How to cope with an almost sexless marriage? Can counselling really help?

[LosingIt2022]

Hoping this is the most appropriate subforum.
I'm looking for some advice because the lack of sex life is putting a huge strain on our relationship.
I want to propose some form of couples therapy / counselling because this is the only way I can think of to make her understand how important this is to me; I do not expect miracles but I do not want to leave any stones unturned.
If nothing changes, I would at least like to understand if there are some coping strategies to help me not lose my sanity - I am banging my head against the wall while dying inside and she doesn't seem to take notice.

What are your experiences?
Is there really a solution for couples whose sex drives change so much over time?

The story:

I'm male, my wife and I are both mid 30s, we have 2 kids.

I have always had a higher sex drive but, while mine has remained constant, hers has been constantly plummeting.

It used to be about once a week, I imagined it would have become less frequent, but I never imagined once every 2-3 months.

When it happens, she gets really lost in the moment, which is amazing, but it has simply moved at the very bottom of her priority list: it will only happen if she's not too tired, if she has already finished her favourite TV series, if that night her best friend doesn't call her to rant about her new life as a divorcee, etc etc.

Any attempt at experimenting has been shot down mercilessly: new lingerie makes her feel under pressure, toys are not her thing.

I have tried to plan and set some time for ourselves in advance, but she says this makes her feel too much pressure.

Any attempt at communicating is very hard because she just does not want to talk about these things; she was brought up in a very conservative, not religious but Jane-Austen-like environment.

I asked if she would ever be willing to, well, tease me; there are times when she wants to cuddle and nothing more, is that really that different? Apparently for her yes, she was horrified at the idea.

I got really, really cross because a couple of weeks ago she told me in the morning that she would have actually wanted me but I was in the loft, working. Why didn't you call me? So I should just wait in bed for you to finish your TV series, on the off chance that once in a blue moon you might actually want me, but there can be no communication or planning?

I have lost count of the number of times I told her how I feel rejected and unimportant, and how I feel less important than a stupid TV series. It just doesn't register, it's as if I were speaking a different language.

There are lots of other things in the relationship which work really well, and they are a huge reason why I fancy her so much, but this remains a big problem.
I often wonder: had I known it would have ended up like this, would I have married this person and had 2 kids?

I'm definitely not saying that. I've been in the OPs situation myself or similar. But nothing else is working?

I think for us, many factors at play. Definitely some anxiety related to ED, although with the help of viagra that's not much of an issue these days. He does like it when we do it, but doesn't seem to think about it, unless I bring it up. There is no desire unless in the actual moment. We both drink a bit too much. Also, his shift pattern means that he can be coming in from work at 7am, just as I'm getting up for work. My argument re that, is why don't we go to bed in the afternoon if we are both at home? He just wouldn't think to do that!

I think I'd go with shock factor now. Tell her you're deeply unfulfilled, do not want to pester her any more for intimacy, so you've decided to sign up to Illicit Encounters and meet other neglected married people for sex. And do it, right there and then in front of her. Tel her you won't lie to her about any of it. You'll be honest when you're meeting another woman for a date and sex etc.

Thinking about OldFan's point about the difficulties of communication: you are right that that doesn't excuse your wife from communicating with you. Communication is essential for healthy relationships and she needs to do it! But I think what some of us are trying to get across to you is that it's not as simple as "Well she OUGHT to be doing it." If it were, you wouldn't have an issue!

There's something that's stopping her from communicating with you. Could be as simple as habit or lack of interest. Could be deliberate stonewalling on her part. Could be complex hang-ups or even trauma from her past. Could be the way you are approaching her. Could be a combination of things! And it could be something very, very difficult to overcome, as OldFans was talking about.

You need to understand that the SOLUTION for that isn't just you demanding communication; the solution is her being willing to figure out WHY it's so difficult for her, and what techniques she can develop to overcome her problems. YOU are going to have to be willing to let her take the time to figure this out without causing her more problems.

@LosingIt2022 I've been following your thread for a while, your relationship sounds identical to my first marriage. I hope you get a more positive outcome than I managed! I can relate to both you and your wife. We did counselling- I don't really want to share my story on here but PM me if you want to talk it through/have any Q's about the therapy bit.

@dalmation4046 Thank you for sharing. Yes, I appreciate it is a possibility...

May I ask, do you think there was anything your ex could have done / not done / stopped ding to rekindle the relationship? Did he even try? Or, well, to rephrase, would you have any advice for those who are in similar situations but without the abuse you mentioned?

The truth is that it's very easy to take each other for granted in long term relationship. Especially when kids are involved and as you say a threshold for leaving is much higher.
Everyone always points to chores, kids, work, stress etc but it's only a part of the problem and truth is those things never factor as much in new relationship when romance is still blooming. Motivation and drive slow down with time and it takes effort and willingness to keep the spark going. And working as a team so nobody ends up too tired or resentful to bother.

On top of that the less sex women have the less they want it so it becomes a vicious cycle, especially as majority of women have more of a responsive desire - meaning it grows with sexual stimuli and depends on situation.

Women are also told over and over again that sex is a physical need, something reduced to drive and release. And something that is mainly important to men. You even see it all the time on this forum when people talk about desire only in context of sex drive /libido.
In reality sex can be extremely emotional, intimate experience.
Without this intimacy sex can easily become another chore, especially when you add boredom and lack of libido to the mix.

Then there is unfortunate fact that women often do not have as satisfying sex as men do. They orgasm less, they are less likely to talk about their fantasies and expect higher standards. I'm not saying that's the case with you but maybe it's something to think about.

I believe to solve anything in relationship first you need to have similar goals. Without deciding that improving your sex life is important for both of you nothing is going to change.
I would also try to avoid blaming, demanding and criticism and focus instead on explaining your needs. Why is sex with her important for you and how lack of it makes you feel? What does she need to enjoy it more often? What needs is she filling by watching TV and how can you help her balance those needs with finding time and energy for intimate relationship etc.

Get some wine, order nice take away and make this conversation as pleasant and productive as possible. It should be about exploring each other and finding mutal understanding, not about arguing and blaming.

Exactly the same thing happened to me! I was with the wrong man. Many years of no sex/affection/intimacy because I wasn’t attracted to him but too dumb and stupid to actually say something.

I was this woman. I also bf my daughter up to age 3. You mentioned it and for me BFing killed any sexual desire. BFing made me feel so overwhelmed, overstimulated and touched out. I just wanted to veg out and feel nothing. Stare into space. In any case I do feel it’s a “mum” thing. Partly hormonal and partly situational. Young kids seem to leech more off their mum and I found it so draining. If DH asked me a question I would be like “don’t speak to me”.

Until my child started school I was completely uninterested. I felt repulsed by the idea of sex. My DH would do ridiculous things like I’d be cooking dinner and he would try it on and I’d be furious like get the fuck off me. We even tried scheduling it; the time would come around and I’d make an excuse. I told him to get a prozzie and just fuck off.

All I can say it’s like when you have food poisoning and you don’t even want your favourite food, you can’t even mention it.

Once she was in reception, I heaved a huge sigh of relief and started finding myself again. I had lost my identity completely in motherhood; since I am an all or nothing person this was inevitable. I didn’t even know what music or clothes I liked any more.

I think, much as I adore my child, life had no fun for me in the pre-school years. I don’t have the answers at all but this is my experience.

I should say I was…the desire did come back on it’s own

I've only skimmed the thread so apologies for that.

One positive- it seems when your wife does has sex with you, it's because she really wants to and she enjoys it. So I think you need to work out whether what you're asking is how to encourage her to want to have sex more often, or how to encourage her to have sex with you when she's not mad keen on the idea (and by this second one I'm not talking about coercion or sex without consent but that thing which is common in LTRs, where you're not desperate for a shag but perfectly happy to have one if the other person is keen).

The first- might be hormonal, might be tiredness, might be that she was having more sex than she naturally wanted early in your relationship for some reason (newness is exciting, she wanted to match your libido, she wanted to conceive her children?) and now she's settled back to her natural libido.

The second- this is trickier- I think any pressure is likely to put her right off. This is something on which people's views really differ- some people just think it's part of a normal relationship that you won't always be exactly as up for it as one another and so a bit of generosity is required, others find that idea completely horrifying. Sounds like your wife is in the second category.

How is the marriage generally? Is she happy? Any resentments knocking about?

One thing that kills sex is if the dynamic between a couple becomes parent-child which can happen.
Eg from the female perspective my DH “what’s for dinner” “how long do I boil cauliflower for” requiring step by step instructions yet he’s a high up manager at work so wtf….
Im sure it can happen both ways

Agreed , also says 'he helps' with child and house.

I definitely think parenthood affects sex between a couple. And, it is usually the mother who bears the brunt of all change.

It is much simpler than you think.

My husband and I have been together 22 years. We have 3 teenagers. Both of us have always had stressful full time jobs and a couple of activities that interest us as individuals. We have sex 2-3 times a week. We genuinely enjoy each other’s company. You know why?

Because he is in charge of laundry, hoovering, emptying the dishwasher, maintenance and garden and driving kids around. I do the shopping, cooking and general kondo type tidying up. We are fortunate enough to have help with a lovely lady that deeps clean the kitchen and bathrooms weekly.

It is easy. No stronger aphrodisiac than a man that truly HELPS!

@PrussianBlueVelvet I am very happy for you, but you come across as a bit arrogant and not very open-minded for implying that what works for you must necessarily be universal.
I really do not want to get into the whole division of tasks, because I am quite fed up with being called pompous and worse.

Even female posters have criticised the standard mumsnet attitude of "it's your fault because surely you don't do enough around the house and surely there cannot be anything else at play".

Here's the thing OP...most people, most of the time, desire a sexually fulling relationship, wish to express their sexuality and have another to accept their sexuality and welcome a sexual relationship with them. It's how most people are wired.

Unfortunately, all that doesn't mean that the same person can do that for you long term. A lot of posters talk about share of housework, child care etc. But I think what that really points to is a build up of resentment - that absolutely kills sexual desire for someone. Deep down they are angry with you.

Resentment can come from other places too - eg lack emotional support, feeling unseen or appreciated. But (and this is just my take) sometimes resentment toward someone can come from things which aren't really their fault at all! Feeling trapped in parenthood (esp motherhood), losing the free person you once were, feeling trapped in marriage and home life drudgery and limited horizons, losing dreams. A partner can be seen as the cause when they really aren't. That's where counselling can really help.

But what is crucial is that if you are just there, kind patient and in pain, you will grow resentment too. Worse than that, you slacken the tie between you that creates any sexual tension. Whenever you DW turns away, you move toward her.

I definitely suggest counselling- but that won't help unless you both change. For yourself you need to rediscover yourself too. Find out that you are attractive and capable and admirable and healthy and worthy of being loved. Get away for long spells on activities you enjoy -and encourage your DW to do the same. It may be painful to appear to grow separate lives, but at the risk of sounding contradictory, it might be the only thing that brings you back together.

Work on your own self improvement, get fit, join an activity, read, write, volunteer, and do some inner work. Because whether your marriage survives or not you are going to need this either way.
Good luck OP

But what happens when you do all this and more and still bugger all!
I mean does emptying the dishwasher even count🤣. That’s such a minor task as to not be worth mentioning. Like he makes cups of tea.
This myth that sex starts with the husband doing the dishes is total shite.
If she no longer wants to have sex with you there is no way to get it back.
You can jump through as many hoops as you like, your just embarrassing yourself.

This sounds awful, a healthy sex life shouldn't be this hard. You should both have wants and desires for eachother. It seems odd that she really enjoys it when it happens but that out of 365 days you only have sex about 5 of those. The intimacy and closeness sex brings is really important to couples in my opinion. The fact she won't even talk to you about it is strange too, how does she expect things to get better if she's unwilling to discuss it. I honestly don't know what to advise apart from you need to sit her down one final time and express how close you are to checking out on the relationship if this continues. Strictly or any other tv show shouldn't be coming before sex......that's ridiculous. I love my DH and love having sex with him often, i wouldn't want a relationship without regular sex and fulfillment. You have some hard decisions to make op.

This sounds awful, a healthy sex life shouldn't be this hard. You should both have wants and desires for eachother. It seems odd that she really enjoys it when it happens but that out of 365 days you only have sex about 5 of those. The intimacy and closeness sex brings is really important to couples in my opinion. The fact she won't even talk to you about it is strange too, how does she expect things to get better if she's unwilling to discuss it. I honestly don't know what to advise apart from you need to sit her down one final time and express how close you are to checking out on the relationship if this continues. Strictly or any other tv show shouldn't be coming before sex......that's ridiculous. I love my DH and love having sex with him often, i wouldn't want a relationship without regular sex and fulfillment. You have some hard decisions to make op.

Sounds very transactional.

As the standard Mumsnet response is "do more housework" it is always worth comparing this to romantic fiction that women choose to read. The sexy man can be the gardener/handy man/(insert a man doing an activity that involves displaying physical strength), strangely not often a male cleaner who comes around to do the laundry and hovering...

Based upon the fantasy that women choose to spend money on, housework issues can give rise to "negative" issues so eliminating that could reduce a negative but it is not a route to a "positive" increase.