How to cope with an almost sexless marriage? Can counselling really help?

[LosingIt2022]

Hoping this is the most appropriate subforum.
I'm looking for some advice because the lack of sex life is putting a huge strain on our relationship.
I want to propose some form of couples therapy / counselling because this is the only way I can think of to make her understand how important this is to me; I do not expect miracles but I do not want to leave any stones unturned.
If nothing changes, I would at least like to understand if there are some coping strategies to help me not lose my sanity - I am banging my head against the wall while dying inside and she doesn't seem to take notice.

What are your experiences?
Is there really a solution for couples whose sex drives change so much over time?

The story:

I'm male, my wife and I are both mid 30s, we have 2 kids.

I have always had a higher sex drive but, while mine has remained constant, hers has been constantly plummeting.

It used to be about once a week, I imagined it would have become less frequent, but I never imagined once every 2-3 months.

When it happens, she gets really lost in the moment, which is amazing, but it has simply moved at the very bottom of her priority list: it will only happen if she's not too tired, if she has already finished her favourite TV series, if that night her best friend doesn't call her to rant about her new life as a divorcee, etc etc.

Any attempt at experimenting has been shot down mercilessly: new lingerie makes her feel under pressure, toys are not her thing.

I have tried to plan and set some time for ourselves in advance, but she says this makes her feel too much pressure.

Any attempt at communicating is very hard because she just does not want to talk about these things; she was brought up in a very conservative, not religious but Jane-Austen-like environment.

I asked if she would ever be willing to, well, tease me; there are times when she wants to cuddle and nothing more, is that really that different? Apparently for her yes, she was horrified at the idea.

I got really, really cross because a couple of weeks ago she told me in the morning that she would have actually wanted me but I was in the loft, working. Why didn't you call me? So I should just wait in bed for you to finish your TV series, on the off chance that once in a blue moon you might actually want me, but there can be no communication or planning?

I have lost count of the number of times I told her how I feel rejected and unimportant, and how I feel less important than a stupid TV series. It just doesn't register, it's as if I were speaking a different language.

There are lots of other things in the relationship which work really well, and they are a huge reason why I fancy her so much, but this remains a big problem.
I often wonder: had I known it would have ended up like this, would I have married this person and had 2 kids?

52yo, peri or menopausal.

sex drive through the roof. which brings its own issues.

I have a lot of sympathy for you OP and also for @lonelyblonde

@ILoveMyNewThermosFlask some women like you become very sexual.
Others see their libido plummet.

Both are perfectly normal after the menopause.

@ILoveMyNewThermosFlask no, I wasn't making the comparison to my situation to say the OP's wife may be peri-menopausal, just mentioning that I feel chemically castrated currently. Loss of libido is common after having kids too. Sometimes it's not personal and nothing to do with your partner was my point.

I have no idea what'll happen to my libido after the menopause but it's been on the wane since I had kids. Decreasing sex drive as you age seems to be more common than your own experience, for men and for women.

Get a grip

@Ineedtosleep79 "I think the point is that lonelyblonde 's OH doesn't want to. Or at least that is the impression he is giving off."

Sure, but - and there are quite a few similarities with my case - I'd find it important what exactly @lonelyblonde 's husband doesn't want to do, and why. The final outcome may not change, but at least for me (obviously it's hugely subjective) the rationale behind it can make a bit of a difference.

For example:
Assuming there's no easy way to solve his ED, would lonelyblonde like some 'alternative', eg he using toys on her? If she does and he refuses, why? If he refuses because he sees it as a reminder of his ED and it crushes him psychologically, it's one thing. If he doesn't even want to give it a try because he's a selfish bastard who can't be arsed and takes his wife for granted, it's quite another.

@2pence "I imagine it's a little like being heterosexual and having to have same sex intimacy. Would thinking about it like this help to understand what it's like to lose your libido?"

Maybe, up to a point. Look, never for a second have I doubted that there are loads of potential reasons, all perfectly legitimate and beyond the woman's control, that cause her to lose her libido. And I have also never doubted that there can be stuff which is my fault (but, without proper communication, it's hard to get to the bottom of the issue). But the final result is the same.

You mention same sex intimacy. But I have never wanted that, nor have I entered into a relationship with someone where that was a part.

Allow me a brutal example: let's say you married a very good man who, among other things, takes time to understand you, to support you, to advice you etc. Now let's say that for whatever reason (some psychological trauma, PTSD, depression, whatever) he changes and he becomes more of a slob uninterested in life and in you. You cannot really blame it too much on him, he went to Afghanistan (or whatever...) and the crazy s* he saw in the army changed him forever...

BUT, but, but... whether it is beyond his control or not, the final result is the same. He's no longer the same person you married. The relationship is no longer the same. An important part of your relationship, without which you would have probably not married this person, is no more. How would you feel then?

I hope this can help you understand how I feel.

Honestly, @LosingIt2022, I would have to accept the change if I still loved him. Change is genuinely the only constant in life, we grow up and our relationships change as we do. Even without a traumatic event like you describe, I wouldn't expect my husband to be the same person after 5, 10, 20 years together, that's not realistic.

Having children does change how you feel about yourself, your body and life in general. How can it not?

@2pence @LosingIt2022 I don't think @LosingIt2022 wife has that bigger issues though that prevent her from intimacy she is presumably not Ill. There is no major life change that warrants this sort of behaviour. Granted having kids can lessen the libido but it's a bit extreme for it to disappear altogether.

I think there’s a real lack of understanding around a woman’s sexuality, we’re so used to sex being male centric.

For a start, women will often go off sex after having a child. I don’t mean just post birth, I mean for years. If you look to nature, no female mammals will mate when they have dependant young, it’s nature’s contraception in order to provide the young with the best chance of survival. Chimps for example don’t have sex for around 5 years after giving birth. Yes we obviously have contraception, but that doesn’t necessarily override natural hormone changes. It’s important for men to understand this lack of desire can be purely down to nature and not a reflection of a woman’s feelings for a man.

Secondly, whilst men seem to be able to have sex with a woman they’re angry with or don’t like, women rarely would want to. Your anger and resentment at your wife, whilst somewhat understandable, is an act of self sabotage. You need to let that go if you have any hope of getting things back on track.

Thirdly, women generally need to feel desired to have sex with a man. Many men seem to be able to almost ignore their wife all day, and then still want sex with her, that generally doesn’t work for women. We need to feel desired and seen, and by that I don’t mean with lingerie, I don’t even mean just sexually. I mean for a one night stand, a purely physical desire is enough, but that doesn’t work long term, we need a man to show interest in us, ask questions, laugh with us, notice what we like and dislike etc. Obviously men want this too, but they don’t seem to need it for sex like women do.

How often do you make time for your wife that’s not around sex or family? Do you take her out for dinner, laugh with her, ask her about the shows she watches, even watch them with her? Do you know her favourite meal or drink, what’s on her bucket list, what she wants for her future etc? Take interest in her as a human being.

Lastly, feminists aren’t comparable to Nazis simply for wanting the same rights men had, to be considered human and not projections of a male fantasy/demand. You knew this was an offensive term yet you blamed your wife rather than just concede. You also didn’t apologise to the poster you accused of putting words in your mouth when she’d directly quoted you. This makes me wonder if you have a problem with backing down and giving ground in general?

It's unlikely she has any control over it. Same as @LosingIt2022 has no control over how he feels.

It's the idea that this is a deliberate decision to withhold sex that's troublesome.

As I said, even without trauma we change as we age. That's just a normal part of life. Viagra sales would suggest a big change in the aging male sex drive too.

@Naunet, she didn't last give birth a few months ago but years ago. Her sex drive plummeted after birth then went up again. The point I was trying to make is that, even ignoring the moments in life like childbirth breastfeeding bereavement etc where it's quite normal for libido to plummet, even ignoring those the trajectory has been that of a slow but inexorable decline.
And, @2pence , I'm not sure if your comment was meant for me, but, to be clear, I do get it that there can be loads of reasons for her not wanting to, including reasons which can be my fault. I am not entitled to sex, no one is, but I am entitled to a honest, truthful discussion to try to understand what the reasons may be.

Naunet, I take your point about my anger potentially making it all worse, well said. It's one of the reasons why I think we need some external help in the form of counselling / therapy.

On your third point, yes, I know, I know very well, and no, I don't just ignore my wife to then pester her for sex like a caveman. I won't get into specifics because I don't to share anything that could identify us, but she often repeats how she has never had a partner who complimented her as much or who did certain things for her (no details). To be absolutely clear, I imagine I could do more / better / differently but, again, without better communication it's hard to understand, isn't it.

Lastly, for the trillionth time: you are yet another one who has got it all wrong. No, I did not compare feminists to Nazis. I was criticising the double standards and the hypocrisy of those who say "leave him you deserve better" when a woman isn't happy about her sex life, but who then gaslight men complaining about their sex lives, dismissing them as sex pests who don't understand that sex isn't everything. The word was used in that context, not to mean that all feminists are nazis, but to criticise the hypocrisy and double standards of the extremists who behave this way.

I tried to explain that my wife had used it in the same way with the same meaning; but no, this explanation is not acceptable, right, because you are now saying that I am "blaming it on my wife" (???) while someone else wrote that even women can have concealed misogynist tendencies.
I tried to elaborate that, just like criticising the extremes and hypocrisies of champagne socialists doesn't make you a fascist, so criticising the extremes and hypocrisies of these characters doesn't make you a misogynist, but the gaslighting continued, with abuse (snarky comments on personal hygiene, other very very nasty stuff I'm not going to repeat and which would have had a man banned had he wrote that, and rightly so) that I shrug off but which could well have disastrous consequences on someone in a more precarious emotional and mental state.

As for putting words in my mouth, who did I not apologise to?
The 2-3 people who thought I wait in bed for her while she does her house chores (never said that, never happened, never will)?
Or the one who thought I had said we never argue on anything (never said that, I said there's some important stuff on which we have always been on the same wavelength and have never fought - this doesn't mean never fighting on anything)?
The only genuine misunderstanding was that, on something, I remained calm the first time but we argued furiously when she brought it up a 2nd time. I don't remember what I wrote exactly, I think something like "I can see why the confusion".

@2pence I always imagined Viagra to be aimed more at those who do want to have sex but have ED/trouble getting it up. Otherwise men are taking it who don't really want to have sex, just for the wife's benefit? Got to say I would absolutely hate that.

@Naunet, she didn't last give birth a few months ago but years ago. Her sex drive plummeted after birth then went up again. The point I was trying to make is that, even ignoring the moments in life like childbirth breastfeeding bereavement etc where it's quite normal for libido to plummet, even ignoring those the trajectory has been that of a slow but inexorable decline

I think you need to read my point on that again, I very clearly point out it can last years, it’s nature. I’m not saying that means that’s the end of conversation, but it’s important for you to keep in mind.

Ive read your endless justification for using the term, but you’ve also noticed you don’t seem to like to give an inch or apologise at all. I wonder if that’s just an act of defence on this thread, or your general personality. It’s the bigger picture I’m getting at, I don’t care for your reasons for using that term.

This is the best and most accurate response on this thread. Well done.

@2pence, @Naunet , the NHS website explains that
"Sildenafil (viagra) works well for erectile dysfunction. If sildenafil does not work for you, it may be because [...] you're not sexually aroused"
which would confirm my understanding that it helps those men who want but can't.

@Naunet, no, I'm not going to apologise for using a derogatory term with which I explicitly meant to criticise certain hypocritical and extremist behaviours. Make of this what you will. I have been abused and gaslighted enough on this thread, I don't care any more.

I am curious, tough: is it the choice of word you object to? Would you have not had a hissy fit if I had criticised the hypocrisy but with a different word? Or do you object to the very fact that, regardless of the choice of words, a man might, how dare he, criticise as hypocritical the double standards?

Never personally heard a man described as having had a 'hissy fit'. Have we had 'hysterical' yet?

I am curious, tough: is it the choice of word you object to? Would you have not had a hissy fit if I had criticised the hypocrisy but with a different word? Or do you object to the very fact that, regardless of the choice of words, a man might, how dare he, criticise as hypocritical the double standards?

It’s the word. It smacks of misogyny, no matter the sex of the person who first used it. Women can have internalised misogyny too.

Feel free to debate or highlight hypocrisy - many posters here will agree or sympathise.

Thats a great post from Naunet so I hope you take something from it other that criticism over 1 term.

@Aussiegirl123456
"This is the best and most accurate response on this thread."

Only if read alongside other replies, like that of lonelyblonde here: www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4709088-how-to-cope-with-an-almost-sexless-marriage-can-counselling-really-help?reply=122703017&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

Naunet raises some good points, but the underlying implication seems to be: "it's the man's fault for not doing enough for her and not understanding her enough etc etc, and if it's not the man just has to suck it up"

which, incidentally, is rarely the kind of advice given to the (arguably fewer) women in the opposite situation
but, which, most of all, totally ignores a few important points, like the right of a partner to better communication and the devastating effect this can have on a partner, even if it is completely outside the woman's control.

We must live in very different contexts, then. I have heard the terms 'hissy fit' and 'hysterical' applied to men loads of times. The last time must have been less than a week ago, when a male colleague was complaining with me about another man over-reacting about something.

I didn’t get any vibes that Nanuet was insinuating it was a male’s fault. Maybe it came across that was within the context of this thread because they were offering you (male) advice.
It must be very difficult being in an almost no sex marriage. I couldn’t do it, I know I’d have to leave if I was in a long term no/low sex marriage, but I understand how difficult that is when there’s young children involved. I don’t think there are any right answers unfortunately, as heartbreaking as that is. It’s very hard hey.

We must live in very different contexts, then. I have heard the terms 'hissy fit' and 'hysterical' applied to men loads of times. The last time must have been less than a week ago, when a male colleague was complaining with me about another man over-reacting about something.

I said 'personally'. I'm genuinely surprised you've heard either term applied to men 'loads of times' 🤷🏻‍♀️

@NoSquirrels "It’s the word. It smacks of misogyny, no matter the sex of the person who first used it. Women can have internalised misogyny too."

See, this is what gets me. I get it that you and many others don't like the word. But you have been reacting as if you hold some kind of universal truth, and seem totally unwilling to even consider the concept that maybe, just maybe, it's not as you see it, that maybe, just maybe, other individuals, regardless of gender, might be entitled to a different interpretation.

So a woman cannot use the word in the context I have described, of course not, that would mean your Truth is not universal, that cannot be, so of course if a woman uses it it must be internalised misogyny.

And, remind me, who has "a problem with backing down and giving ground, in general" ?

If I could try to go back to the original point:
we all agree on the importance of counselling.

My (genuine) question is: *what is your experience on couple vs individual counselling?

Some have suggested it may be beneficial to undergo some form of individual counselling - but is this something typically done before - after - at the same time as couple counselling? Does anyone have experience?*

I am somewhat confused , as someone who knows next to nothing about counselling.

Hissy fit? Can you explain what words exactly make you think I was having a ‘hissy fit’, I’m curious? Do you use these kinds of terms towards your wife when she’s perfectly calm too?

Tell me you hate women, without telling me you hate women…