Where is ChopinandChampagne? LB update?

[gianfrancogorgonzola]

Really hope you see this C&C, I was following your other threads (name change a lot) and wanted to check in to see how you are.

🙏🏼

Not sure why you are saying she is getting a hard time,you have literally just repeated the advice already given.
We have enormous empathy but the time has come to realise LB and DD1 cannot change in a meaningful way, this is who they are.
The only way to change a situation is to change one's own behaviour.
The issue is our behaviours are as hardwired ( in childhood) as theirs so often the view of others can be illuminating in situations such as these.
One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned is when someone in a toxic family situation dies,the order or line up gets a big reshuffle and behaviours that have always been there become exposed.

Poor @ChopinandChampagne is getting a hard time here!

Don't be silly. She's getting great support & good advice, as she has on a lot of other threads. She's a strong, capable woman who has had an awful run of events, and has been desperately treated by her eldest DD.

She doesn't want buckets of sympathy - some, yes, but mostly she is looking for listening ears and advice that might help.
It's MN at its finest.

I've been following for a while and I think C&C is dealing with a seismic shift in family dynamics that is both extremely complex and painful to navigate. Of course there are going to be bumps in the road.

She's going through the grieving process for both her DH and DD1. As with any form of grieving we can oscillate between anger/fear/denial, because sometimes things are just too painful to deal with at that stage. Just because she may take a step back sometimes doesn't mean she isn't moving forward. She's wrestling with a cognitive dissonance between who she thought her daughter was and who she actually is. I can't imagine how difficult that is.

C&C you are doing so well in dealing with all this although it may not feel like it. Hopefully this thread will act as a journal so when you're feeling strong enough you can remind yourself of what you've been put through and avoid future pitfalls.

Thank you so much for all of your wonderful replies and sorry at the slight delay in replying, as I am still trying to 'process' everything.

Wherearemymarbles - I adore Ian McKellan. I remember sending him a fan letter many years ago, when I saw him play Romeo with the RSC, and he sent me a lovely reply and signed photograph. I went to see 'Noises Off' in the West End yesterday with some friends from the Egypt trip, which was great fun.

Lilliflip - thank you for your post. DD1 can be very loving, but also quite spiteful. I do know this and I have to accept that is who she is. I don't want to confront it, as it's too painful. I would just like an 'arm's length' relationship, but I am not sure if that's possible now. Thank you for saying that I wasn't 'mad' - I had, as you say, been 'walking on eggshells', and I just couldn't keep it up indefinitely. If I cared less, it would have been easier.

Newestname002 - thank you so much for your kind, supportive post. I do have to hold out hope for the future as, sometimes, I feel that the weight of it all is obliterating the present.

Thank you LadyEloise1 for another lovely post. You have been a great comfort to me.

billy1966 - thank you for your amazing post, which resonated with me so much. I feel just as your SIL does, even though it is two years on, sometimes just 'demented', simply mad with grief. I totally, utterly, identify with everything that you say about her experience and I am so sorry for her - please send her a virtual hug from me, even though I am a stranger. I feel like an alien living in my old body. Sometimes, I don't know who I am any more, or what is the point of me. Not being self pitying, at least I hope not, but I genuinely don't know. I am existing, just, and sometimes there are glimmers of something more, life, hope, and I try to cling to that. And I know that objectively I am fortunate, but I miss DH in such a deep, visceral way, that it is hard to explain.

tribpot - I appreciate what you are saying. I do believe that DD1 loves me and that she loved DH and her sisters. DGM, and friends, but ultimately not enough to maintain the relationships against LB's wishes, and that's what really hurts. One of the things I said, in my heated and emotional outburst, is that if DH had ever told me that I couldn't see my family, I would have told him to 'F* off', but that he wouldn't have said that, because he loved me so much, and that nobody who really loved you would want you to be cut off from your family.

Goldpaw - thanks for your post. When I said 'send me the photos'. it was the equivalent of 'let's have lunch sometime'. I assure you that I was not trying to engage, quite the contrary. I know that to engage with LB's DPs is a 'lose, lose' situation.

slamwich - thank you for your post and I am interested that you think LB will actually not be pleased at the lack of contact, as I had assumed that he would be. Yes, I do blame myself, maybe because it is less painful that way, rather than believing that my DD doesn't actually care for me that much.

Koalacudddles (I love your user name!) - thank you for your brilliant post, which really resonated with me, and which I found really helpful. DD1 has become incredibly 'rude' since she met DH. I suppose that since they don't mix with anyone, they have lost any perception of, or respect for, 'normal' social niceties/manners. They live in their own little world where they/LB make the rules and everyone else is wrong/stupid.

EarringsandLipstick - thank you for your posts but, above all, of describing me as 'strong' and 'capable'. I don't often feel it, but it really helps me if other people see me that way. I used to be quite a strong person, I think, but I didn't appreciate just how much DH was part of that strength. I am like Samson with a number 1 cut! 🤣

goody2shooz - thank you for your post. You are right, the relationship, although ostensibly better than it had been, was not 'normal'. It should be possible to have a difference of opinion, or even a heated argument, without being blocked or cut off. I was chatting to a young mother on the train yesterday, and I honestly felt more at ease in being with her baby, who was just one, the same age as DGS, who is one tomorrow, than with my own DGC. I sometimes feel a bit of a freak to feel this way, but I am so afraid of being hurt again.

strawberry2017 - thank you!

Flipthefrugal - I hope that you are right, but I am not hopeful, to be honest. She still sees him as omniscient and omnipotent and, given that they have now been together for 9 years, there is no reason to expect any change. She will always choose him over anyone and everyone else, and that's just how it is. I have to grovel to be in their lives, on their terms, or not at all.

WhatDoesItSay - thank you. I did send a birthday card to DGS, but I did wonder whether or not it was the right thing to do.

DoristheDuchess - thank you so much for your post, which summarises exactly how I feel, backwards and forwards, up and down, inside out, and every which way. This thread has indeed been a great support to me and, when I am feeling low, it brings me strength to read through it.

I just checked back in because I was worried my post sounded too harsh @ChopinandChampagne. I’m glad you didn’t think that. I feel so bad for you stuck in this cycle. Of course you want a relationship with your daughter. You’ve tried so hard. Please don’t beat yourself up for talking about your feelings. Relationships must be based on truth. You needed to say those things, and I think she needed to hear them. It just might take her a long time to listen.
shame is such a powerful emotion. I hope she feels ashamed of the way she treats her family and allows you to be treated by her chosen family.

they will be back - Only you can decide what you’ll
do then. Please don’t waste the interim going over it all. Enjoy your trip and cuddle all the koalas for me! I’ve posted under a few names, but quite like this one.

go easy on yourself, all you’ve done is love x

Koalacuddles - thank you for your reply and of course you were not being too harsh. I appreciate your honesty, as I do everyone else's on this thread, whether critical or not. It is wonderful to have support, but also to receive dispassionate advice as to what I may be doing wrong or how to cope with a difficult situation.

I think, deep down, DD1 knows she was wrong to cut us off last time. I don't doubt that it was LB's doing, or why otherwise why did she see us and present me with a beautiful hand drawn picture of my dog, and say she loved us before cutting us off? But the bottom line is that she just does what LB says and not entirely from a position of being consciously cowed. On the contrary, she has come to embrace all that he stands for, including his feelings of grandeur and superiority, lack of respect for others, including family, his weird conspiracy theories, his xenophobia and desire for isolation.

I do think that it is the height of cowardice to send the nastiest message that you can muster, before closing down the ability to reply - like lobbing a grenade and then running away. As I have said before, if DH had been diagnosed two years sooner, when we were out of contact, she would not have known of his diagnosis. Yet, here she is, doing exactly the same thing again. She has changed her 'phone number and address, neither of which are known to my executors, DD2 and DD3, so if anything were to happen to me, they would not be able to contact her.

I have decided to give myself headspace by doing nothing until I get back from holiday. Difficult though it is, I know that you are all right in saying 'drop the rope'. Interestingly, I had a session with my therapist on Friday, not the new one but the one who has been counselling me since DH's death. Even she thought that they, ie DD1 and LB, were not bringing anything to my life, but just causing me pain, which is likely to continue. with further rejections etc. She asked me if I would want to know DD1 if she were not my daughter and, of course, the answer was easy but also shocked me. No, I wouldn't want to know her or associate with her at all.

@ChopinandChampagne I think headspace is probably much needed. You could drive yourself mad thinking about all the “what if’s” and “if only’s” here. And, the truth is that, no matter how much time you spend thinking, the situation is what it is right now. You are only hurting yourself if you let it distract you from living your life.

thinking dialectically may help you. The idea that 2 opposing things can be true at the same time is quite powerful. Dd is probably in an abusive relationship. She is also abusing you. you can love her and also not like her behaviour. Nothing is absolute.

the only thing you have control over is how much you let this affect you. I really hope you start treating yourself with the kindness and compassion you’ve offered to your daughter. Your dh sounds like a wonderful man. I’m sure he would approve of you putting this on the shelf for a while and focusing on your own happiness. As everything, this situation is temporary. It will change again and seeking to do that before anyone is ready won’t help. I think that your daughter may have done you a huge favour by shutting you out. It may even be easier for her than constantly feeling torn between you and her dh. Easier said than done, but leave it be.

I didn't see the original "LB" threads, but this is one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen on MN. This couple are clearly a unit now and both of them will exploit, abuse and treat you cruelly at every chance. Nothing you do for them is right or enough, and it never will be. They have adopted a strange life together. The "religion" and closeness to the neighbours are bizarre. They sound lot like cult members. All you can do is save yourself. I agree entirely with the approach suggested by @billy1966 :
"I think more of a detached, distant vibe of, I am always here for you, but I am getting on with my life and will let you get on with yours too, might be wiser."

Thank you for the latest advice.

Koalacuddles - you are spot on in what you say in that 'the situation is what it is right now'. I hope that it may change but, realistically, I have wrecked everything by losing control and being upset and angry. I know that I can't put the clock back, there is nothing to be done, but it's hard to detach from the 'if onlys'. I think that having been so upset by me, DD1 will conclude that LB is right and that she is better off without me. She had worked hard at effecting a reconciliation, but now that has been blown out of the water. I think she would have liked me to be in the 'family unit', or at least on the periphery, but was also seeking validation for their lifestyle and views. My biggest 'what if' is 'what if she had never met LB'.

FictionalCharacter - you are right too.The situation is bizarre. Their whole lifestyle is bizarre, but then LB is very strange. Even DD1 has said in the past that he would be happy never to see anyone. I just worry how it will affect the DGC.

And I am sorry not to be there for DD1, as she was starting to confide in me and I was her only real point of contact with what I would describe as 'the outside world'. She now has her groceries delivered, so I don't think they ever leave the small holding, unless it is to go to church - assuming that they do go.
The DGDs speak with excitement how Daddy might drive them to the seaside for the day one day when he has the car, which he now has, but who knows if the trip will ever materialise.

My old therapist, who is now better, or almost, is suggesting that I should send a letter or card apologising and telling DD1 how much I love her, because that is the 'grown up' thing to do, and she thinks it will make me feel better. However, she says that I should not mention anything about my feelings, as it will make DD1 defensive. But I am dithering, as I would be upset thinking that they might throw it in the bin or that DD1 might not even see it. On the other hand, I would at least feel that I had done something, and I would send it just before I leave for Australia.

I really don't want another long estrangement but I don't need much contact. I don't want to be closely involved in their lives, not that this is an option, just to know that all is reasonably ok with DD1 and the DGC.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on. I am trying to detach but I am having a bad day today and also worrying about my dog, who is not very well. Realistically, I am not sure how long he will be with us. When he was younger, he looked exactly like Tony's dog in 'After Life', which I have been rewatching. I am actually enjoying it more second time round, as there are some underlying positive messages around bereavement and grief.

On a more cheerful note, I had a very good lunch with DD2 and her boyfriend last week, DD3 is fine, I am having lunch with a friend today, and only one more week until my holiday.

There's a thread on MN today in AIBU, where the mother is NC with her DP and has told her 5 year old DD that her DP are dead. The recommendations are that she correct his by saying that the DP just aren't very kind and live a long way away, so there don't see them any longer. I wonder if that's what DD and LB will say about me. At least they won't be lying in saying that DH is dead.

I'm sorry you're having a difficult day today Chopin. I don't think your therapist has the best idea of how abusive relationships operate though (or she is prioritising making you feel temporarily better over long term happiness).

As for your DD - I'm sorry, but she chose this. The more you make her life better, the longer she will remain in it.

@ChopinandChampagne you have just written ".....I have wrecked everything by losing control and being upset and angry....."

Have you taken on board what many very helpful posters have written on these threads ?
You have wrecked nothing.
Your selfish, self centred daughter has aligned herself with her grabby, nasty husband, they both decided to live off grid but with as many hand outs as possible from those they despise.
It's their way or nothing.
In the first threads I felt sorry for your dd1 thinking of her as a poor innocent besotted with a controlling man. The more you have revealed about her, the less sympathy I have for her. She was unkind to her sisters, her grandparents, her friends, her grieving uncle and aunt, and most of all to her Mum and Dad.
She has form.

You have wrecked nothing.
She has decided to punish you for not giving her what she wants when she and LB want it.
It's all on her terms.
Oh - and change your therapist.
Apologising 🙄
For what ?

Don't apologize - you would be vindicating her sense of being the wronged party, and think how much LB would relish it. You're not the unkind party in all of this, Chopin. Don't assume that role.

I'm torn about apologising, my ONLY reason for it would be in the hope that she ever leaves she would reach back out. So it would be a "sorry that we don't see eye to eye on things and are able to get one please know that I will always love you and will be here if you need me" let her read what she wants into it.

She comes for money for them in their life choice, nope. She and the kids come to you needing a temporary roof over the heads yes.

But you need to do KNOWING that you have done nothing wrong and it isn't all your fault, never was.

So sorry about your DDog we had lots of worries about holidays and time away from home with our elderly cat in her end years. Hindsight is wonderful but we should have worried less because whenever it does happen and wherever you are the grief is just as painful

Do not apologise at all, you have done nothing wrong and if you feel the need to send a card it should be a post card from oz saying what an amazing time you’re having and how you hope the dgc’s have been able to enjoy a day at the beach and that you thought of them while you were swimming in the sea.

Everything I’ve written there is exactly what I would write to my dc, it’s what normal people would write. If you feel you can’t it’s not you that s in the wrong they are the ones causing this.

I think I wouldn't apologise for being angry but I think I'd apologise for buying the gold crosses. Your daughter has been really consistent in saying she doesn't want you to buy big surprise gifts and you have blatantly ignored that. I can see why that has infuriated your daughter and lobster boy. I get a bit confused with everything that has gone on but I think you've ignored their requests not to buy big gifts in the past too.

You are clearly not the villian in this and your daughter and LB are truly awful people but I think I might apologise or at least acknowledge that you went against their wishes by buying that gift.

They say you see the real person when you say no to them.
Reading your latest post @ChopinandChampagne I think that your relationship is a trauma bond.
The desperation, highs and lows.
She is abusive and only contacts you when she wants something.
The minute you have needs or say no, she discards you.
Now that's never going to change

Even if she fell out with LB she will come back, not because she loves you but because she needs to use you for money, support and a roof over her head.

I'm sorry to put it so bluntly.
I think you really need to step away, to heal and detach. To mourn what you have never had.
A relationship with an adult daughter shouldn't be like this.

You have 2 other daughters that you rarely mention.
Cultivate a strong relationship with them and set a firm line in the sand/ boundaries with your eldest.
See trauma bonding, obviously the sexual part refers to a romantic relationship.

I'm concerned that as well as blurring boundaries hugely which is inappropriate and tbh unethical of her, your counsellor is providing you with unwise advice re suggesting you write an apology letter to DD and LB.

I really think it's best you now treat the counsellor as a friend if you keep in touch, stop seeing her in her capacity as a therapist and get a new counsellor.

And I would be very transparent with them that with your previous counsellor, boundaries were blurred and you ended up speaking as peers about both your private lives, so you would like them to have really clear and professional boundaries with you. They'll then be sure to steer you away from it happening again.

Another person concerned here that your counsellor is giving you poor advice. Don’t send an apology letter.
LB & DD will be delighted if you apologise, as it cements your role as the baddie which you absolutely are not. I’ll repeat again from my last post, you have zero to apologise for and your DD sounds like she has exhibited nasty behaviour to her family members for years. Everything you said needed to be said to them.
Honestly please detach and focus on your other daughters, your DD1 will come back to you (when she needs something).

I've been on this thread with a number of names but haven't commented as you've had so much good advice, but I feel I really have to say something about this comment I have wrecked everything by losing control and being upset and angry - YOU haven't wrecked anything! You voiced your feelings following years of emotional abuse from your DD and LB, even during the death of your DH, they continued to abuse you.

Think of it in another scenario if it helps. If your friend was being abused by her DH, would it be her fault if she finally snapped and told him exactly what he'd done to her, or should she keep the peace and continue to let him abuse her for the sake of the relationship? Should this friend send her abusive DH a letter and apologise?

Just because it's your DD, doesn't mean you should continue to let her abuse you.

I get a bit confused with everything that has gone on but I think you've ignored their requests not to buy big gifts in the past too

@ShockedAndAwake you mean the big gifts other than the very substantial wood-burning stove/cooker which they were gracious enough to accept because it suited them very well to have an expensive item bought for them? So it’s just the other gifts that they could manipulate and emotionally torment Chopin with that they object to? Hmm.

@Ogonek Not sure what the 'Hmm' means tbh. I know the Daughter happily accepts gifts and money from the OP and I know they are massive hypocrites etc but they have been clear they didn't want the OP to buy frivolous gifts and the OP has ignored that. I "think" she has done it in the past too but I can't remember for sure. I can see that would be something that would be annoying to them and would be something that lobster boy would use to his advantage.

I understand why the OP bought the gold crosses but it was thoughtless.

ShockedAndAwake - I don't think you've read the whole thread. The gift giving hasn't been as you describe at all.

I did read the whole thread and I've been on Chopins threads right form the very first Lobster Boy thread. I've posted on them too. Under lots of different user names though.

I think buying gifts unasked for is a big mistake. I'm firmly on Chopin's side I just think she made a big mistake ignoring the clear wishes of her daughter and LB.

My old therapist, who is now better, or almost, is suggesting that I should send a letter or card apologising and telling DD1 how much I love her, because that is the 'grown up' thing to do, and she thinks it will make me feel better.

I think this is terrible advice. Is she a qualified psychotherapist? What therapies is she using with you? Good therapists don't suggest you do things to make you feel better, they work with you in a specified structure in order that you can move forwards in a healthier way.

I have wrecked everything by losing control and being upset and angry.

This is untrue. If you are taking this to a therapist why are they not working through your unhelpful self beliefs?

Like someone else said you are obviously stuck in an unhealthy trauma bond and need help with that. And for that, you need a qualified and good psychotherapist to work with.