Where is ChopinandChampagne? LB update?

[gianfrancogorgonzola]

Really hope you see this C&C, I was following your other threads (name change a lot) and wanted to check in to see how you are.

🙏🏼

Chopin, you must be feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the messages but as a pp said upthread, we all support you. As we're outside the situation I think we can probably assess it with the benefit of distance and without your understandable very emotional ties to DD.

Having said all that, I agree with everyone - her atrocious behaviour is, sadly, to be expected. I just wanted to pick out one line from the horrible diatribe she sent you:

You clearly have a very unsavoury image about us when it comes to money and possessions

Please remind me again how LB expected you and your DH to GIVE THEM A HOUSE? How many times your DD has asked you to buy things for her from her Amazon wishlist or whatever - and you have done, without a murmur, and changed them when she’s found fault in some way? How happily and greedily both of them have accepted many, many, many gifts - expensive ones - which you have bought out of love because she is your beloved DD and those feelings of love apply in turn to her children?

And then, having asked you to buy her a cow - a cow! - she turns round and nastily says ‘don’t bother about the cow now'.

Well, fine. Please don’t. P,ease don’t buy anything ever again for these appallingly manipulative and grasping people who, I’m afraid, are next-level experts in twisting every narrative to suit their own agenda, which is changed at every turn so that you are exposed to maximum pain and damage and you can never, ever predict how to react appropriately.

I'm so very sorry that your DD, who you love, is so enmeshed with this person that she colludes, whether consciously or not, in his emotional abuse of you. But you have to protect yourself now.

I agree with what others have said.

And on the one hand you are being accused of not supporting them in their newly found religion, yet in the next breath you are being lambasted for wanting to see the baptism. You can never win.

The majority of her message to you is focussed on gifts. Classic manipulation throughout it. Please don't send on the gifts she's been using you as a postbox for.

I hope you are getting support at home. I think not replying for now is the best. If you do reply, go grey rock and just say you are there if she needs. Don't pander to the drama.

'Gifts' become really become some kind of symbol to them haven't they.

I go to church and have done since childhood on and off but do not proclaim to have all the insider info on what's Christian and what's not and if someone bought my daughter a gift whether it be chocolate or gold, I accept graciously. Which is a Christian thing to do.

My heart breaks for you Chopin. Im rubbish at the good advice but agree with so many recent posters.

I can’t not imagine the hurt you must feel. But your daughters messages seem like they are written by a fifteen year old. I hope you can find solace in your other daughters, as sadly until she is free of this man the treatment you receive will be more of the same. Please look after yourself. You sound like such a caring woman.

Oh Chopin. What an awful message and how cruel your DD is. There are no other words for it. This is so sad but it is a game you can never win until your DD leaves LB. Until then it will just be repeat after repeat. I'm so sorry. My dear mum walked in your shoes for 25 years. I hate to say it but it never changed because my sibling stayed with my family's version of LB. I do wish it was different for you but you must protect yourself and invest all your energy elsewhere. Disengage. Disengage. Disengage. No gifts. No sending stuff on. Sending support and camaraderie. I know exactly what it's like.

I am sorry for you and this situation you daughter and grandchildren are in. I am rubbish at advice too but do think what ever you do it will never be right for LB.

Even if you became an expert in cow insemination and gave away all your worldly possessions (to LB) to follow the teachings of some particular saint it would still not be enough.

I hope you're doing okay Chopin but imagine you will be incredibly upset at all this - please do give yourself space and time, do not rush to reply and do not be pressured into responding.

Looking back at the messages, it is a minefield that was designed to trip you up at some point, some sadistic game playing by two manipulative individuals, and whether DD1 is conscious or not of that, the outcome is the same in that she completely plays to LB tune.

She was initially happy with keys, then LB likely decided this was his time to flex the rules.

You are then beaten with the inappropriate gift, your perceived 'resentment' at not being invited to christening, and linked straight back to 'resentment' at not being invited to their wedding, why wouldn't you just be happy for them type questions...

The christening was a 'private affair', an attempt to 'put you in your place', you are not seen as part of their family.

Talk of intolerance to their, new, Christian beliefs, however I may recall on the last thread that they are actually incredibly intolerant in a lot of their views on people and the world?

Dangling the children and their gifts as emotional blackmail now, maybe don't bother, I'd though it nice to give in person etc now all removed as options, and yet another set up from them that you didn't even sort their presents/give face-to-face/care enough/swan in and out their lives/we are cutting off as can't have them upset etc likely to follow.

You'll likely get pressure on whatever these 'other' unknown parcels are with you, do not send unknown packages on to Ireland.

Back in the letter she says stupid me for forgetting your unpredictable nature, this is such a low blow, passive aggressive nastiness.

Cruel of you as she can never talk to her Dad about what says - from the daughter who cut herself off from him, married and had GD1 without so much of a word, who wasted what could have been the gift of time with her dad?

I also spotted she mentions about closing her own bank account, so it's just LB's then and any cash gift or money would've gone straight to him anyway going forward.

Oh I’m so so sorry Chopin . You must be feeling incredibly hurt .

I’ve been on some of your other threads under a couple of user names as our daughter had her very own LB and the situation was scarily similar .

She is no longer with her abusive partner and has reconnected with us after treating us and her whole extended family dreadfully for 2 years and then going completely
“no contact” with us for another 3 years.

It is a very uneasy relationship for me as I know that as she was capable of such appalling behaviour before it’s probably just a matter of time until it happens again, I’m wary to relax at all as she hurt us all immeasurably .
Sadly , like my DD , I don’t think your DD will change and she is in no way blameless in all of this .

I think your DD will probably be back at some point ( when she needs something ) but maybe when that happens just treat her like a distant relative or daughter of a casual friend. No gifts or money.
Heartbreaking to do I know .

As others have said don’t blame yourself for “breaking the rules” you could never have won this one and the stress of trying could make you ill. Difficult to keep all your hurt in and at some point it’s bound to spill over as it’s not ever really been addressed or acknowledged by her.

Thank goodness for your two other lovely daughters , concentrate on them and plan some more exciting trips for yourself.

Sending you love .

Absolute fuckers. So sorry this has happened to you again. This is absolutely not your fault. Don't replay it to yourself and beat yourself up for the conversation. It's classic textbook narcissism at work. You experienced a brief respite of golden period and now you have been painted black again. The only way to stop playing the game is to walk away. Number one rule of narcissism is 'when you know you go'.

So sorry OP, I'm afraid you were never going to be in the good books for long, the goal posts jeep getting moved by them both.

Don't send money for the cow, your dd, LB or Xmas presents for the dgc, set up an account for the dgc and put money in there at Xmas, Easter and birthdays

The fifth commandment that the Lord gave through the prophet Moses was: “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” (Ex. 20:12.)

I am so so sorry to hear what has happened to you - again.

You need to recognise that you are in a financially, coercively controlling and emotionally violent relationships.

You are the abuse victim here.

Managing to stay on that tight rope along with ever changing obstacles and hidden trip wires is just turning you inside out.

Your posts are at 4 in the morning - you need to detach and take care of yourself because this could make you seriously ill.

You were doing so well just coming to terms very slowly with your enormous grief from your earlier posts - and this is where your finite time, emotion and energy should continue to be - to honour your marriage, your heart and your husband by stepping very far back from DD1.

Seems like this is a new phase for you on many fronts. Maybe this incident will give you more space for yourself. It all seems so futile and cruel with your DD1.

This is a tactic to subjugate you even further - to be their whipping boy to discharge their frustrations and rage on to as surprise surprise the off grid experience in a bleak corner in the west of Ireland is physically, financially, logistically brutal in the depths of winter.

Thank you so much for all of your supportive messages and I will try to respond to each one personally, but just struggling a bit at present.

Yes, I am very upset, but coping better than I have on previous occasions. I think that when the worst thing that could happen has happened, it oddly gives you a better perspective. Who wrote the famous line - 'Damaged people are dangerous because they know they can survive'? I am also starting to observe patterns of behaviour, and the fact that they have started to treat LB's DP in the same way indicates that the problem is not just with me.

I do regret not ending the call with DD1 sooner. Instead of saying that I was upset and ending the call, which I tried to do, I should just have made some excuse, such as there is someone at the door, in order to buy time and calm down and reflect before calling back. But she wanted to carry on and, to be fair, she was conciliatory on the 'phone and seemed very disappointed that I might not go to Ireland. She said that she had been looking forward to it and wanted to see me, which I actually believe, as we genuinely had a lovely time and were much closer after my recent visit.

She didn't say much, told me to calm down, as I was so upset. Everything that I had been bottling up came spewing out. I kept saying that I should have learned my lesson, that everything was thrown back in my face, why couldn't she just have accepted the crosses and put them to one side if they didn't want them, that they had Christian significance, but also wider spiritual meaning. They weren't associated with any non Christian religion. I said why did I bother, that nothing I did was ever right, it was just like last time, when all the gifts I had bought were thrown back at me. She said that I had bought vegan gifts. I said I had bought dairy free chocolate because I thought DGD1 had a dairy allergy (she previously had an allergy to dairy but DD1 had not told me that it had changed). Also, the hamper contained ham so was obviously not vegan. She said that it had been too dry and they had wanted to tell me because they were sorry that I had wasted my money.

I said that she was no-one to talk about inappropriate gifts after sending the Solzhenitsyn book about Russian death camps to someone who was terminally ill. Who does that? She said that Dad had wanted to read it (My recollection is that they told him how good it was and asked him if he wanted to read it and he was too polite to refuse).

I said that I still couldn't understand why she had treated him and me and her sisters so badly, why she had not told us about her marriage, about the birth of DGD1, why she had cut herself off, that it was such a cruel thing to do. I said the problem was that she had never really explained it, that we had spoken of it last year, but she had simply said that LB had told her to do it. I became very heated and said that wasn't even the beginning of an explanation, that if DH, her Dad, had told me to cut off my family, I would have told him to 'F' off, but that he wouldn't have done, because he loved me, and why would anyone who really loved you, want you to be estranged from your family.

I said her Dad and I had not deserved that. Why would she not have told us about the birth of DGD - even in cases of terrible parents, they would usually be told about the birth of a DGC. We were not abusive or anything. And the letter they sent with the photos of DGD1 was horrible, saying they didn't tell us because they didn't want to expose her to bad relationships. I asked how she would feel if DGD1 got married without telling her. She said that she would feel that she had gone wrong. I said that was how I felt, an abject failure, and LB would tell her she was better off without me and that he was probably right, that I could not deal with this, it was too upsetting, that I should have stayed in Egypt, where people I had only just met were kinder than she was.

I also said, several times, that it would be up to the DGC if they wanted to have a relationship with me when they were older. She said that she wanted them to have a relationship with me now. She said that she had encouraged that, or words to that effect, to which I replied that I was sick of being told what a privilege it was for me to have a relationship with my DGC. Also, how upset I had been when she had suggested that I would not be able to see DGS1, which made me feel nothing had changed. Why had she said that she did not 'feel guilty' at how she had treated her DF? The problem was she had never said sorry or shown any regret. She said that she had said sorry to her DF before he died. I said that was something.

I said why would you cut off DF, he did nothing wrong. She said that she had cut off the whole family because you couldn't cut off one without the rest. She has sent a card/message to DD3 but hasn't had a reply. I said what did she expect, she had ignored DD3's 18th and 21st birthdays. She said she was upset that DD3 hadn't sent her a card for her 30th birthday. She said she thought that things were in the past. I said that the present is built on the past and that the ripples go out a long way. That maybe we should just try to bury things under the carpet, but it was difficult.

I also said that I didn't like her racist views, that it was horrible to hate someone for their skin colour and that I didn't like the latest link she sent me (of some racist git sounding off in his sitting room), that it was vile. Also that they were being unkind to LB's parents, treating them in the same way, that they were good people, that my heart went out to them. Although they were much closer to them, I was pleased that she'd had support, especially after the births of the DGC, despite being upset that she didn't want me there and was much closer to them. She said why would she prefer them over her own mum.

Anyway, it was mainly me ranting, and I felt drained afterwards and that I had been so stupid to wreck something when it was going so much better, like I had a death wish. But you have all made me feel so much better by reassuring me that it was inevitable that I would express my feelings at some stage, that I am not a robot, that I cannot be forever a puppet, dancing to their tune, hoping for a few crumbs from the table.

I need to sleep now!

I also said - and I know this was really horrible of me - that if they didn't like the crosses they could melt them down and keep the gold, as they wanted gold.

I have subsequently sent a low key reply to her message, pointing out out the Christian significance of the crosses, saying that I had put thought into the gifts, that I was upset that they were rejected, as I was at not being invited to the baptism. I also said that, with respect, she did not know what my religious beliefs were, but I trusted that she realised that I would not have wanted to attend if it did not mean something.

I said that I loved her, that I wasn't going to engage in an exchange over WhatsApp which might be hurtful for us both, that I didn't have the emotional resources to deal with it, and suggested that we step back for a few days at least to reflect and maybe 'pray for guidance'.

I ended with this Irish blessing

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand.

I am worried that she doesn't have her own bank account or even access to a joint bank account, given that all of the sale proceeds from the two houses in the UK will now be in his account.

Well, having read all your posts over the years, it sounds like it was possibly the very best thing you could have done. I mean, at least she knows how her actions have been perceived. I’ve always felt that you have a very lovely kind of reserve about telling your children just how their actions affect you.

God, how cathartic to tell her about the solzenhytsin (sp?) book though. If she really didn’t see how awful that seemed, then she needed to, how else will she learn?

How are they actually finding integration into general Irish life by the way? Or do they just not?

You poor thing, I hope you’re not lying awake fretting about it.

By the way, I have popped up on various threads under name changes - I found your post about how dealing with the time since your husband died incredibly moving. It is so hard. You are doing so well.

Oh wow @ChopinanChampagne i’ve read your post cheering you on and crying for your pain in equal measure. I actually laughed out loud at your suggestion to melt down the gold as it was very apt in view of their previous behaviour.

everything you have said there, in the very necessary and inevitable rant, has been advised in various threads over the years then a few posts on someone’s, sometimes the original poster of the advice said actually in retrospect maybe don’t do that in very valid reasoning. I know I suggested it at one point I hope that when you have had time to reflect you regret nothing as if nothing else you have had the courage to be honest and really clear the air which ultimately is the only way to carry forward with a genuine relationship.

Your final WhatsApp messages are perfect. I think you’ve given her a lot to think about.

and you are right she has never apologised for any of it, whether coerced or not she has been a complete bitch to you and your family and due to their rules and you tippy toeing around them I bet you can’t remember the last time you said anything unguarded and real to her.

I am so sorry you continue to deal with this, which although I know it doesn’t feel like it right now but you do with dignity and grace. You are a strong, loving mother and she genuinely doesn’t deserve you.

At least anything that happens from here on in will be on a more honest footing. I'm amazed you've kept it all in so long. There might not be a way back to where you were but this is a more honest start to somewhere different.

Well done Chopin you mention feeling drained after the exchange but also I hope a little lighter from release of all that build up anger and upset, that full burden of things working out being put solely on you and fearing putting a foot wrong ❤️

I'm another big believer in honesty, things can't just be swept under the rug or, as is here, there was a giant mound which you were constantly trying not to trip on!

DD1 is very unlikely to be how she was pre LB, nor your relationship, and the best chance it seems is if/when she sees her own situation and leaves, this may dawn in her as the children get older.... (and whilst LB wanted a son (I think?) it will be interesting how he reacts to when DGS grows up, starts challenging etc)

I fear the honesty expressed will lead to LB having that as ammo, along with everything else he has noted (it wouldn't surprise me if there was a logbook for you all somewhere!) but disengagement and space is definitely needed. You will always be there for her but not like this, someone not worthy of being part of their lives but willing to do any bidding, not questioning anything about them and their lives and to be castigated at any point of their choosing.

I have also followed your threads over the years and occasionally commented. I think your last call sounds like it needed to happen actually and that it won't harm your dd to hear all these truths. Of course she will try to spin it that you are the awful person here, but she will have heard what you said and taken it in. I don't think your relationship was sustainable as it was with all the ridiculous rules.

Spend some time with your other dds and leave the ball in her court with regard to picking up her parcels and seeing you. Well done for speaking up. Try not to feel bad about it.

I have a friend whose ds treated her really badly using his dc as a pawn.
Witholding dc eventually and friend so devestated.
What changed everything was her dd getting pregnant.
Her ds on probably realising another dgc would get all the attention (and money) told friend how him and his dw wanted to try again and build the relationship.
Friend was overjoyed and I was pleased for her but the cynic in me will always believe that her ds couldn’t bear for his dn to be the number 1.

In your place I would concentrate on your younger dd’s .
When dd1 communicates generally big up the other 2 dd’s, be sure and let her know that your time and attention will be more fruitfully spent on the 2 dc that don’t play games.
And when your younger dd’s do have dc your eldest dd will not want her dc left out.

And don’t despair my dsis thought her dh was god.
He was pretty shocked when 18 years later the scales dropped from her eyes and she divorced him.

Sounds like you delivered a few necessary home truths to DD there.

And please, stop buying them things. It hardly ever happens that gift buying doesn't piss off at least one of the parties here. Either they fly off the handle or ask you for something you don't really want to give them.