Where is ChopinandChampagne? LB update?

[gianfrancogorgonzola]

Really hope you see this C&C, I was following your other threads (name change a lot) and wanted to check in to see how you are.

🙏🏼

Please take this as a info green light to stop giving any of them gifts. After all you KNOW LB has plenty of money and gold etc stashed so step away from finding their choices.

Sure if you go in person by the DGC a few items of practical clothing wrapped up if any criticism is given can reply they are gifts surely you have the manners to accept gracefully?

I wonder what the divorce laws are in Ireland? I would be concerned everything is in his name and she has no claim on anything.

I think the only time you step in financially is if & when he leaves.

Invest your time and energy in your other DDs let DD1 face the consequences on her behaviour towards you.

Blimey, that call was nowhere near as "bad" as I had expected from your previous post. Absolutely well done for calling out their racism, if nothing else. I mean, sending a hamper including ham that's "too dry" is nearly as bad as race hate, obviously.... and well done on bringing up the book. Maybe she can get a glimmer of how her loved ones perceive her actions when she and LB aren't there to fling accusations back as some attempt at a defence. Although it sounds like self-awareness is not something either of them are blessed with, so that's a bit of a pipe dream.

The present is indeed built on the past. Who are we if not a collection of our experiences and memories? To say you need to deny these is to say you need to not be yourself. You can't forget hurt, you need to deal with it by facing it (or disengaging from it) which she seems unable to do and accept.

LB put you into a pressure cooker, tightened the lid and waited to see what would happen. This explosion was the inevitable result of trying to live within the extreme set of rules he had implicitly created.

You will be understandably upset that everything you've been trying to hold in for the sake of your DD has now come flying out, but there was no way for you to try and raise these concerns and criticisms in a less explosive way. It's done. I also don't think it's a coincidence that it happened after your Egypt trip, where you had a glimpse of normal life, normal interactions, and were allowed to just enjoy yourself and live your life.

The important thing now is not to keep revisiting the issue but let time and distance do some of the work. I seem to recall last time DD1 broke contact with you, you felt a sense of peace afterwards, because you were not constantly dealing with her emotional vampirism and having to be on your guard for every word and action.

I don't think this is a question of a few days. You need to let things settle and you deserve to spend some time on things which nourish you instead of drain you. Your other DDs, planning some holidays, visiting your new friends from the Egypt trip. And some quiet time free from the pair of them. All of this may help you build up the strength to endure an arms-length relationship with them.

I think @NatalieIsFreezing is completely right - a lot of this has boiled down to gifts, as a proxy for an actually functional relationship. No more gifts, nothing at all. Anything you would have given them, put the equivalent into a fund for DD1 to rebuild her life once she is free of LB (and of course do not let her know it exists).

Agree with the others. This needs time. Focus on yourself, put time and energy and your love into people who also care about you in return. Don’t send them anything, at all.

I can't begin to imagine how painful that must have been to experience but it sounds like a really positive thing to happen.

I've read all your threads and you've been treading on eggshells and being put through tests where the rules are constantly changing.

There's been no honesty in your interactions with them at all because it was too dangerous.
I'm not blaming you btw, that was the only way you felt you could maintain some connection but it wasn't working.

As others have said, at least now if there is any kind of relationship in the future, it's going to be a bit more honest and real. Sometimes you really do have to smash shit up to get to where you need to be.

I suspect the only chance is if she realises who LB really is and breaks free from him. I hope she does.
She's been manipulated and controlled so if she does have a realisation then she'll need you.
Still then, it must be in a safe and healthy way for you and the rest of your family.

Wow, I am amazed at so many replies since I woke up. As you may have gathered, I was up half the night cogitating and worrying about all of this, playing the reel round in my head. And then I finally went to sleep, slept soundly and recently woke up. Unlike the previous night where my sleep was disturbed and I had horrible nightmares, featuring LB, where I was trapped and helpless and couldn't get away.

Sorry to be so melodramatic but, as some posters have pointed out, by becoming involved with them again, I have made myself vulnerable. It's like being in the boxing ring, you get punched and knocked down, you get up again, are punched some more etc, etc until you become 'punch drunk' and can't see straight.

Every time I reach out, which I want to do - I really want to heal things and move forward - it all blows up in my face. I am so tired of it all and I suspect that DD1 is too. She has probably got to the stage where the upset and being torn between me and LB has made her feel that it's just not worth the effort. Just as I felt I was getting her back, she is lost again.

I agree that 'gifts' seem to be the manifestation of everything that is wrong in the relationship. As some of you remember from my first thread, a long time ago now, LB wanted me to give DD money to buy a house and was furious when I said that the money should be a loan, protected by a Deed of Trust. That was the start of the downward spiral. Then, when they said they had nowhere to live, we said that they could live in our retirement home for a while (we hadn't moved in at that stage), and LB assumed that it was a gift for them.

More recently, after we hadn't seen DD1 for three years and they met us for lunch, which DH pushed for, and which involved a very long journey and a night in an hotel, about a week later, LB/DD asked for a 'loan' of £10k to buy a house to do up and rent out. It was only after we had made the 'loan', that they told us about DGD1 and the letter announcing this, which arrived in the post with photographs of her, said that that they were telling us effectively because we had made the loan. However, when we visited in February 2020, just after DH's diagnosis, and the first time we had met the DGDs, DD1 asked if it were a gift or a loan and we said a loan, just to pay back when they could afford it. After DH died, I said that they didn't need to pay it back. DD said she would tell LB, but they neither offered to pay it back nor thanked me.

I like giving gifts to people, things that they will like, which will make their life easier or make them happy. But they don't want that and this is what upsets me, not the cost, but the lack of appreciation and that everything is critiqued or thrown back in my face. It makes me feel used. I get that LB was brought up in a different way and regards some of my gifts frivolous, just as he disapproves of wasting money on fripperies like eating out or going on holiday, or paying tradespeople to do jobs which he can do himself. Everything they have is free from Gumtree or bought for them. It is very rare that they buy anything new. And perhaps he is right, as they are now in a very sound financial position.

Even when LB came that first time, when he stayed for a week, and I made a big effort, cooking him lovely meals etc (which I hasten to add that I wanted to do), DD had to tell him that he should send a bunch of flowers as a thank you, which apparently he really resented. When I acted for him in a court case against their former landlord, who had failed to put their deposit in an account, and gained what for a student was handsome sum of money, he didn't even say thank you.

DD1's favourite novels were 'Wuthering Heights' and 'Tess of the D'Ubervilles', and sometimes I think maybe she sees LB as a Heathcliff figure and herself as Tess. Neither ended well, as I recall.

In the meantime, the parcels keep continuing to arrive, including a big bag of clothes from 'Cambridge Baby', about 5 minutes ago. I had said that I was happy to buy the DGC some clothes (DD1's suggestion, not mine), and she mentioned a couple of days ago that the cost was £300. Again, I mind less about the cost than the lack of consideration as to how I am going to struggle to Ireland on my own with all of these items. It will take two suitcases, including the Christmas gifts.

I know it’s a bit frowned upon but I just kept having a niggling feeing when you quoted that diatribe from your DD, @ChopinandChampagne - it seemed awfully familiar.

So I did a search. And bingo. Almost exactly a year ago you had a very similar email from her.

I won’t quote it but to paraphrase - she didn’t like the scented candles you sent so can you get a refund? She doesn’t like 'fake vegan foods'. They only wear natural fibres so the pyjamas you sent will have to be exchanged. If you want to send things, please send something useful that they need. She feels upset that you sent all these things that she doesn’t find to her taste, and it’s been causing her anxiety and she feels you don’t know her at all. And on and on and on.

In subsequent posts you confirmed that the 'synthetic' pyjamas were lovely jersey ones from the White Company and the candles were Diptyque. She didn’t thank you for any of the gifts you sent for the children.

I'm sure you can see that this is an absolute pattern now, so regular that it’s actually almost inked into their calendar. It’s a kind of ritualised abuse of you. Only this year she’s apparently not vegan but the ham was 'dry'. The crosses 'aren’t Christian'. It’s just the same abuse dressed up in a different way (presumably though they're finding the stove very useful for heating and cooking in their damp hovel so that can stay)

I feel so desperately sad for you, Chopin, that you keep trying to show your love for DD and she just keeps wounding you. It’s time to stop with the gifts, step back and let her reflect without any further overtures from you, ideally for a decent chunk of time.

Please cancel the trip to Ireland and arrange to return EVERYTHING they don't appreciate ANYTHING you do as they believe they are ENTITLED to it all plus more.

When you next see them in person I would get good quality 2nd hand clothes for the DC as then LB can see how frugal you can be. No doubt they will moan they aren't good enough.

You need to stop this merry go round.

The DC literally are pay per view.

Who spends £300 of someone else's money on baby clothes whilst treating them like shit?

I don’t think you said anything remotely awful. It all needed saying. Your daughter treats you terribly.
i agree with pps re the gifts. It has become a transactional relationship, as I think lipstick said upthread. You are constantly buying them things, doing things for them, worrying about your dds situation, while your dd herself seems happy, has made the choice to be in that situation, and even happier to berate you for everything you do. You seem afraid of them, and they have become even bigger tyrants as a consequence . Just stop buying them stuff ! Stop giving them money, or getting them things. A mother daughter relationship, when the daughter is a fully grown adult, shouldn’t be dependent on the mother giving, giving, giving. It should be mutual love and affection .
Just tell her that as gifts always seem to cause conflict between you, you are going to stop giving them and so should she. You can have have a loving relationship without them. My mother bought my daughters and I things at Christmas and for birthdays, but there wasn’t this constant thing of her buying things for us.
I will also add that my Dad dying made me realise with a jolt that my Mum would also not be around forever, and to try and show her that I appreciated her and give her as much love and care as I could. My parents were elderly when grandparents to my dc, but it still applies. Your dd seems to be iron plated, she has lost her Dad, alienated her sisters and only has you now, but does not treasure you at all. She has that quality of some teenagers, before they mature, of being really heartless, self righteous and pompous.
Everyone I know who has lost a Dad, (me when my dds were small, plus I have a few friends in your dd’s position at the moment, with a widowed Mum and young dc of their own) did their best to really care for their Mum afterwards, to see her more often, support her, give her a lot of love and attention. Your dd seems so self centred that she doesn’t even see you and what you are going through Chopin. Was she always like this ? It is staggeringly selfish, all of it. Most of us grow out of that once we are over 25 at the latest.
None of their behaviour is very Christian either, for someone so committed!

Oh OP I feel the weight of your sadness in every word you write. They have been so very cruel.

The gift issue is indicative of the issue as a whole.

Your DD has emotionally disconnected from you to the extent that you've been desperately trying to keep a connection of any kind going and that's been through gift giving.

Each gift you've hoped will be a rope that connects you to her again, showing her you love and care for her and her DC, that you think of them and thoughtfully consider their needs.

While you hope that rope connects you, she simply receives the gift on the end of it and then cuts the rope so it snaps back to you. Or LB cuts it. Or they both do.

At this point you need to in every sense drop the rope. You cannot love someone hard enough to persuade them to leave a highly controlling relationship until they are ready to do so.

I'm so sorry that this has happened. You've been fucking incredible to have tried so hard especially after losing your lovely DH.

Pour your love into your other DDs, who aren't pay per view and don't reject your efforts to be loving towards them.

Pour your mental energy into them and yourself. She absolutely knows you're there if she's ready at some point to leave him. She does know that. In the meantime, you need to drop the rope

Make the last thing you buy them the cost of a courier to take all this stuff to Ireland for them. Please don't say you are actually thinking of going, in mid-winter, with app this stuff to haul over, in the face of all the border strikes. You really can't put yourself through that. Send the stuff and let that be an end to things for now.

The courier will need to know what all the parcels are, and the value, so that import duty can be paid if appropriate. Just as you would if you got stopped at customs. This whole thing is breathtakingly unreasonable.

To me they seem incredibly dishonest, which I think is why she has DARVOd that back at you when you had the gall to be honest on the phone. Do they really believe that they are Christians, accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and all that comes with it? Humility, love? I don't see it, and I'm not the sort of person who thinks that religion means you are held to a high standard, but I don't get the impression they really believe it about themselves either? It's another test - believe we are these kind of people.... or else.

I've also followed your previous threads @ChopinandChampagne and am sad you're going through this.

I realise it doesn't feel like it now, but your frank exchange will be healthier for you in the long run. You were never going to be able to truly move on with all that has been simmering under the surface, because your daughter has acted appallingly seemingly without remorse or any insight as to the impact with regard to how cruel she has been. Hopefully your daughter will at some point be able to truly reflect on her actions. If she fails to do so, that will not make her "right".

As others have said, if focus on your other daughters whilst leaving the door open for your daughter, although do keep in mind you're not a whipping post.

Also, I cannot recall the position re estate planning but given the financial situation it would be wise to skip your daughter and pass her "share" of inheritance to your DGC once they come of age to stop LB laying his hands on anything.

Just out the bath so have mulled it over more.

So apparently DD1 apologised in private to her Dad on his deathbed. At no time has she apologised to the living to you, to her sisters and she wonders why they aren't sending her birthday cards???

That's more entitlement isn't it, she really believes she has done nothing wrong and has nothing to apologise for to anyone.

She's had a £10k gift in the written off loan, they have so much money sat in LB account they are fine.

No more gifts, no more transactional relationship. You both say you want a genuine honest relationship then give her what she is asking for, one where she offloads onto you her hardship and where you offer sympathy but no solutions. It will be the quickest way she sees who is keeping her in that situation.

Also the situation re gifts is baffling. I've received many an inappropriate/useless/hideous gifts over the years. I would never be so rude as react in the way your daughter has. I'd accept graciously and keep any negativity/ nastiness to myself. Going forward don't waste your time with gift, there will always be an issue because they want the drama.

Gifts are used as a means of control in the relationship. LB will tell DD that the gifts are no good and thoughtless which proves that Chopin doesn't really know or love DD thereby reinforcing his own position as the only person who knows and loves DD. It's all about control I'm afraid. All of us will have received useless gifts in our time and we just smile and say thank you and carry on without giving it another thought. But it is a way of LB asserting more control over DD.

My poor mum used to receive dreadful, spiteful letters berating her for inadequate gifts from our family's LB.

Chopin, it must have been wretched to find yourself in such a painful conversation with DD1, particularly after things seemed so much better.

But honestly, reading your account of the conversation I actually felt relieved and almost jubilant that you said what you did. She needed to hear your pain, frustration and disappointment, and you needed to express it.

Sadly they have trapped you in a game and no matter how diligently you endeavour to play it you will lose...... until DD1 comes to her senses and steps away from it.

LB needs to keep you 'in the wrong' and your daughter is complicit. I honestly believe the only way to stay sane is to take control, detach, and disengage. Keep a dignified distance, and don't let them manipulate you anymore.

It's easy for us to offer advice, though, and I can only imagine how heartbreaking it is to be in this situation, especially as a recently bereaved widow. My heart goes out to you, and I know that in your shoes I would be doing everything to build bridges, nurture relationships with the GC, etc. But please, please don't let them continue to treat you so cruelly. Step back, and focus on your other DDs and your friends.

I'm rooting for you!

Not one person who has commented on your last conversation with your daughter has said 'oh you should never have said that'. Please don't regret having said it.

We have a narcissist in our family, much like LB. My lovely MIL who is now dead was scared of her all her life, and walked on eggshells for 30 years trying to appease her. Over the years her easy going son who is married to this ghastly woman turned into a clone of her and became estranged from the rest of the family. Dear old MIL was a nervous wreck for the last decade of her life, constantly reaching out to them, sending gifts and cash, only to be hurt over and over again. There is only so much of yourself you can give. Only so much of yourself you should give. Concentrate on your other two daughters. You are a lovely person. You deserve your own happiness.

Agree with PP - this conversation needed to happen. You have done as much as you possibly could to fit in with the unreasonable demands but it is impossible to do so. LB intentionally makes it impossible. Isolating your DD from her friends and family by turning them into the enemy is typical abuser behaviour. I feel so sorry for the little ones growing up in that relationship. I do think your DD will come back to you in time.

Your comment about your DD’s favourite books - WH and Tess - does make me wonder whether she has a rather strange perception of what a love relationship should be. Christ - if she thinks Cathy and Heathcliff are the ideal, then that’s alarming.

What’s clear is that your DD is in an extremely abusive relationship. She’s been surviving in it for so long that she no longer has any sense of how a healthy relationship functions. LB sounds like a very dangerous partner and father to have. The fact she no longer has a bank account of her own and he controls the large amounts of money that they have is terribly worrying. We can only guess at how he was nagging and worrying at her in the background to get her to agree to that. I think her behaviour is best understood in that context. She must be going half-mad with the cognitive dissonance and constant adjustments and accommodations that come with living with an abusive partner. This guy sounds appalling.

One of the most hideous things about an abusive relationship is that you’re watching a criminal engage in criminal activity with a victim who - often - is living at the crime scene with the criminal. And the abuser’s behaviour gets worse over time. Of course, people can’t be arrested for the crimes they might commit in the future but it’s in DV situations that you really wish they could.

It’s terribly hard for you to be witnessing this and living it and walking the tightrope between maintaining a relationship with your DD and not normalising your DD’s desperately unhealthy primary relationship which is harming not just her but 3 tiny children. You’re clearly an extremely loving mother. Deep down your DD knows that and she knows that you’re there for her.

I am also really angry at the hundreds of pounds worth of clothes from Cambridge Baby , (that means lovely organic wool etc). Hardly roughing it in rural Ireland ! And expecting you to pay for it all while speaking to you like that !? Unbelievable Chopin ! So spoilt and entitled. While supposedly living a pious, Christian life, toiling away in the rural idyll, tilling the soil with a honest day’s work etc etc.

You could give the beautiful clothes to a local charity who may know someone in need.
It would be lovely to do something nice for a stranger who will appreciate you so much more than you own dd.

The most important people in this situation are those 3 tiny children.

He is an emotionally violent and mentally unstable character with likely a cluster B PD.

Your DD1 is an adult who has made choices and does have agency to comply with his extreme and isolationist behaviours or not. I agree that she is in an emotionally abusive relationship which she doesn’t see yet.

The turning point will be how far she allows him to abuse, neglect and emotionally destroy her children. Because he will. He can’t do anything else. He is doing this already if his parents have spoken out to say that his discipline technique / punishment are too harsh. They must have seen too much to have spoken out like that.

Which of the children is he demonising - and did your DD1 say exactly what his DPs objected to? Was it physical?

Please tell me you are not going! If you do, it will be nothing more than emotional self-harm. The toxicity is damaging you, remember how you felt when you came back from Egypt, your soul was energised and that’s because you escaped the toxic energy. You deserve to feel this way in abundance but this situation will never allow it.

Good for you pushing back Chopin!

——-

Worst case scenario…

The girls will be the demonised ones, especially the 2nd one.

I suspect he’ll want another son, so if baby no. 4 turns out to be a girl then he’ll want a baby no. 5 to follow.

Any boys will be taken back to the UK for meet ups with his family there. The girls can stay and help keep the farm going along with his wife. His wife won’t ever get the chance to go back to the UK, unless she’s allowed back when someone dies (for inheritance purposes to chivvy for cash for his bank account).

Just wondering what she thinks about her own life. If you were to say to her (I'm not recommending you do!) "How wonderful, you have achieved your dream of farming in Ireland, not being beholden to anyone else in terms of mortgage or job, you have your wonderful children and now being able to affirm your faith - you must feel satisfied and happy that your life goals have been realised and you're living your dream"??
Do you get the impression that she is of the attitude that 'it's hard but satisfying and ultimately what I want' or 'trying this even though it is making me miserable until the next thing comes along'?