Where is ChopinandChampagne? LB update?

[gianfrancogorgonzola]

Really hope you see this C&C, I was following your other threads (name change a lot) and wanted to check in to see how you are.

🙏🏼

Absolutely this.

The health of any relationship you have with your daughter going forward will be directly linked to YOU setting the firmest of boundaries.

I can only imagine how hard Christmas was.
Whenever there is loss of loved ones, Christmas is a very painful time.

I have lost some darling friends over the past couple of years and I found this Christmas very hard thinking of them, their children and spouses.
I found myself quite low at times.
I can't even imagine the level of grief were it to be my husband.

Funnily enough at a lunch with some dear friends last week I mentioned it, and every single one of them felt the loss of loved ones acutely this year, and felt Christmas never quite got off the ground for them this year.

Whether Covid burn out is part of it, who knows, but I was delighted to see it pass and get into '23.

Definitely see your GP for support.
Grief is so debilitating.

Wishing you well.

I wonder if I will ever see DD1 and my DGC again.

Oh Chopin 💐

As Billy & Goody have said, you will see them again.

It may well be because DD1 wants something.

But it may also be because she misses you - no-one (almost no-one!) is fully bad or complicated, and there are good sides to DD1 too and she loves you.

It also as Billy says will be because you are setting your boundaries out, and she will have to respond to that. Until now she knows exactly that you are there to respond to every whim, every request & however badly she behaves, you'll still be there, doing all you can to support her.

A bit like a toddler does, she needs those firm boundaries and 'no' to be said & it'll actually be helpful for her.

Your Australia / NZ trip couldn't come at a better time.

So glad I found this thread. I’ve thought of you often @ChopinandChampagne. God I’m so angry at LB but your DD knows what she’s doing.
The whole thing of him not wanting his gift.. if you receive a gift you don’t want you say thank you! And moan in private. God how fucking rude!
Hope Oz is amazing ☺️ you are amazing. You’ve had so much good advice I won’t add anything but just wanted to say you are surrounded by so much love with your other two daughters and other family. Just lean in on that.

I can't find my last msg!! Anyway any questions about Australia pls ask. I previously mentioned that your trip sounds fun but very hectic! Feel free to msg me about anything

Thank you for your lovely, kind posts and my apologies for the delay in replying.

Newestname002 - thank you for the flower. I have two daffodils blooming in my garden today, so hopefully a sign of new life and better times ahead.

RandomMess - thank you for your flowers too, quite a bouquet I now have!

PussInBin20 - I don't know if she will 'wake up and smell the coffee' anytime soon. What could I have done differently? Been more detached, less emotional, not played into LB's hands by 'proving' that any relationship with me is harmful to DD1 and the family unit.

tribpot - although the boxes went to LB's DP, it seems that they are not now going to Ireland until March. I received quite a long reply from LB's DM a couple of days after they received the boxes, saying that she apologised for the delay in replying but they had hardly been at home, as they'd had a rough couple of weeks looking after LB's DGP, who are very poorly, and they are exhausted.

'We don't have plans to go to Ireland yet and it's likely not going to be until March. We haven't seen the children since beginning of July - it is something we must get used to sadly.'

Then she explained how they are sharing care with LB's aunt. They are facing difficulties in moving furniture into the new house until the front door has been widened and, effectively, they don't know whether they are coming or going. However, she did say that DD1 had told her that I am going travelling and she wished me a wonderful trip. Then 'hope for better things this year. Sadly I have come to realise that things are largely out of our hands'. I wonder if DD1 told her that we are estranged again or just said that I couldn't take the stuff over because I will be away.

Anyway, I took this to be a 'reaching out' message, but haven't responded yet, and am not really sure what to say. I have lived with the pain of estrangement before but this is new territory for them. When I first met her, she told me how DD1 was a credit to me, like a daughter to her, and what a lovely family they were ie LB and DD1 and their DC. They must be shellshocked by the sudden rejection, criticisms, making it clear they are not welcome etc, especially after they had formed a close bond with the DGDs. All that, plus caring for elderly DP, it must be really hard.

billy1966 - thank you for your messages, which are always so intelligent and perceptive. I agree that Christmas is a difficult time and, whereas we might expect it to be better post-Covid, it was actually worse for many, like your friends. It's like someone who has been in prison for a long time, then they are set free, but their mind is still in prison so they don't know what to do, even yearn for the 'safety' of the prison cell.

EarringsandLipstick - thank you so much for another supportive post. You make me sound like the adult, setting boundaries, whereas part of me feels that I was the toddler, in getting so angry and emotional and upset, and destroying the fragile and embryonic relationship which we were starting to rebuild. The unfortunate thing is that the row doesn't lead to a 'clearing of the air', but as grounds for exclusion again.

Noshowlomo - thank you for your lovely post.

marvellousmaple - I can't wait to come to Australia and, as others have said, hopefully it has come at the right time. Whereabouts do you live? Are there any places you recommend that I should see or visit in or near Melbourne?

Wishing everyone a wonderful weekend!

Good to see your update @ChopinandChampagne I would be cautious around the ILs. I would listen for a long time and not draw too many conclusions. They were “happy” to see you out in the cold re weddings and births.
One of them is likely like LB but maybe masks it better? He’s their son. Tread carefully. It’s also wise to be resistant to your curiosity

Totally agree with @TicketMasterMind . I would be super cautious about the Lobster Parents. They aren't on your side, and there is every risk anything you say to them being repeated to LB and twisted to use against you. It's not entirely clear whether she's referring to the estrangement with LB as the reason she can't see the grandchildren, or her caring responsibilities here in the UK. So I wouldn't take the bait (in case it is bait) and just express sympathy and the hope that they get to see the children soon.

I so agree with this.

I wouldn't bite.

If this is the first time they have been put on restrictions, it is very possible they would repeat anything you would say to curry favour.

However, I do find it hard to believe this is the first time they have had difficulties with him, more likely they are well use to humouring him and his demands.

Some parents are genuinely ill-equipped to deal with what they have produced and live their lives in confusion and on their nerves waiting for the next upset.

They may be genuinely lovely people with a difficult son, or deeply flawed people who have raised this horror of an entitled indulge son, whom they have never corrected.

Either way I would stick to banalaties with them.

Wishing you well.

I agree about keeping your distance from LB's parents. You've no idea what their relationship is really like, and anything you say may be turned against you at any point if they think it will curry favour with him. Keep to grey rock responses. Oh dear that's a shame, I hope you see them soon kind of thing. And don't engage further. You've just managed to pull yourself out of being embroiled with LB and DD1 directly, do you really want to become embroiled via his parents.

If you feel the need to respond it's simply send a short message, something along the lines of 'no problem with the boxes going into March, yes I'm off on my travels again, really looking forward to some sun, rest and relaxation. Love to you and yours Chopin'

Well one thing this letter show’s Chopin, is that it’s actually not personal.
LB /DD treat everyone this way, including friends.
It of course doesn’t make it any easiet

If you are going to Melb just head to the city on a tram. Pretty much everything is walking distance from there. Lygon ST. St Kilda is worth a visit ( beach and cakes!). Daylesford is over an hour away but is lovely.

Sadly, I'm just a visitor ( live rural NSW ) so hopefully someone better acquainted with Melb can help you out with more. Any questions about Sydney I can help with. ENjoy yourself

What @ImBlueDab says is great

Yes, keep any replies to LBPs bland and brief.

Enjoy your travels in Australia! Do you have time to visit the Margaret River area when you are in Perth? I’ve been told it’s stunning, with fabulous wineries too!

When we visited Melbourne, we went to the war memorial. Every day at 11am they re-act a short remembrance day service. It's very moving.

St Phillip's island for the little penguins is a great day out. Go in the evening when the little penguins return to the shore to nest

Thank you everyone for your suggestions about my trip to Australia, which I will certainly bear in mind. I suspect that I will need to visit again, if I am able to, as there will be limited time to see as much as I would like to see. As it is, I will be away for a month, and I am worried about being away for longer from my dog, who is an old boy now and developing some health problems.

Thank you also for the advice about replying to LB's DM. I eventually sent a message yesterday afternoon, along the lines suggested, friendly, saying I thanked them for taking the boxes, hoped they wouldn't take up too much room, wished them well with the renovations and said it sounded a busy and challenging time, asked them if they had any holiday plans etc.

I received a reply about five minutes later, saying no problem about boxes fitting into camper van, they were thinking of visiting some places in the North, such as the Giant's Causeway, as it was a long way to drive and expensive on the ferries to spend two days with LB and DD1. She also said her DD had visited NZ and loved it, although they had never been outside Europe, and again wished me a wonderful trip.

From this I infer that they have been told that they may visit for a maximum of two days, and not until March. DD1 previously told me that, in the list of 'grievances' set out by LB in an email, they had also been told that they would need to help with the cooking as it was too much for DD1, and not to overstimulate the DGC. In short, they have been made to feel so unwelcome, that it is testament to their love for the DGC that they are going at all. Interestingly, the last message to me said that they had not seen the DGC since last July, not that they had not seen LB and DD1 since last July. So I suspect that DD1 is right when she says that they are only interested in the DGC and not in them.

TicketMasterMind and Tribpot - I am indeed being cautious. I wouldn't say that they were 'happy' to see us 'out in the cold' before, as they had no way of contacting us and LB made it clear that he did not want us to be in touch. However, the first time we visited, they made a point of contacting us at our hotel, sent flowers on DH's death, a card when DGS was born etc.

billy1966 - I think you are right. LB's DM told DD1 that he was 'difficult' quite early on in the relationship, and DD1 thinks LB is very like his DF and DGF, both of whom apparently would choose to be social recluses if they could - in fact, the DGPs already are, but then they are old and frail. It is clear that LB's DP are much closer to their DD and I suspect that, if she has DC, the new DGC will become the focus of their attention, especially as they are so unwelcome in Ireland.

LB likes to control and nurses a grudge. My personal view is that he is using the DGC to 'punish' his DP for perceived or actual past slights and for favouring his sister. At least when I have visited in the past, DD1 knows that it is because I want to see her as much as the DGC, so have welcomed spending time alone together. I was actually quite pleased when the arrangements were abruptly changed last time I visited, so Day 2 was spent with DD1, although I felt sorry that I had broken my promise to the DGDs to return the next day. However, I suspect that LB assumed that I would be like his DP and upset not to see the DGDs, so he deliberately changed the arrangements.

Goldpaw - that's good advice. A short and friendly response will follow later. I am getting better at sitting on my hands! Although I was quite tempted to sympathise with them on the cost and trying to combine a visit with a holiday. At least they are able to drive. In my case it costs upwards of £500 in taxis to and from the airport etc, plus flights and accommodation, in order to see my DGC and DD1 for maybe 10 hours in total (last time I saw the DGDs for about 5 hours). They are about two hours' drive from Dublin, where I would much prefer to stay, as I could be there for longer and it is a lovely city with plenty to do and see. I would even be happy to arrange a hotel for DD1 and the DGC for a night or two, if LB felt his responsibilities kept him at home, but I know he would never agree to it.

Wherearemymarbles - yes, there is a strange sort of reassurance in knowing that it is not just me they have a problem with, it is basically everyone, apart from the neighbours, and who knows how long that will last!

FerretInAFrock - I don't think there will be time to visit the Margaret River. but hopefully I can sample their wares! I have recently done a wine tasting course and the Margaret River featured in some of our tastings.

@ChopinandChampagne
I have been on previous threads and you had some good advice to stop being so involved on there.
Your last message is madness!
You are completely enmeshed in this toxic drama with LB and your DD1 and now the ILs
LB will NEVER change and you can't control any of this, only your own reactions.
I would suggest stopping all the analysis of every conversation, stop messaging ILs and quietly get on with your own life.
As others have said your DD1 needs to feel the full force of LB and come to her own conclusions.
Look up Triangulation, it will show you the roles of Aggressor,Victim and Rescuer.
Sometimes the roles change.
Currently your DD1 is pulling you in as Rescuer inappropriately into her relationship with LB.
Step out of the triangle, resist all attempts to pull you back in and I bet your DD1 will wake up to him.
She is an adult, allow her to be one.

Ps I meant add stop sending her parcels.
Birthday gifts/ Christmas send small but nice gifts that you choose.
This is another example of "Rescuing" but also manipulation by LB.
Key to this and her ending this relationship is allowing her to feel his full force.

*I received a reply about five minutes later, saying no problem about boxes fitting into camper van, they were thinking of visiting some places in the North, such as the Giant's Causeway, as it was a long way to drive and expensive on the ferries to spend two days with LB and DD1. She also said her DD had visited NZ and loved it, although they had never been outside Europe, and again wished me a wonderful trip.

From this I infer that they have been told that they may visit for a maximum of two days, and not until March. DD1 previously told me that, in the list of 'grievances' set out by LB in an email, they had also been told that they would need to help with the cooking as it was too much for DD1, and not to overstimulate the DGC. In short, they have been made to feel so unwelcome, that it is testament to their love for the DGC that they are going at all. Interestingly, the last message to me said that they had not seen the DGC since last July, not that they had not seen LB and DD1 since last July. So I suspect that DD1 is right when she says that they are only interested in the DGC and not in them.*

I disagree with this. I think your DD and LB are probably also treating them badly.

Just mentioning seeing the DGC is just a phrase- I don't understand how you infer from that that they are only interested in the GC. This doesn't prove your DD right at all. She's just LBs mouthpiece.

But really what this shows is how you are still tying yourself in massive knots about them. Analysing everything.

They are playing all of you like a fiddle.

You just need to drop the rope completely on them. This is just hurting you.

When you aren't in DD1s life she can just shut her family away in a closed box, she doesn't have to think or feel about it or feel any conflict.

It both makes her life easier for now but longer term she will feel the full force of LB. It may suit her to live her miserly life and watch her son be treated better then her daughters but it's her choice to make.

@Flipthefrugal I think Chopin has done a lot of what you suggest. She couldn't really avoid any kind of chat with the ILs as they are now responsible for shipping over the mountain of stuff (mostly paid for by Chopin) because Chopin has been put in the dog house. She has resisted the temptation to try to engage with them on anything but a superficial level, and so has avoided the trap of giving LB more ammo.

The next challenge for Chopin is not to bring any gifts back from her amazing holiday for the grandchildren! Which is a shame, but how it has to be.

I too think OP is making progress.

Her honesty regarding DD1's long term behaviour to others, shows that she is emerging from the understanable denial that she thought was protecting her.

If her husband had lived I believe she would have had the strength to face it much sooner with him.

Grief is exhausting and she was protecting herself as she went through it, with only dealing with what she was able for.

She IS gathering herself, and her honesty is testament to that IMO.

This is HER safe space to ruminate and put order to the thoughts swirling around in her head.

She then can receive and re read a variety of perspectives, some gentle, some harsh, but all giving her valuable pause for thought.

It's very normal to not want to burden those around you with all the madness😁that can go on in your head, hence the real value of MN to so many.

Knowledge is power and the OP is getting there.

I think the minute LB's parents have another grandchild they will become happily distracted.

The sooner that happens the better.

I agree completely with the OP trying her level best to drop that rope, cease all gifting except for small gifts for the children of HER choosing, keeping all contact to a bare polite minimum and that she enjoy this holiday to the very best of her ability.

I also think that her mothering will be severely tested as the children grow.

LB 's petty controlling nastiness will become even more apparent as those children grow and try to assert themselves.
That will be when DD1 will be really faced with HER choices.

Wishing you well.

LB's parents have each other to turn to when LB and DD1 kick off, they can travel together and leave at a moment's notice as they have the camper van.
That is such an advantage.
Sadly @ChopinandChampagne doesn't have this other person, experiencing the same treatment, to bounce thoughts off re how to react, as her much loved and missed husband has died and rightly doesn't want to burden her other two daughters discussing the issues.
Remind yourself @ChopinandChampagne that you are doing this solo and you are doing it well.

I think that OP must feel relieved to find out that she is not the only one to be subjected to whims and dictats surrounding visits. Imagine being so self-absorbed that you demand your relatives go to extraordinary extra costs of ferry/campervan/petrol or flights/extra bags/taxis/hotels just to schlepp the stuff that LB and DD could have had delivered - and then insist that, having done them a huge favour costing £500-1,000 - they are limited to max 2 days!

I would caution though C&C that you are not tempted to "bond" too much with the inlaws as you never know how much of what you say may get reported back to LB and DD - innocently or not

I agree with PPs - no more presents and no more being their personal delivery service

You are doing great. I totally agree that the next step is ‘drop the rope’. Plan your trip, enjoy your DDs, build your life. If she’s going to leave him this is the only way it could possibly happen. I know it will be hard but take it on! It’s a project that puts YOU at the centre.

big hugs. x