I know it's the most boring question - but is it always best to LTB?

[TinselTinselTinsel]

A tale as old as time. DH has become v annoying, small minded, can be mean in arguments. Daily low level lack of respect.

Can be v loving. Is good with kids mostly. Funny.

I don't have respect for him. He chats a load of nonsense these days. Mansplains everything. Talks at me. I don't hate spending time with him weirdly but I know if it wasn't for kids I'd have gone ages ago.

I promised 2023 is the year to leave. I've watched a couple of films/TV recently which feature divorce (including I Hate Suzie which would put anyone off). And basically I've got scared

My husband is alright but I know 100% he would HATE me for leaving and see it as me destroying him and he would do everything he could to make it as painful as possible. Every pick up, every weekend, every school play - he would make as difficult as possible. I am also the breadwinner and he would get every penny he could despite me doing 90% of housework and admin etc. He has quite poor MH sometimes and I hate to think how messy it could all get.

Anyway. Sorry for the ramble. I know people say it's always better to leave but really? Low level irritation is better than a decade of absolute awfulness which the DC would be stuck in the middle of their whole childhood?(DC are 2 and 3)??

Any advice or stories would be so appreciated

X

No not to live with a man, I'll never live with one again. But women don't have to stay single.

I think the answer to your question is that every situation is different. Personally, it took me 4 years from recognizing he was abusive and I couldn't change his behaviour, only he could. On one hand it was an awful process, (went to three couples counselors waste of time/money/ they supported his abusive behaviour), and I put in lots of boundaries but nothing had an impact on his behaviour. On the plus side, he agreed we needed to end the marriage as 'we weren't meeting each other's needs' and now he knows my boundaries do mean something because he learned that when we were together. I know other women who have managed to more intentionally get their ex-husbands to initiate the separation, and I think it can help avoid intense vindictive retaliation. But some of these men are so chronically self-centered that nothing you do will mitigate their vindictive retaliation. Sorry you are in this situation. I have been separated for over a year and it is much better not having to tolerate him on a daily basis and I have a MUCH better time with my children now we are not tiptoe-ing around him. On the downside I feel guilty I can't protect them when the are with him but I know the have at least one home where they can relax. I've concluded there just isn't a perfect outcome from my horrible situation, but being separated is the best possible outcome for me and my children. I think I will be in a much better place in 2-3 years compared to how I would have been if I had stayed with him.

I highly recommend Torna Pitman of Talking Wise who understands how things work with the kind of dynamic you are describing, not necessarily abusive but very unequal. If you get clear about what is going on it may help prevent the erosion of your well-being if you choose to stay.

I don't think my posts are depressing. OP asked for opinions about breaking up a marriage. My own personal opinion, having broken up a marriage and now probably being older than a lot of the people posting on here, is that divorce is horrendous and is best left for situations where there really is no alternative. There's nothing martyrish about that. We do only get one life - but if you leave a marriage, you might meet someone else and experience "love, desire, attraction" - but you equally might not. You might be looking down the barrel of a lonely old age when the alternative would be companionship and mild irritation.

I'm not encouraging any woman to do anything at all. I'm merely saying that divorce is not always the only or the best answer to mild to moderate dissatisfaction within a marriage. I'm not just talking about women, either. I would say the same to a man who posed the question which the OP posed.

What I do know is that there is no easy one-size-fits all answer to this.

I'll give an example of the kind of thing I mean by irritation...

Last night he described a female journalist as "creaming her knickers". I told him that was gross. He laughed. We moved on

There is no abuse there, no drama, kids didn't hear but he says stuff like that all the time and I don't want to be with a man like that. Also he constantly tells me I'm doing things wrong...latest example going through and criticising all the present wrapping despite not him doing any himself

Not huge stuff. Just lots of small stuff that i hate. I'm not scared of him. I tell him to f off. But its all jokey. I have tried on several occasions to talk more seriously and he's getx very very upset and also tells me I'm creating drama

Anyway...I can just tolerate the comments and then honestly somehow rest of the time we do get on. We can have a laugh. We are both v affectionate with the kids

I just know how awful it would be if I left. I know in my heart I need to leave but I honestly think life might be worse for me and the kids. So I wonder if pragmatism is ever the best way?

I could live on my salary alone but I think I would lose our home and of course 50% of kids. He's good with them but he's always got me about

Ahhhhh so bloody hard.

and by the way meeting another man ain't on the agenda. Can't think of anything worse!! Ha ha

Thanks for all the help!

X

I couldn’t stand living like that, op. You are allowed to count your own life in the equation, not just your kids.

@HornyHandedSonOfTroll I do tend to agree divorce should be last resort. I know it would be awful for my kids because his hatred of me would be so intense. But I'm only in my 30s. It's an awful long time to live with a bloke you find often annoying and sometimes downright idiotic.

Last night he described a female journalist as "creaming her knickers". I told him that was gross. He laughed. We moved on

This is gross but is it just that he expresses himself poorly? Or is it his actual attitude? If it’s the first one, can you just explain why it bothers you. If it’s the later, more of an issue.

That comment about the journalist speaks of deep seated misogyny. Is it a fairly typical example? Because I couldn't live with my children hearing that from someone who is supposed to be a role model.

I am in my early 30s and divorcing. My kids were 4 and 1 when we split, now 4 and 7. My advice - you KNOW in your gut when you've tried everything, and nothing is changing. You do not have to feel guilty for putting your happiness and wellbeing first; my realisation was that I was modelling a toxic, unhealthy marriage to my kids was a driver for finally giving me the courage to tell him I wanted a divorce. I couldn't keep showing them it was okay to accept behaviour that I was doing. Better my kids have a happy, healthy mum and a proper example of love in their lives than two miserable parents together. I am glad I did it whilst they were so little. It would have felt a lot harder years later.

I was also made to believe I couldn't do it financially (lower earner etc) but there are always options. Don't believe the lie that you have no options. If everything else is exhausted, divorce is a way out, and a solution. It's not to say it is not hard, but I knew that staying would be the harder, more harmful option for us all. People show you who they are - believe them. If he's not all in to save your marriage, you're flogging a dead horse. It took me 6 years of immense pain, betrayal, emotional and financial abuse to finally see that.

Just seen your other thread about him leaving your baby on his own while he was playing video games so he’s not good with the kids unless that’s a one off!

For me an unhealthy relationship is like passive smoking. If you're smoking in the house constantly all the time that's harming the children. Even if you try to keep it out of their view or whatever, it's impossible. It might be a small harm, but it's constant.

If you stopped smoking (split up) then the house becomes smoke-free. At the times that you have a contact with the ex and it's toxic again, that's a bit like having them in the car while someone is chain-smoking. Probably more harmful than the low-level passive smoking, but it's only some of the time. Overall they have plenty of fresh air to clear out their lungs and they aren't learning that smoke smell is normal.

Also, it gives them a chance to see two different "norms". They are learning from you and H how relationships work and how marriage is and what it's like to be safe at home. If you are living separately, then they will still experience his norm, but you have a chance to show them a different norm, without belittling, without the woman doing 90% of the work (well, OK, this is difficult if you don't get a new partner) where they truly are safe and there is none of that toxic stuff happening.

Agree with this entirely - great analogy.

Also you see it on here all the time, women saying how they thought the kids were unaffected by the relationship etc. Then it was only after they split from their partner and the initial reaction from the kids dies down they realised the effect it had been having.

God - yeah @AChristmasCaro that wasn't great. Also he gave the little one a couple of crackers for breakfast this morning rather than get up and make him breakfast (I was dealing with older boy who had woken up upset from a nightmare(

I think he's an arse. He's funny, fun, he is loyal, but he's an arse. He is lazy and small minded - his views of women, he world seem more and more difficult to accept

I promised I would leave in 2023 but I saw some silly Xmas film and it was a divorced dad taking his son for a Chinese on christmas day and they just sat in silence and I got an overwhelming sense of guilt of making my kids lives much more difficult. He wouldn't step up, he would be embittered. I know that's not a good reason to stay but I feel so bad foe exposing my kids to that without me there

I feel so bad foe exposing my kids to that without me there

Honestly Op, what makes you think your children won’t be exposed to that behaviour by staying??? It would be worse, they will be learning from him than being an arse to the woman in the relationship is natural and normal.

At least they won’t have him putting them down 24/7. If he is really so careless, you may end up having them all the time anyway and that is not necessarily a terrible thing.

I think you need a space to really tell him how bad things are from your POV. That could be counselling, time away, him moving out temporarily, even someone acting as a mediator in a conversation. You likely won't change him, however giving him the chance to change should reduce his bitterness. I can see how he would be incredibly bitter if in his eyes everything is OK.

I'm not saying don't leave, he doesn't sound like an easy person to live with. I was in a similar (not quite as extreme as you) state when my first child was 2. I found fault with everything DH did and it was a compounding cycle. Some frank conversations combined with him being home during covid opened his eyes to the reality of his behaviour. He's a lot better now, but he wanted to change.

In my experience, he won’t get any better. And as the kids get older they will learn this is what a marriage is. You can drag him kicking and screaming though life - being lazy, a lacklustre parent and constantly critical while he contributes so much less. Or you can be free of that 24/7.

Neither option is amazing, but at least one doesn’t have you living this way for all that time and at least you can create a lovely happy non critical space for you and the kids when he isn’t there. If he’s that rubbish and lazy as a person I doubt he’d want 50/50 anyway.

I got an overwhelming sense of guilt of making my kids lives much more difficult
from a movie! don't trust movies OP!

My mum was just like you, tolerating her husband through gritted teeth. I particularly noticed it as a teenager, when she let slip that she didn't want to break up the family.

I'm now in my 60s. He died a few months ago. Mum can barely walk, so hardly has the chance to make the most of her newfound freedom.

Over the years we've had to go through the charade of "celebrating" their 50th, 60th, and 70th wedding anniversaries.

As the child in this situation, I can't tell you what a complete headfuck it is and how it influenced the poor relationship choices that blighted my life for decades.

You can't guarantee it will stay at low level irritation though. Generally tolerance gets worn away.

Honestly your kids are toddlers, if you split now they won't even remember you being together .Far better than putting them through it later on.

Sorry just realised I should make it clear that "her husband" was also my dad... and that part of the headfuck is that I wish I could wave a wand and have them split up half a century ago so that they might each have found true happiness instead of the painful pretence that I was brought up to think of as -- if not love, exactly, then at least the best we can expect from a real-life relationship.

Films are not real. They are stories designed to make the most money. It's a commercial undertaking.

If you stay you cannot protect them from the consequences of living full time in this environment with no safe haven. From the consequences of being given this as their model of normal relationships. From the damage to their self esteem when he treats them the same way as they grow up and they don't understand why they can never be enough for him to love them.

If you leave they have a safe haven where none of this happens. No eggshells to walk on to avoid dad's criticism. No put downs to listen to.

The children already exist and this is who he is. There is only choosing the least bad option - there is no version where it's a happy magical ending that's only bad for you.

It's normal to catastrophise when you're afraid. But if you were really able to predict the future as accurately as you claim you wouldn't be in the current situation. You're not seeing the future, you're seeing your fears.

It depends if things could change realistically for the better. Do you think couples counselling could help stuff, OP? Do you think your husband has changed a lot since you first met him, what made you marry him? - was he ever right for you? or do you think you were pushing stuff away that you don’t like about him that is obvious now?

Personally, if you have that total clarity that he isn‘t right for you and nothing can change that then I think that I would leave in your position. You sound as though you have the practical nous to manage.

My DSIS left her then DH with kids of a similar age, yes it was very hard but, several years on, she has a good life that she would not have had if she had stayed - she can look towards a future she actually embraces. She went through a lot of the petty bitterness you describe as fearing but it waned over time and her kids are fine, both her and her ex have moved on.

Divorce can be difficult and unpleasant, yes.

Not divorcing, and saddling your children with the burden of knowing they were the reason you had an unhappy life, can also be difficult and unpleasant.

I really like PP's smoking analogy. That sums it up perfectly.

Mmph. That wasn't clear enough- obviously your children aren't the cause of your unhappiness.

Staying 'for their sake'- that's the burden.

👏

Bloody hell @tickticksnoozeIt's normal to catastrophise when you're afraid. But if you were really able to predict the future as accurately as you claim you wouldn't be in the current situation. You're not seeing the future, you're seeing your fears

That one hit where it hurts. Yeah - you're right. I didn't predict this at all. I would count myself a feminist 100% and yet here I am trying to accept life spent with a bloke who talks about 'beta males' and often talks about women 'looking mad', 'harping on' etc - says women can't be taken seriously if they wear a lot of make-up etc. It's become a joke between us to make it less horrible but I don't really like who he is.