How to cope with an almost sexless marriage? Can counselling really help?

[LosingIt2022]

Hoping this is the most appropriate subforum.
I'm looking for some advice because the lack of sex life is putting a huge strain on our relationship.
I want to propose some form of couples therapy / counselling because this is the only way I can think of to make her understand how important this is to me; I do not expect miracles but I do not want to leave any stones unturned.
If nothing changes, I would at least like to understand if there are some coping strategies to help me not lose my sanity - I am banging my head against the wall while dying inside and she doesn't seem to take notice.

What are your experiences?
Is there really a solution for couples whose sex drives change so much over time?

The story:

I'm male, my wife and I are both mid 30s, we have 2 kids.

I have always had a higher sex drive but, while mine has remained constant, hers has been constantly plummeting.

It used to be about once a week, I imagined it would have become less frequent, but I never imagined once every 2-3 months.

When it happens, she gets really lost in the moment, which is amazing, but it has simply moved at the very bottom of her priority list: it will only happen if she's not too tired, if she has already finished her favourite TV series, if that night her best friend doesn't call her to rant about her new life as a divorcee, etc etc.

Any attempt at experimenting has been shot down mercilessly: new lingerie makes her feel under pressure, toys are not her thing.

I have tried to plan and set some time for ourselves in advance, but she says this makes her feel too much pressure.

Any attempt at communicating is very hard because she just does not want to talk about these things; she was brought up in a very conservative, not religious but Jane-Austen-like environment.

I asked if she would ever be willing to, well, tease me; there are times when she wants to cuddle and nothing more, is that really that different? Apparently for her yes, she was horrified at the idea.

I got really, really cross because a couple of weeks ago she told me in the morning that she would have actually wanted me but I was in the loft, working. Why didn't you call me? So I should just wait in bed for you to finish your TV series, on the off chance that once in a blue moon you might actually want me, but there can be no communication or planning?

I have lost count of the number of times I told her how I feel rejected and unimportant, and how I feel less important than a stupid TV series. It just doesn't register, it's as if I were speaking a different language.

There are lots of other things in the relationship which work really well, and they are a huge reason why I fancy her so much, but this remains a big problem.
I often wonder: had I known it would have ended up like this, would I have married this person and had 2 kids?

@LosingIt2022 if you think being at weekend away is enough for her to recover from tiredness (so she should have sex with you), I have news for you. It’s NOT.

The fact you feel great and have more energy during a weekend away just means you aren’t that tired in the first place.

And it only took four replies before the ‘how much housework do you do’ response.

Yes you really do remind me of him. Maybe the rest of your relationship is perfect, but in relation to this issue you are him all over. You sound so angry and like you hate her in your posts. I already told you what I thought would help - get counselling, but you need to be open to the fact that she may see some of this issue as your fault, that she might want different things to you. This isn't a problem for her to fix to meet your needs - you need to accept that.

Mindreading is not my thing.

This is a hugely common issue in long-term relationships with children, and reading your list of what you handle whilst working FT just makes me think of what ‘mental load’ your wife might be handling whilst working FT that you’re unaware of, and she perhaps cannot fully express to you. You don’t mention anything on your list (apart from sorting nanny’s wages) that is child-related in terms of their ‘stuff’ - school, activities, friendships, whatever - and holding all this in our heads is a huge thing for women. Are you familiar with the concept of the mental load? If not, Google it.

I’m not saying it’s your fault. But communication is definitely the key to this all and you sound willing to try to understand even though you’re also frustrated at the idea it might be considered your fault (that’s human).

I agree. If she doesn't want to do counselling the OP should go alone and work on himself. And maybe she would be more receptive to couples counselling if she saw him doing it alone.

I made no comment on which way it was flowing just that contempt is a big issue in relationships. I have seen evidence of it in a lot of posts on this thread and do wonder how people can think they have functional relationships whilst being so contemptuous of their partners.

In terms of toys and clothing - I wouldn't presume to know what goes on in all men's heads about these things but I suspect it is something they have seen or read (plenty of internet articles on using these to improve your sexlife) and they are trying to induce change to see if that will improve the situation that is making them unhappy. This is a pretty typical human response.

At the heart of it all is poor communication that builds resentment, distrust, lack of safety and contempt. Some couples can work it out themselves but many do need support to get the right tools to have that good communication. Sometimes getting that clarity can mean a realisation that the relationship is not viable anymore.

What I learnt out of my own situation is that, for my partner, sex is an important part of him feeling loved and valued in a relationship and also that he is crap at communicating with me about how things are really making him feel. I also believe he learnt that I need more than just sex to feel loved and wanted in a relationship and that he needs to meet my needs as well (at least his actions seem to indicate that). Neither of us intentionally set out to hurt each other but it did become a vicious circle that needed outside support to break.

You're not taking anything on board, you're just repeating the same stuff again.

Is it the same in your relationship? I bet your wife is telling you a lot about her needs, but if needs are not prefixed by sexual, you are discounting it.

You do come across as sex obsessed. What would your wife's reaction be if you said that you should ban sex for 6 months? You could try to reconnect with each other without your sexual frustration looming over everything.

Sorry was trying to quote @Velvian

I think your wife is probably sex obsessed too BTW, just in a different way. I would bet that it is constantly in the back of her mind while she is watching those TV programmes.

Yes, good suggestion. I think that individual counselling can be helpful in a lot of situations. However, the purpose of that counselling is to help the individual deal with a negative situation and a simple solution to that is to remove yourself from that situation and so OP would need to be clear with any therapist what they wanted from their sessions as getting the individual to a better place may not be the same as saving the relationship.

Do you actually spend time together as a couple op? The whole her watching telly after the kids go to bed and you go up to the loft to finish work sounds so lonely. She may well feel emotionally abandoned regardless of how much life admin you are doing or how supportive you feel you are being with household stuff. Have you tried finding a programme that you could suggest you might both watch together? Cuddle up on the sofa and watch together with a glass of wine each, but with no expectation on your part that it’ll lead to sex, and make sure she knows that. Just say you miss her and want to spend some time close to her in the evenings

@LosingIt2022
You are coming across as very defensive on here, which is perhaps causing people to turn against you. People can only give you advice on what you can change about yourself, not how your wife should change. It doesn't mean everyone is blaming, it just means that your actions are the only thing available to work with here.

Nobody knows the ins and outs of your relationship, so not all of the advice will be relevant. My DP is fundamentally selfish and not emotionally supportive, so I find it intimacy very difficult. DP wants sex all the time and I only want it when I feel safe and relaxed. This leads to periods of time where my emotional needs are not being met but I feel under huge amounts of pressure to "perform" sexually or DP will become unliveable. This is not a turn on....and do the cycle continues. I become more and more uptight and less able to let go / lose myself in the moment.
This was not always the case. 15 years ago we were at it like rabbits. We had less worries, less responsibility and life hadn't dealt us any bad hands back then. I felt happy and safe, DP had never been called upon to support me emotionally and everything was about having fun. With every difficult time we've faced that has eroded, leaving us where we are today.
We still love each other very much and we are working on it. Things are improving as we remember what attracted us to each other in the first place. We do whatever we can to relax and laugh together and when we go, the sex is great.

This might not be your relationship experience, I can only share mine. Even if the circumstances are not the same, maybe you could take something from this?
Think back to when things were good. What was different about life? What was different about your wife? What was different about you? Is there one thing you can draw on? Did you just laugh more? Did you share more? Did you used to watch the TV with your wife and share jokes about it? Did you get away a bit more? There is a spark somewhere and if you can try to prioritise whatever it is that will help.

All I can contribute is things that put me off in a previous relationship.

1. didn’t like my body, hated being touch where there were ‘fat bits’ etc, I hated it.
2. it felt never ending and there was no ‘quickly’ which I actually enjoy, he admitted he was actively trying to make ‘other stuff’ last as long as possible , I’m talking 2 hours of me doing foreplay
3. nothing in it for me, I didn’t feel sexy, I didn’t get were I needed to go or feel any better being with him then being myself for any of it
4. it all centred around him and went on and on and I stared to dread it.

i think so much of it is tied to how a woman feels in herself and also sadly for some women the sexual attraction diminishes when there’s secure commitment, that’s often why after an affair a woman often engages in what’s called hysterical bonding’ where her sex drive goes through the roof for her partner who has just cheated on her as she’s trying to re-bond with them. I read so much on it all at the time trying to figure out what was wrong and that’s the research and thoughts I found on it all at the time.

I don’t know if I’d make the effort as much with my partner if I though he wouldn’t bother but I don’t want to lose him and I know he would bother so I do make the effort and I’m much happier for it. Once I push past that ‘I can’t be bothered’ I’m always glad I did but if I wasn’t worried it would ruin our relationship I could easily slip into ‘tomorrow, we’ll do it next week etc’.

I don’t know what the answer is but she does need to know you can’t live like that anymore and that it’s a dealbreaker for you.

I wonder if she feels under pressure? Working fulltime looking after 2 kids is hard going. Sometimes it can feel like everybody wants you! Watching tv is her wind down and time to herself.

Counselling is probably a good idea.

Hi OP, I was you when I first joined MN, I learnt a lot from other posters, so strongly recommend taking all views on board.

For what it is worth, nothing helped for me. I'm now in a fully sexless marriage, no intimacy or communication other than about day to day stuff. We are co-parenting well though.

So try anything suggested, but don't hold out too much hope.

@LosingIt2022
I have just read your update re: suggesting counselling to your wife without pressuring her into having sex. The first problem that you list is sex, then communication. I wouldn't lead with sex as the issue. In fact, I think you need to stop seeing sex as the issue. The issue is communication, intimacy and both of your needs being met within the relationship. Lack of sex life is a symptom of these problems. I think it's likely your wife will shut down and not listen any further if you say that sex us the problem, she likely feels that there is a different problem in the relationship which is more pressing.

I agree with the pps who have said about your anger over this being very off-putting. It's actually setting off anxiety in me so god knows what it feels like in real life.

I can understand you are frustrated but you don't seem to like your wife particularly. You fancy her, but eat else?

It does sound like she uses the TV for demand avoidance.

Maybe agree no sex at all for a couple of months, in which you both work on building a loving connection back up by dating, spending time together, being kind to each other, (but do not have sex on the agenda at all). After that, see where you are.

Focus in the issue behind the lack of sex drive - building back intimacy rather than ‘’we need to have sex more”. Stop talking about sex and think about intimacy with no expectation at all. Do something nice for her, spend quality time together and make her feel valued. That’s what would work for me

I haven't read the full thread, will come back later to do that. Our situation is very very similar to yours, I am the wife in this scenario. I have practically no desire to have sex. Our kids are young, constantly present and I am exhausted. My sex drive has never been particularly high and sex just isn't important to me. It is categorically no reflection on how I feel about my DH, I still absolutely love him to pieces.

It's very hard, I think particularly as a woman, to have sex when you dont really want to. We are always told never to do that. It's also really, really hard to make yourself want it when you simply don't. Having small children around for me is a complete mood killer. I hate the way it makes my DH feel and I wish I knew how to fix it. What I'm trying to say is please don't assume TV is more important to your wife than you are, it's almost certainly more complicated than that.

You're being weird about the tv. It's a silly argument. She probably does plan to have sex with you but in that moment, after dinner etc she just wants to relax a bit and tiredness sets in. Stop being so weird.

Haven’t read the whole thread yet so apologies but if when it happens “she gets lost in the moment” … could she be faking it?

My experience regarding lack of sex drive in my marriage - my ex was abusive, immature, selfish, his hygiene was not great AND he was crap in bed - obviously I could not have any drive

I can’t see why a woman would no want good sex with a safe partner - but granted haven’t read the thread

I often wonder: had I known it would have ended up like this, would I have married this person and had 2 kids?

It’s quite likely to have ended up in a similar place had you married someone else and had 2 kids. The issue is not specific to your wife.

People think that because it is what is pushed endlessly by so called therapists in the media. The Guardian woman, for example, seems to think that the nuclear holocaust could be averted if Putins wife dressed up as a sexy maid or a joke policewoman. So I’m not surprised that you thought it might be an answer.

I'm sorry the grumpy and resentful have decided to take out their crossness on you; you sound pretty desperate and you deserve a better response, whether or not PP think that your behaviour has contributed to your situation.

What is clear is that your wife seems to be displaying classic avoidance symptoms, why, I don’t know. Not wanting to discuss sex, though, is not the same as not wanting to do it. I guess that the suggestion of talking to someone in real life is the only way forward, if you can persuade her to agree. Anyway, I wish you a good outcome.

OP, I’ve just read an interesting article which might be relevant to your situation…

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/dec/31/how-can-you-be-the-best-parent-lover-friend-citizen

scroll down to the section called “a good partner and lover”

The last paragraph might give you a different perspective because you seem a bit obsessed with her having great sex when it does happen. The author (a couples therapist) suggests this isn’t always the best way of looking at it

“Men often speak about feeling they have to perform – but when you talk about performance, you lose touch with yourself and your partner; you’re relating to some external standard that takes you outside your relationship. If you can be less goal-oriented in your lovemaking, you might begin to enjoy all the aspects of being intimate. You can have an experience that’s not all about you and your partner having mind-blowing orgasms, but about being together in a total sense, seeing each other in the most intimate way – being vulnerable and playful because you feel safe and happy. That’s not focused on the goal of having great sex, but great sex may well be the outcome.”

The fact that you ask for sex is really off putting. And now it's got to a stage she doesn't want to. You're biggest problem is communication not sex