DW can't stand DD

[fredthemed]

Not sure what to do. DW is really nasty to 11yr old DD. DD does misbehave. DW thinks DD is exceptionally bad and has "betrayed her trust too many times". DW admitted she would be happier if DD left. She claims she loves DD but evidences this by saying she buys her nice clothes etc. DD said she wants to go far away from her mum. But she doesnt want to leave her younger sister who gets on fine with DW. DD is imo a fairly normal girl with a strong tendency towards play and fun and games and a hatred of hard work. DW is very strict about work and hates mindless and messy play. I get on ok with DW but find it very difficult living with the shouting and crying. DW things she has done nothing wrong and anyone would act the same as her. She would never accept parenting advice or therapy.

FWIW I scored 10/10 on the ACE questionnaire

I lied all the time to my mother. If I told her the truth she would say it was a lie and I learned to tell her what she wanted to hear.

I see my own mother in your wife.

Out of interest why is your dw overseeing homework at 11 years old.

Help if it is needed but overseeing at 11 years old is actually doing more harm than good. It is just masking things like dyslexia

My mother would oversee my homework at 11 years old. I was made to put my mistakes right before I handed my homework in.
I would spend hours doing homework because it wasn’t right or my mind was a blank.

Left up to me I would have more than likely

been tested for dyslexia and maybe even adhd but my mothers insistence to correct my mistakes masked my issues and ruined my life.

I was in my late 40’s when I found out I had dyslexia and late 50s when I was diagnosed with adhd.

Your dw needs to understand that failing at homework can be a good thing because it can flag things like dyslexia, dysgraphia, discalculia, adhd. Finding out now is better than finding out when she is in her 40s or 50s

How odd. I wonder what the children's side of the story is.

I have only read @fredthemed comments so far.

DD sounds like a normal 11yo to me, & she has significant behaviour over development issues outside the home, e.g. friends, family & school, then the issue is obviously at home.

For your DW, she has no reason to assume that your 11yo DD would be as easy to parent as your older DD.

Punishment over encouragement where a child does not share preferences or preferred behaviours is not going to help, & to withhold eating with family let alone food is a massive red flag to me. At a fundamental level, rejection by mother for being her own self or not to standard is cruel & counter-productive.

Soon your DD may play out her distress or absent herself from home & this is more of a risk as she rapidly approaches puberty when a girl needs to accept her womanhood & a loving supportive mother makes a difference.

@fredthemed I suggest that you consider speaking with your GP in confidence about the family dynamics, it may be that local family services offer parenting support, particularly for your DW who seems rigid & unforgiving in her approach, & the GP may refer you. At least, make the GP aware.

If not the GP, then consider approaching pastoral care/safeguarding lead at your DD’s school. It will help for them to be aware that your DD is harshly judged & discouraged at home.

Early intervention & support makes a difference.

DW means dear wife, I'm not sure why you are questioning this?

It's possible to both be dyslexic (for example) and be a supportive poster

Why would you assume any advice on MN is professional advice, it's social media not a CAB webchat

‘& she has NO significant behaviour OR development issues outside the home, e.g. friends, family & school, then the issue is obviously at home.’

Typos!

I wonder if Fred's coming back.
He may be busy, but most OP's with a problem this big are keener to check in for support ...

He’s probably reading through the responses and trying to process things.

I am concerned that this may be down to a mix of parenting styles with teenagerness and ‘playing your parents’thrown in. Only you know if your wife is an abuser or simply a strict Parent. You clearly both have different parenting styles. Either way, their relationship doesn’t sound healthy. You don’t sound to have a strong loving relationship with your wife, so you could set up a separate home with your youngest daughter, where she can see her mum when she wants but get away from her when she wants. Also where your other daughter can stay if she wants. If you aren’t prepared to leave your wife can you arrange respite for your daughter by her staying with grandparents/ relatives for part of the week? Or if you can afford it and she wants, consider a local flexiboarding school, so she can stay away from home several nights a week if she wants. Either way your wife and daughter probably need more space away from each other.

I'll keep it short - your family needs some kind of therapy - all of you. Your DD is clearly acting out on some kind of disordered family dynamic and is being scapegoated. She may also need a separate assessment to see if she is possibly DSD or ADD. But your wife needs to back off on the criticism and you need to step up and stop her.

Or if you can afford it and she wants, consider a local flexiboarding school, so she can stay away from home several nights a week if she wants.

Yeah because sending her away while the rest of her family continue to live together won't be hugely damaging to this poor girl.

Other parent abusing you and even withholding food? Well I won't leave your abuser but off you pop to a 'flexiboarding school' a few nights a week so she doesn't have to deal with seeing you, our child, so often.

JFC.

Only you know if your wife is an abuser or simply a strict Parent.

FFS

It's not strict parenting to loudly wish your 11 year old child would be taken away.
It's not strict parenting to refuse them meals, as punishment.
It's CHILD ABUSE. No ifs or buts.

What makes you think he'd get custody? It's not so easy for fathers to leave with their children.

Sure, don't challenge the domestic abuser.
Just keep getting on ok with her. Don't rock the boat.
Send your child away in preference to challenging the person who is making her life miserable.

@Untitledsquatboulder with the things his wife has been allegedly doing to her child? She's old enough to tell the courts what happens to her at the hands of her mother. If he stays there with his children, he's as guilty of abuse as she is.

Yeah because sending her away while the rest of her family continue to live together won't be hugely damaging to this poor girl.

Agree, it'll be hugely damaging. It'll combine losing her family bonds with having to live out of a suitcase. Been there, done that and it's shit.

This is why he needs to involve school, GP, therapists & SS.
So he has a record of the facts of their family situation, & how DD bears the brunt of it.
So that it can be plainly seen that DD should NOT be made to live with her mother.

In situations where children have been murdered by their parents there is often other children in the family who are treated completely normally or even very well by the parent/parents. One child is scapegoated and the other children are often encouraged or manipulate to mistreat the child and do in fear of being treated the same. I'm not saying your wife will murder your daughter but there is many many children and families who have this dysfunctional behaviour and you don't hear about it as the child isn't murdered and it sounds like your wife is behaving in this toxic manner. I'm sure it would only be a certain amount of time before the youngest child is roped in to the mistreatment along with the eldest.

You can go google the scapegoated child in a family and find multiple articles. I think you REALLY need to start making plans to leave your wife and take your child in to a safe, loived environment. This will likely affect her for life now but I suggest you get her therapy to make her understand she has not done anything wrong and her mother is rhe problem. Poor kid will likely now grow up with a lifetime of self esteem issues but you can try minimise it by leaving and giving her a safe environment to grow up in now.

It's hardly odd! I don't think the OP is giving us the whole story.

U-huh.

And when a female OP posts about her abusive H giving her & her kids shit, do you cast aspersions on her, & demand "the whole story"?

I suspect we won't get any more background anyway, as Fred may not be coming back.

Withholding food is neglectful and abusive. You need to leave to protect your DD’s mental health.

Of course. Withholding food isn’t ok. But.. I bet she isn’t actually doing that, I bet we are not getting the full picture here.

DW says to me is it okay to lie, to cheat, to steal all the time

This makes me think of Lem Sissay’s biography’My Name Is Why’ wherein he explains what it felt like to be accused of essentially being ‘bad’ because he lied and stole biscuits from his adoptive family.

Their expectations were ridiculously high. God help him he ended up going to live somewhere else.

Your wife’s expectations sound unrealistic.

What she is doing is cruel. What are the circumstances under which your child lies?
I think lots of children do to a greater or lesser extent. Maybe she thinks the consequences will be worse if she tells the truth .. maybe the lies just trip off her tongue. But really is it a hanging offence?

There are worse crimes. If she enjoyed hurting animals, for example, I would be worried there was “badness” there.

I think your wife is just irritated by your daughter and finds fault because she feels defensive.

Read the threads on here full of resentment because the on-looker parent did not get them away from the abusive one.

Be strong. Do the right thing. Get her out.

For all those (including me) saying fredthemed should leave and take the children with him. If his dw is anything like my own mother it will be very difficult as most of the stuff the dw does on the surface looks to an outsider and to those who haven’t been through this type of dynamic like being a loving mother.

It is a very odd dynamic and it isn’t as simple as a spouse punching a child or the other spouse in the face so you leave and have evidence of an injury. It is more subtle than that.

Your Dd lies so her mother punishes her for the lie.
Your Dd isn’t doing her homework to her mothers standard so her mothers gets angry because she isn’t spending sufficient time on things to get stuff right. On the face of it there isn’t anything untowards going on. But the abuse is more subtle and hidden behind closed doors.

I would say your Dd lies more than likely because she wants to fit in and not be shouted at and the truth would just illicit more screaming and punishments from her mother

Look at how your dw turned the argument that you somehow think lying is ok when you defend your Dd

fredthemed do you find that you are anticipating when your wife is going to kick off, do little things set her off and do you find you are walking on eggshells around her.

It isn’t just your Dd that is being abused, you all are.
Dw is coercively controlling all of you. Your eldest and youngest are being shown that if they don’t conform to your dw’s standards they will also go without food etc and also taking away your confidence to do anything to leave as your assuredness over the years has been eroded through abuse.

Abuse victims can take years to leave their abuser their confidence is so low.
Does she tell your Dd that she is stupid or incapable or lazy because if you tell someone these things over and over they begin to believe it.

I think you do need to leave but you need to be very careful and log every bit of evidence otherwise your wife will turn it all around on you and she will get custody of all your children and I fear for their lives.
You need to start shining a light on her behaviour. You all need therapy.

And if she ever says about getting your middle child to leave then maybe agree that she and her need to live separately and it is going to be easier if she goes

She would probably say she is a strict parent but a loving parent, helping with homework etc and all she gets in return is a child who lies and cheats and steals and she gives out appropriate punishments.

It will all sound perfectly reasonable.

The problem stems with the subtleness that she has trained her eldest and now her sister isn’t being compliant and no matter how hard this Dd tries she isn’t the same person as her sister but the mother isn’t acknowledging the differences and it is that tiny difference that makes this abuse and not normal parenting

Normal parenting acknowledges that a one size fits all isn’t going to work.

behaviour is a form of communication ….

your child is behaving this way in order to communicate how unhappy she is.
Your child is being made the scapegoat.
If you are too weak to step in, she will take it to the next level, hopefully get caught for stealing or something, police will then be involved, then SW. Your child will hopefully be removed from your wife’s care.

Please do the right thing! protect your child.