to the helpful patriarch? Something else?

If someone can shed some light on this please do as I’m really struggling. If I can’t solve this puzzle our relationship is likely to fail, and that’s the last thing I want.

Maybe it’s not her and there’s actually something wrong with me! If you think so, please tell me straight!

OP posts:
ConfusedNT · 21/02/2023 13:34

I agree with the people who said she needs therapy. She's obviously had a horrible childhood which has left her with some issues. But instead of confronting and tackling those issues she's expecting you to work around them so it then becomes your fault if that doesn't work

She needs individual therapy to work on her childhood issues and you need joint counselling to work out how to communicate and work with each other, but that means both of you changing things not just you

The problem in situations like this is that she has to be willing to fix things as well. One person cannot fix a marriage by themselves, or make a marriage work by themselves, both people have to commit to it.

Branleuse · 21/02/2023 13:35

I think you cant win with this one. Youll always be in the wrong.
Tell her good luck with finding someone that doesnt get hurt when she lashes out and treats her as a capable adult yet a tender child at the same time.

greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:35

hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 13:30

Skiing down an icy mountain is only second to childbirth in being a reason for saying awful things to someone who is trying to help

I have shouted awful things at my partner when he has tried to help me in icy ski conditions. Awful things.

However, what I would say is that he has never actually left me. He didn't take it seriously - these are moments of quite intense stress and you say awful things sometimes. I know what people might say to that - "you should never say awful things" but the unfortunate fact is that when under stress, we do say bad things.

Me and my partner can laugh about my outbursts on the slopes now - all at my expense I would add. I wonder why you cannot?

I'm trying to think if I'd be pissed off if he left me....I think I would. I think I know what she means - you are literally in a moment of sheer terror and need someone and they fuck off? I'm wondering if you took it a bit personally - could you have just got out of her way for a bit, rather than going completely?

I'll get flamed for saying all of this but just trying to understand why you both can't laugh about it. In your circumstance you both did something wrong, it's worse in mine as I am the one who was a dick and he wasn't so I have to take that on the chin?

Thanks for the great answer. Don't forget - she skied away from me first (sounds childish I know, but I think it's relevant). Would you see him leaving you after an outburst as the breaking point of your marriage though because you could no longer trust him to look after your safety (after years of telling him how independent you were)? And insist that it was his fault?

I'd love to be able to laugh at it, but my marriage is on the line!

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:37

Branleuse · 21/02/2023 13:35

I think you cant win with this one. Youll always be in the wrong.
Tell her good luck with finding someone that doesnt get hurt when she lashes out and treats her as a capable adult yet a tender child at the same time.

But why is she so insistent that I was wrong in this case? This is what I want to understand.

OP posts:
GoldDuster · 21/02/2023 13:41

greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:37

But why is she so insistent that I was wrong in this case? This is what I want to understand.

She's testing you. She's insisting that you're wrong, because she's using this argument, which is really just a symptom not the cause of the issues, and is pushing you and pushing you to see if you'll keep holding on.

It's really unhealthy and exhausting. You both need the tools to be able to see that it's not the argument that's the issue, to stand together against the issue and work out how you're going to move past it.

Because of how she's wired, she's unable to do that, and she needs proof that you're going to abandon her, hence this push/pull drama.

hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 13:43

greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:35

Thanks for the great answer. Don't forget - she skied away from me first (sounds childish I know, but I think it's relevant). Would you see him leaving you after an outburst as the breaking point of your marriage though because you could no longer trust him to look after your safety (after years of telling him how independent you were)? And insist that it was his fault?

I'd love to be able to laugh at it, but my marriage is on the line!

I'm just not sure about all this dad stuff, I think it is over intellectualizing something quite basic.

She was fucking terrified on a ski slope. She had an outburst. She felt totally ashamed of her outburst (as well as being actually shit at skiing) and needed you to see this part of her and accept it (i.e. that she is not only an independent woman) and wanted you to be there for her.

There is no such thing as a totally independent person, we all rely on others for help in some ways. I think taking the statement of 'independent woman' too literally is a mistake? What you might mean is that she finds it hard to show vulnerability and the one time she did, you fucked off, that might be a thing. It can be humiliating if you project a 'strong' persona, show vulnerablilty and then that person rejects you - it means you can't be accepted for your flaws, you genuinely do have to be this strong person forever and ever, even when you are shitting it on an icy slope

greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:44

RedRocketGirl · 21/02/2023 13:17

Sounds to me like there is a lot of noise and escalation around a basic communication problem. My first reaction to your post was did you really just ask her if there was anything that you could do to help or did you immediately start telling her what she needed to do? How did you phrase it exactly? This is important.

My partner and I do a sport together and sometimes he will give me helpful advice, but this isn't always well received especially when I am struggling, as I know what I should be doing but clearly I am struggling to do it! He's intending to be supportive and helpful and what he says is totally right, but I feel critiqued and criticized which makes me snappy in response.

So she snapped and you then went off in a huff and abandoned her and then you doubled down by sulking and ignored her calls. She was out of order, but you have also been an utter arse to do that. Maybe she initially called you to apologise and or to ask for your help.... but sulking like that is really toxic to any relationship and I would have be pretty pissed off to be treated that way and more so that you view yourself as the injured party. Sounds to me like you were both being dickheads.

Like other posters I think all this 'hero' stuff is strange and also unreasonable, but maybe it's her way of saying that if you really cared you wouldn't have abandoned her and gone off in a sulk because she was struggling and having a bad day. By all means give her space but at least answer a phone call / wait at the ski lift etc.

I think your only hope is relationship and maybe individual counselling.

I cannot remember what I initially said, but I have learnt over many years not to try and directly tell her what to do, so it would not have been that.

Also she went off. I just didn't follow. I could have followed her, but why would I given what happened and that she'd spent years telling me just how independent she is?

I did not ignore her calls. We were on a mountain. Coverage is sketchy. She insists that I must have turned my phone off because she had good signal all the time and was on the same carrier as me, but we were not in the same area, so what can I say? I'm pretty convinced she believes I'm lying about that, but there's nothing I can do to prove otherwise.

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:45

hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 13:43

I'm just not sure about all this dad stuff, I think it is over intellectualizing something quite basic.

She was fucking terrified on a ski slope. She had an outburst. She felt totally ashamed of her outburst (as well as being actually shit at skiing) and needed you to see this part of her and accept it (i.e. that she is not only an independent woman) and wanted you to be there for her.

There is no such thing as a totally independent person, we all rely on others for help in some ways. I think taking the statement of 'independent woman' too literally is a mistake? What you might mean is that she finds it hard to show vulnerability and the one time she did, you fucked off, that might be a thing. It can be humiliating if you project a 'strong' persona, show vulnerablilty and then that person rejects you - it means you can't be accepted for your flaws, you genuinely do have to be this strong person forever and ever, even when you are shitting it on an icy slope

Thanks. That's a very interesting perspective.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 21/02/2023 13:45

Your marriage is on the line due to that incident?

I bet she would be terrified if you called her bluff which I think you ought to do

How about you move out for a week or two so she can see what it is like without you since you are not her hero ……….sure there are plenty Hero’s wanting to jump into your shoes 🤣🤣

greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:47

DiscontinuedModelHusband · 21/02/2023 13:22

i think you need to find a way to have this conversation with your wife.

tell her that you love that she's an independent, competent, capable woman.

but also tell her that if there are times she needs more support/care from you, that that is understandable, that you will always do your best to be that person for her (assuming you want to).

but that you have trouble recognising when those times are, given that 99% of the time she presents as ultra-capable.

i also agree that she's probably got a lot to unpick from her childhood.
but i doubt she would thank you for being the one to suggest this.

Thank you.

OP posts:
Quitelikeit · 21/02/2023 13:47

There is being understanding (like you have tried) then there is having no boundaries (like you are doing now)

You are literally letting this woman push you to the brink because she is unable to act rationally

she will take you down with her if you’re not careful

greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:48

Quitelikeit · 21/02/2023 13:45

Your marriage is on the line due to that incident?

I bet she would be terrified if you called her bluff which I think you ought to do

How about you move out for a week or two so she can see what it is like without you since you are not her hero ……….sure there are plenty Hero’s wanting to jump into your shoes 🤣🤣

I'm sure there would be - she's a very attractive lady.

OP posts:
greengriff · 21/02/2023 13:49

Quitelikeit · 21/02/2023 13:47

There is being understanding (like you have tried) then there is having no boundaries (like you are doing now)

You are literally letting this woman push you to the brink because she is unable to act rationally

she will take you down with her if you’re not careful

No, I'm quite mentally tough. Although I must admit that this is really bothering me. I just want to see if there's something daft I'm missing, or if I am indeed in the wrong.

OP posts:
hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 13:49

Also she went off. I just didn't follow. I could have followed her, but why would I given what happened and that she'd spent years telling me just how independent she is?

That doesn't quite ring true for what I know about skiing. Someone doesn't 'just go off' - you are all going in the same direction. Someone 'sets off first' and you literally presume everyone else is following?

housemaus · 21/02/2023 13:53

She needs therapy. She was doing the push-pull of someone who's grown up under strict, emotionally difficult circumstances - wanting to push against the rules, but also craving that familar, strict boundary where someone else was in charge. That it's reared its head more obviously here I'd say is because she actually was aware there was some actual risk, and so the needing someone else to be in charge won over the needing to be independent - even though that was her first response. Usually, she's not in any danger, so she just pushes against the authority and that's that. But when she was in a more risky scenario, the underlying 'safety' of knowing someone else is in charge - or the fear of thinking they weren't - took over.

It's shit behaviour of her but there seems a straight line between her childhood experiences, how she's behaved in the past, and what she's saying now. When all you know is being told what to do, that's familiar. It's natural that she wanted to push against it (it sounds like her dad was pretty awful) but it's also all she knew - and she fell back to that in a moment of panic.

I'd ask her to see a counsellor/therapist - that her message was inconsistent, she can't expect you to be a mind reader, but (CRUCIALLY) that you want to make her feel safe and supported, but that you can't do so unless she learns to communciate it with you properly and not just expect you to know that she means the opposite of what she says.

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 21/02/2023 13:56

housemaus · 21/02/2023 13:53

She needs therapy. She was doing the push-pull of someone who's grown up under strict, emotionally difficult circumstances - wanting to push against the rules, but also craving that familar, strict boundary where someone else was in charge. That it's reared its head more obviously here I'd say is because she actually was aware there was some actual risk, and so the needing someone else to be in charge won over the needing to be independent - even though that was her first response. Usually, she's not in any danger, so she just pushes against the authority and that's that. But when she was in a more risky scenario, the underlying 'safety' of knowing someone else is in charge - or the fear of thinking they weren't - took over.

It's shit behaviour of her but there seems a straight line between her childhood experiences, how she's behaved in the past, and what she's saying now. When all you know is being told what to do, that's familiar. It's natural that she wanted to push against it (it sounds like her dad was pretty awful) but it's also all she knew - and she fell back to that in a moment of panic.

I'd ask her to see a counsellor/therapist - that her message was inconsistent, she can't expect you to be a mind reader, but (CRUCIALLY) that you want to make her feel safe and supported, but that you can't do so unless she learns to communciate it with you properly and not just expect you to know that she means the opposite of what she says.

Great Post

Eleganz · 21/02/2023 13:59

Have you had the "come to Jesus" talk with her about seeking professional support for her issues?

On the face of it she has an unreasonable expectation of you in that she wants you there even if she is abusive and hurtful towards you. This is the behaviour of a child and clearly could well be a result of the issues in her childhood.

Okay, so you reacted and decided to distance yourself from the situation in the slope. You didn't put her at any real risk, you were not in anyway abusive or anything. Your response was totally understandable even if it was hurtful to her. She seems to have no ability to see that it was her behaviour that led to be situation. She pushed you away and so you went away.

So, unless she takes responsibility for the impact of her behaviour on you and your marriage then I'm not sure what you can actually do about it other their either suffer on silence or separate.

hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 14:05

It seems a bit unfair to only be concentrating on one side of the story here

What about OP?

What is it within his childhood that meant he took this so personally? He made one attempt to help his wife (in years?) and because it was rejected, he takes himself off for the whole day. What has happened to him in his childhood? Seems an over reaction?

Has he never heard of 'giving someone a minute' when they are under stress? I think we can all be emotionally intelligent enough to recognise when someone is under a lot of stress and just 'give them a minute' without completely abandoning them?

ComeTheFckOnBridget · 21/02/2023 14:06

@Eleganz what "come to jesus" talk? 🤨

Vallmo47 · 21/02/2023 14:06

It sounds as if in many ways your wife is still responding in a way you wouldn’t totally be surprised to see in a child. As a teenage girl, I frequently pushed my parents buttons just to see if they’d still be around to catch me if I fell. I was just making sure that despite everything, they’d still pick up the pieces and love me anyway. I think your wife knew she was being unreasonable when she skied off in a temper tantrum, but she then decided that if you truly loved her you would still have followed her. When you didn’t, she went back to feeling unloved and like this was the ultimate breaking point of your marriage. I think it’s lovely that you still want to work on your marriage. It’s a bit difficult to give advice without hearing her side of the story. So it could be that you’d done a few things prior to this incident which made her feel that the marriage was on the rocks, and that this then happened and it was the final straw that broke the camels back.
I think you need to calmly speak to her (maybe even in writing, because you are good with your words), and say you want to move forward together and that you will do whatever it takes to do so. I think if you suggest individual therapy for her she might lash out and assume you think everything is her fault. So I’d suggest couple’s therapy in hope that a conversation will arise there where she sees for herself that she might need some individual work, too. Maybe you do as well! Who knows, we haven’t heard her version. Good luck :)

Nightynightnight · 21/02/2023 14:08

I have had some stupidly dramatic outbursts at less. And once the situation has resolved and I feel safe again, I have the capacity to reflect on my behaviour, see where I have been unreasonable and apologise to anyone who was affected by it. What I don't do is keep trying to apportion blame for my actions on others. I am always responsible for my own behaviour.
You had a fight. A couple with healthy attachment would have met up later that night, apologised to each other and never mentioned it again unless it could become a joke.

The fact that your wife can not get past this tells us that she is so psychologically damaged her brain will not allow her to accept any responsibility or blame for any negative behaviours. Her psyche is too fragile.

One of the reasons she keeps bringing this up is because you have maintained your innocence. High conflict people will not be able to let go of her position in the face of someone who has a different narrative. The more she tells her story, the more she will believe it. Just know that you can not defend yourself against her distorted thought processes. There is just no point in trying.

With this kind of thinking you need to be prepared to be assertive about what you can and can not offer her. She wants you to be a rescuer but tells you if you rescue her you an oppressor. Can you live like this? If so batter on. If not you keep it simple and avoid blaming language. "I can not do that".

hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 14:11

Another alternative theory is that you don't actually like her being a woman who is not 100% independent and in reality occasionally needs your support OP?
Does it make you feel 'put upon' to have a 'needy 'woman? Hence your reaction to this situation where you did offer some support, outside of your own comfort zone, and fucked it off quick smart?

I think people pathologising the wife are being unfair. There are 2 people in this situation.

Justcallmebebes · 21/02/2023 14:13

fufulina · 21/02/2023 12:30

Did you leave her without money or a way to get back to the hotel?

No, she skied off and left him!

hamstersarse · 21/02/2023 14:15

Justcallmebebes · 21/02/2023 14:13

No, she skied off and left him!

If I am reading this right...she set off and would have been fully expecting him to follow

He decided (by his own admission) to not follow her

Montasaurus · 21/02/2023 14:16

Do you have children @greengriff ?

Your relationship, the way you’ve described sounds a lot like my parents. My mother treats my father the way you are treated by your wife. Consequently, he has nothing apart from her, she dominates his life with her ridiculous overreactions and ‘tests’.

The reason she gets away with it, is because you let her. I have often wished for my DF to just leave her as he’s clearly not happy with her and also, the longer he stays (50+ years now) the worst she becomes. Additionally growing up in this household with her behaviours was traumatic with untold impacts on her children.

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