Dating when you’re not attractive

[TwentysixV]

I’ve always been single, never been asked out/very rarely get attention from men (and if I do it’s ones I just don’t find attractive). I’m just not very attractive. I’m a healthy weight, dress well and have ok teeth and hair so I don’t think I can improve my appearance. How did you find a partner if you’re not attractive? All my other single friends have men asking them out/showing interest without them even having to do anything and I never get any interest in real life. I don’t get many messages/matches on dating apps either and if I do they are from men I just don’t fancy at all (I know that’s shallow but I don’t see the point of dating a man I’m not attracted to). I don’t ever ask guys out either, but I feel like if they were interested they would ask me out/make a move and it would be clear they liked me. Anyone else relate, or gone from not getting any interest to being in a happy relationship with someone they are attracted to?

I am below average looking and I am married. I know plenty of below average looking, and larger women, size 20+, have no problem getting dates.
Men get attracted by looks, but other qualities matter too once they get to know the person.
Everyone has a type. A size 20 with crocked teeth can look cute to a very good looking guy. A friend who is very bubbly, size 20, below average looking, has a good looking first DH and currently with another good looking DP. Another friend who is size 22, a very kind and interesting person, looks good facially, always dates very good looking men. Her current DH treats her like a queen.

Get a hobby. Start leaving the house. Frequent places that men go to, like rugby club, a sports bar and martial art classes. When I was at uni, the class was heavily skewed towards male. Even the ugliest girl managed to get many interests from good looking guys. My good looking and fit friends who went to uni in a female dominated course and went on to work in a female dominated industry really struggle to get a date.
It is a numbers game.

I don't think Reddit is any sort of a guide. It's a freak show of extremes, in this case with the taint of incel culture. Rating anyone as a '5' or a '10' really isn't taking any account of that person as a person. You deserve what you get (ie, nothing) if you treat people that way.

Anyway, Big Data is against you on this one for the reasons I mentioned a few pages back. While I'm sure there are men who don't get dates because they are excluding women who might be interested in them, the real issue (according to big data) is that a lot of men don't get any dates. I don't see this as a moral issue: it is what it is. No one has a moral right to sex or relationships.

Anecdotally, there's a long-running dating thread in this very website. It's busy - the women on it are constantly sifting their 'irons' - the difficulty they have is working out who is best. It sounds exhausting. Compared to that, there is a dating thread on another, very male dominated, website. Much quieter - their issue is getting any dates at all. They're like a bunch of trainspotters on a branch line, getting excited at the distant rumble of what might be a train.

I think the relevance of all this to the OP is that there are a lot of men out there, she doesn't have to like any of them, but if she doesn't she just has to live with that.

Are you really equating being overweight/obese to being curvy? They are two completely different body types. Being overweight in this day and age is very much a flaw for both men and women when it comes to dating – whether you like it or not. A lot of men are attracted to curvy women in good shape, not obese ones.

The PPs friend is practising a double standard because she doesn’t find obesity attractive yet expects men to find her attractive regardless of her weight. People in shape tend to want to date others who are also in good shape.

However, double standards are not a crime when it comes to dating as you cannot help who or what you are attracted to. Short women want tall men all the time. Poor women want rich men all the time. Really unattractive overweight men want really attractive, slim women all the time...and so on. You cannot then moan when your own [unrealistic] standards limit your dating pool and make it harder for you to find someone you like.

This whole thread just highlights what is the biggest downfall of finding a date on an app. I’m married and I don’t use it, but I’d see this constantly and the one major thing a profile on a screen doesn’t produce for you is the CHEMISTRY!

Everyone is attractive to someone else. It doesn’t matter if you’re short, tall, fat, skinny, or a bucked tooth chinless wonder; when you spot someone in a room who makes you want to strike up a conversation it’s a whole different thing. So much of the essential three dimensional aspect of dating and meeting people has been lost by the dreaded swipe.

This chemistry and three dimensional experience is important in every aspect of our life, from friendships to rapport in working relationships. It’s essentially the same thing, and it’s still there in that aspect of our lives every day without much change. Online dating is a great idea and I totally get how things have evolved but that very essential aspect is what’s missing from it now. I think sadly so many people overlook perfect potential matches too easily because it’s based on the superficial; a few photos and some text. Not everyone takes a great photo or is very good with selling theirselves in text. I know 20 years ago it was a far slower process going out and meeting people on a night out (for example!) with no idea about who they were other than spending hours chatting and getting to know them face to face, but I think online dating has become such a challenge for many because the initial in person experience is no longer there in the way it was. Weirdos will always be there you can’t filter them out, but if that chemistry thing wasn’t such an important aspect of human attractiveness then people wouldn’t have affairs!

Humans have adapted to this screen stuff…but that’s not what we are as creatures.

OP, you list some lovely qualities. I’m sure you are attractive and someone will be lucky to meet you. I hope you have success soon and I wish you all the very best.

This is such an interesting angle to look at this equally interesting topic.

@Mumtobee89

Are you really equating being overweight/obese to being curvy

Where do you draw the line? Some men like obese women. Some like curvy women. Something that's 'a flaw' isn't a universal flaw: it's quite possible to be found attractive if you're obese, even if most people won't find you attractive. It's quite possible to be an obese woman with toned partner who finds her attractive. You're talking about averages, I'm talking about possibilities for individuals. It's possible to find a partner whatever shape you are. We know this because we see all kinds of combinations of couple. If you're ugly, you filter out those who prioritise looks. If you're overweight, you filter out those who don't fancy overweight people. If you're stupid, you filter out those who don't like stupid people. If someone filters you out altogether due to one aspect of you, then they're not compatible with you. It's not rocket science.

I’m on the lower end of average looks wise and I found that in my younger years I could get a boyfriend easily enough but when it came to actually settling down and getting married. I was never “the one” for these men. It’s actually depressing how many went on to marry the next woman they dated after me. Those men all said that I was lovely but the relationship was just missing that “spark”. I don’t seem to ignite the spark in anyone. I never will now.

Now I’m in my 50s, I’ve put on weight, let my hair go to grey, although it is styled. I don’t look terrible, but obviously I looked better in my 20s and 30s. No one really wanted me then so who’s going to want me now? But I feel a certain sense of relief that I’m not trying anymore. Life is great in all other areas so I focus on that. Taking dating/relationships completely off the table has been the best thing for my mental health.

www.goodreads.com/book/show/32328678-f-ck-him---nice-girls-always-finish-single

The guys must like you. This book is pretty good at explaining why guys would string someone for ages then marry the next girl. Guys are like 5yo who treat nice girls badly.

Going by the reviews I'd say that UnicornRidge's book is seriously one to avoid. It looks like one of those books that says that the right way to treat people is to manipulate them. No different to PUA books for men and perhaps written by one too.

Here's an anecdote that may be relevant to the OP if she's still around. Back when I was in my 20s I went out with a woman who was a socialist, a feminist and many other ists. She was pretty forceful, highly opinionated, and on occasion quite unpleasant to me. But what really drew me to her was that she knew exactly what she wanted, and she wanted me, which was good for my self-esteem. The relationship didn't work out and she was very upset when we broke up.

I then dated someone really nice. We went out for about a year. She was the loveliest, most giving person - but as time went on I felt the relationship simply wasn't developing because I had nothing to engage with. I didn't know what she wanted. She didn't have much self-confidence and nothing I could say or do could improve it, even though I knew hew at university where she was doing extremely well. I needed her not just to be nice, but to want things, not just deferring to me. On some occasions towards the end I was pretty unkind to her. Eventually I ended the relationship. I wanted to love her more, but I simply couldn't, and I realised I was never going to love her enough to take things further.

I thought of this because last night I was watching Ferris Beuller's Day Off of all things, and there's a scene towards the end of the film where he worries that his friend Cameron will "marry the first girl he lays" and "she'll treat him like shit because you can't respect someone who kisses your ass". I reckon there's some truth in that. If you think being nice means never asserting yourself in the relationship, it makes you harder to love - there's nothing for your partner to get hold of.

I'm a physically unattractive man and I've never had much interest at all from women. But despite that I've had some long term relationships and I got - and have stayed - married, despite everything. I reckon luck is a big part of that, but also I am genuinely nice, kind etc, but I worked out how to be present at the same time, and that's what counts.

@TomPinch Interesting and useful information from a man's perspective. Also appreciate the honesty in it.
I am curious (and if you don't mind to share) what made you decide to marry your now wife? If the 'ist girl' and the 'nice girl' appear later in your life, would you change your mind?
Thank you.

Well, I'm in my late 40s. I wouldn't date ist girl now because I'd be too set in my ways to adapt to hers, I suspect. I would date nice girl - and this time make it work - because I think I'm better now at accepting people as they are and appreciating what they have to offer. One of my better friends is quite similar to nice girl and my DW finds her annoying!

DW was my next relationship after nice girl, and in some ways she's a mixture of the two. She can be seriously scary and very opinionated but she has a good heart and a gentle side. Like the others, she is still really into me even after two decades of marriage.

Sorry, I should have said "like the others were"!

You’ve contradicted yourself there.

@HelsyQ No, not at all. A loving heart for others is not the same as just confidence.

@TomPinch really interesting perspective there. I'd consider myself a nice girl but how do you change that? I have a great job, loads of friends and am exactly that, nice! Im thoughtful in a relationship when i fit one in. But I often wonder if generally men want someone who treats em mean so they feel they have some sort of prize. In all honesty, I'd hate to be treated that way if the roles were reversed!

The term "nice girl" is misleading, as it suggests that the opposite would be a "nasty girl" who treats their partner badly. But from the sound of it, what TomPinch means is a person who doesn't set boundaries or say what they think or want in the relationship. That's not being "nice".

I meant it in the sense that 'nice' is often used to mean 'doormat', and 'assertive' is often used to mean nasty. But I think that both of those meanings are inaccurate. We all need boundaries and desires in a relationship and it's perfectly possible to be nice at the same time.

My issue with nice GF wasn't that she was nice, it was that she was so self-effacing that I couldn't work out what she wanted or what her tick.

@SheenaShoemaker I always ran a mile if anyone was nasty to me. I think it's a myth that men want to be treated badly. I don't think anyone wants to be messed around. But I'm an old fogey who never had to do OLD so I can't say how that affects complicates things. I think if you want to build a relationship with someone you have to offer yourself, and that does mean some level of assertiveness, if only just to be present.

I agree. Nice isn't a euphemism for being a bit of a limp lettuce with no direction, few opinions and so on though its often used that way.
Nice is a stand alone characteristic that means treating other people with respect and decency, avoiding pointless cruelty and so on, which you can be at the same time as assertive, opinionated and driven.
I think the idea of 'niceness' as a weak feminine trait that women must sacrifice to be interesting (to men) and strong is unfortunate.
Digressing, but I see it a lot on these boards, 'we don't need to be nice' after abandoning all respect and tearing shreds out of another poster; and it's really just a way to legitimise old fashioned nastiness.

Not everyone believes in attachment theory but I do think there isn't a universal rule here. Some people (men and women) are naturally attracted to people they are not securely attached to - whether that's innate is up for debate, but I don't think it's accurate to say all men want to chase women in a relationship.

@TomPinch i think it's just your post resonated with myself and an ex and he was very much you're so nice blah blah and asked me to let him do things for me. I certainly am strong minded but in a quiet way and often the men i meet, see me (i think) as a comfort blanket rather than something longer term. I could be wrong as have a few professing love but generally they arent who i want. On the flip side, I have friends you'd think are feisty and strong but men find them 'too much'!

If i look at the coupled up men in my social circle (dependent on cultural background), if non english, its normally is with them being with someone quiet/overly nice, if english, it's normally with someone much more forward whereas the men quiet are in the background.

Women are no different in what they're attracted to in a man. Perhaps even more so, women dont want a total pushover, e.g. the kind of niceness which is insipid. That level of 'nice' isn't so much a character trait as a pathology. Kindness, courtesy and respect should be a given but if a man acts like a doormat and never puts down boundaries for himself I think its a surefire pathway to the ick. I suspect all people respect those who respect themselves, its a sign of a deep confidence and its attractive.

@80s @5128gap Agree completely. The term "nice" translates as being a pushover and doormat here.
The book is telling women to be independent, happy, assertive, have a goal and not change their directions if there is a man out there who suggest them to do so. The positive energy is attractive. You are right to say that it does not apply to all men. Each person is different.

Some men, like DH, would be horrified to have someone completely dependent on him, like MIL. MIL is a soft, "nice", emotional and completely dependent on men, which drives FIL and DH away. It was an arranged marriage. FIL does not talk to MIL, even though they live in the same house.

Some men love being dependent on. A few guys at work have very dependent stay at home wives who call them multiple times a day. One married someone who cannot speak much English. He is fluent in her language. More than a decade later, she is still calling him to be the translator for anything in life, from taxi, plumber visit, to nursery. I used to sit next to him at work. He loves to help her. It works out well for them. They are happy.

I don’t ever ask guys out either, but I feel like if they were interested they would ask me out/make a move and it would be clear they liked me.

This does my nut in. You're interested and you're not making a move, so why are you expecting different from men?

I know of at least 3 relationships I missed out on in my early 20's because I was too shy to say anything and so was the woman.

My DP of the last 15 years was the one to get in touch with me first after we first met. (She wouldn't have been, but our mutual friend wouldn't give her my number when I asked, but did give her mine when she then asked him)

If you like someone, make a move. Worst they can say is no.

@fdgdfgdfgdfg

This does my nut in. You're interested and you're not making a move, so why are you expecting different from men

I agree. It's traditional for things to be this way, but unless women are happy to live by traditional stereotypes, they need to stop expecting men to. It's fine not to make a move, but it's not fine expecting that your reticence will be solved by someone else, because they have a penis.

It's not exactly a fine line between curvy and obese...
Disregarding your strawman argument, my point was clearly that people will struggle if they have dating standards higher than those they meet themselves. I am not disputing the fact that overweight/ugly people will filter out those who don't fancy them or that they can end up with those who are more attractive. That much is obvious.
I simply agreed that it is a double standard when those who are overweight/unattractive filter out/refuse to date others who are just as overweight/unattractive. Not rocket science indeed.

it is a double standard when those who are overweight/unattractive filter out/refuse to date others who are just as overweight/unattractive

It's not the case, but if you don't get it, not to worry. I'm sure the dating world will manage without your agreement, @Mumtobee89 , and some large people will continue to date some slender people, as has forever been the way of the world.