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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Where is ChopinandChampagne? LB update?

1000 replies

gianfrancogorgonzola · 07/11/2022 12:34

Really hope you see this C&C, I was following your other threads (name change a lot) and wanted to check in to see how you are.

🙏🏼

OP posts:
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5
tribpot · 29/12/2022 18:25

I don't think she's going to answer however many times you call, Chopin. What is the upside for her in doing so? She's shaken you down for everything she's going to get out of you for now, so all that's left is to get you send the stuff. She can claim to be 'too upset' to speak to you and avoid a convo about courier fees.

lessthanathirdofanacre · 29/12/2022 18:41

I'm so sorry that you are having a difficult time. Of course you are. You love your DD and your DGC, and the cruelty you are being subjected to is appalling.

WRT the items that were shipped to your house. In your shoes, I would send everything directly to DD, rather than to LB's parents. Don't play into the pattern of one set of parents being in favour and the other in the doghouse. Also, it will just be a headache for LB's parents anyway. Should your DD pay for a courier? Yes, she should. However, I would just pay the cost and do my best to forget about it. If you suggest that your DD pay, it will almost certainly turn into another source of conflict with more back and forth, more recriminations from DD, more accusations that you really don't need to hear right now. So I would just pack it all up immediately, pay for the courier, and wash my hands of the whole thing. I wouldn't want to keep any of those items in my house for one more day, they would just serve as a reminder of the pain (not that you need to be reminded, but their physical presence would be an additional burden). Getting rid of them could be cathartic.

Obviously, there are other ways to handle things. That's just how I would do it.

Brotherlove · 29/12/2022 18:44

I agree, just box up and send with no conversation
OR
Return all items and get a refund/donate to charity.... whichever, and tell DD oh sorry I already returned the items.

Don't engage in any more nonsense.

And yes, you absolutely need a different therapist. You are not there as a friend or to listen to her issues....arrgh!

ImBlueDab · 29/12/2022 19:01

Wow what an awful message. It's twofold to me, firstly it's cold and calculated, and secondly she has the brass neck to also ask you to put yourself out to sort her items out. Any normal human wouldn't have the nerve. Tell her she's welcome to sort and pay for a courier and you'll do her the favour of packaging it up.

EarringsandLipstick · 29/12/2022 19:08

Oh Chopin 💔

She is looking for a response. As hard as it is, I'd send them on with no note, and no reply.

Just be distant.

I know that runs contrary to your natural inclination but I think it's the only way.

RandomMess · 29/12/2022 19:20

I'd send them direct and let them pay the taxes/duty.

LadyEloise1 · 29/12/2022 19:34

EarringsandLipstick · 29/12/2022 19:08

Oh Chopin 💔

She is looking for a response. As hard as it is, I'd send them on with no note, and no reply.

Just be distant.

I know that runs contrary to your natural inclination but I think it's the only way.

I think so too.
You have posted some wise advice @EarringsandLipstick as has @billy1966.

I certainly wouldn't phone her @ChopinandChampagne.
You can't, for the sake of your mental health ( which impacts physical health ) play her game.
Box up the order, send it off, don't reply to her and change your therapist.

Lunde · 29/12/2022 20:42

Such an unkind message from your dd - she was obviously expecting you to crack and start begging over Christmas and is now angry that her tactics didn't work

How much is there to send? I know you were talking about needing 2 large suitcases to schlepp over all their stuff - so is it 500g or 20kg? She really is a piece of work to blame you, basically ghost you and then expect you to run around to have her shopping delivered! I would not run around after her after her guiltrippy message - if she has ordered stuff she can pay for shipping or arrange for it to be collected and taken to the inlaws.

I would not speak to her - you know that there will just be more of the same - guilt trips and blame

Also think you need a new or additional therapist as it seems the boundaries between friendship and professional therapy have been blurred with your current therapy

Glindara · 29/12/2022 20:49

Send her a text - say you are currently in Oz til Feb and will sort on your return.

Goldpaw · 29/12/2022 21:34

I've tried to call, but obviously didn't get through, so sent a reply saying I'd tried to call to discuss and please ring back tomorrow

Instead of a counsellor, I'd recommend therapy. But that might shine too much of a spotlight on your enabling behaviour to be comfortable.

Wherearemymarbles · 29/12/2022 21:34

Hi Chopin,

I cant remember but did she pay for all the items she sent across or did you?
if it was you just give them to charity, if not, tell them to arrange a courier to collect. Very easy to do with dhl etc

oh and the gc slippers is nothing more than an emotional hook.

one question which you dont have to answer - how many times have you apologised for DD1’s behaviour on her behalf other than the 21st?

As for a reply, simply ‘I’m not your bloody skivvy’ would suffice.
to the point and she is clueless as whether you’ll send them or not!!

Bayleaf25 · 29/12/2022 21:54

Yes , suggest it might be easiest if they arrange the courier. You could offer to box up the essentials and let them know the dimensions/weight. Ask specifically what they would like.

So sorry it has come to this.

Ultravox · 29/12/2022 22:15

Hi Chopin. Although I’m glad to hear that you’ve enjoyed the holidays with DD2 & DD3 and that DD2’s boyfriend sounds lovely, I’m sorry to hear that DD1 has only got in touch for material items and even sorrier to hear that you have jumped to her tune and immediately tried to contact her.

The phone calls you have made make you look desperate. Stay calm. Breathe. Take stock before you reply.

The word “withhold” she uses is interesting. She seems to think that the blame will be on you if you do not send the items on and that you will be “withholding” the items. Yet she is the one who has suggested cutting contact, moving on and “a new life” and “withholding” contact.

A measured response would be a text to say that after her previous contact you assumed that no gifts would be expected and that you had donated them to charity.

Ultravox · 29/12/2022 22:27

Oh and it sounds like you definitely need an additional therapist. I appreciate that you like & trust the current one, but it doesn’t sound like she is experienced in the kind of dynamic that you are caught up with.

Someone with a new perspective might help you shed some light on how best to cope with this situation.

RachelGreeneGreep · 30/12/2022 01:03

Bayleaf25 · 29/12/2022 21:54

Yes , suggest it might be easiest if they arrange the courier. You could offer to box up the essentials and let them know the dimensions/weight. Ask specifically what they would like.

So sorry it has come to this.

She will probably claim that couriers don't exist in Ireland. Spoiler alert - they very much do. As do shops where slippers can be bought. 😁

Your daughter is manipulative beyond belief @ChopinandChampagne I feel so much for you. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult things are for you.

ChopinandChampagne · 30/12/2022 02:39

Thanks for all of your replies. I agree that I need a break from her, as all this is making me ill. I have felt quite sick and she was obviously upset too, but seems to have got over it more quickly. Thank you for all of the support - it really helps.

Yes, part of me does just want to parcel it up and send it and have done with it. The presence of the items is, indeed, painful and they are taking up a lot of space. The easiest thing would be just to send it to LB's DP's UK address, as they requested. In fact, I think I might have suggested myself in the 'phone call, the one where I got upset and said why did I bother as everything was always thrown back in my face. It was such a silly thing to have got upset about - the crosses, I mean. But thanks to those saying that it was inevitable and not to beat myself up.

I don't know about including a note. There is a part of me which inevitably wants to say sorry and try to rebuild the relationship, but I know that it is pointless. Someone mentioned what we did for her in the past. Obviously I don't begrudge anything, it's what parents do, but all of this negates the past, trashes it somehow. And yet, when we have spoken recently, she has waxed lyrical about her childhood, and told me how she always cooks Sunday roasts, just as we used to do when the DC were young. She has always been a bit of a 'Jekyll and Hyde' character, can be very sweet, but then turn nasty, hence why her DGP commented on the 'sting' in her tail.

I actually think, in a way, she will miss the relationship more than I will, as she has no other contact in her life apart from LB, the DGC, the neighbours and sometimes LB's DPs, with whom they also 'have issues'. DD1 liked showing off her DC to me, as DC usually like to share their DC with their DP, and telling me about her life. She had also started confiding in me again, although not to say that she was unhappy with her life or with LB, but more to tell me her 'news' and to complain about LB's DP, the only people outside the home they interact with, apart from the neighbours. However, it made me realise how many traps there were, further down the line, buying too many presents, the wrong types of present, giving the DGC too much attention, ignoring LB and DD, expecting meals and cups of tea etc. But she is more sociable than LB who would happily never see anyone, according to DD.

I had wondered whether or not to have a word with LB's DM when I felt sorry for DD, to ask her to watch out for her, especially now I know she has no bank account, but it wouldn't be fair to involve them, would it? I wouldn't have thought of this, save that I now know that they have concerns for the DGC. They had already sent me a card and texted their new address, saying that they hadn't been able to visit Ireland until January, as LB and DD1 were so busy, so I replied briefly wishing them a happy Christmas, good luck in their new house etc and saying my visit had been cancelled at the last minute and I was blocked again. She replied saying she didn't know what to say, but was so sorry.

I think it does annoy LB and DD when I go on holiday, as they probably think that I should be at home, obsessing about the DGC and doing my knitting, rather than wasting money on expensive holidays. They probably think I should give the money to them instead and it's really bad of me to spend money on luxuries when they are living in such frugality. This will now be bolstered by their new found faith and provides evidence that I am some sort of inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah!

Actually, I had thought of sending my confirmation cross to her with a card saying that it was for her protection and if she needed help anytime I would love her and be there for her but, in view of the latest message, it sounds a bit pathetic, doesn't it? She has made it crystal clear that I am only required to be useful and am dispensable.

It's all the uncertainty really. Do I send gifts for the DGC? I was thinking just a nice card for DGS's birthday, maybe send the DGC a postcard of a kangaroo from Australia (DD had obviously read my Christmas card, as she asked me to send the items before I went on my travels). Maybe just cards on birthdays etc.

I don't know about another therapist. I think once the stuff has been posted, there won't be any contact for a long time, so there won't be anything to talk about. I just need to get on with my life, as best I can.

I won't miss the trips to Ireland, a long way on my own, the cold and mouldy house, lonely nights in the hotel, feeling tense around LB etc. Not to mention the expense, as I was never allowed to book flights too far in advance, so paid top prices, and spent hundreds of pounds on taxis, not to mention the hotel costs. And then there were the increasing demands for stuff from the UK. Also, even as the relationship was growing again with DD1, I felt that she was regressing, that the tentacles of dependency were starting to enmesh me. I was actually very relieved not to go to Ireland before Christmas, although I would have preferred the flights to have been cancelled than I was cancelled.

Somebody said up thread that I was becoming angry, which was a good sign, and that's true. I do feel that I deserve better than this. All of this ghosting and blocking. It's what teenagers do, not 30 year olds. I feel like saying so, but this just increases the dialogue, which is likely to upset me. Which is why I called her really, not to expect a reply, but simply to be the 'grown up'.

I am sorry this is becoming a stream of consciousness. I think I just need to post the stuff and let go. I'll shut up now.

ChopinandChampagne · 30/12/2022 02:51

DD1 probably did intend to hurt me. She can be spiteful. On one occasion when the DC were younger, we ordered a takeaway meal, I think it was Indian or Chinese. DD2 was strictly vegetarian and was very much looking forward to her meal. DD1 deliberately 'contaminated' the vegetarian options by sticking in a 'meaty' spoon, for no reason except to spoil DD2's food. They hadn't even had an argument. It was just casual cruelty.

Another time, when she wasn't so young, I remember that she threw a half full yoghurt pot at her DGF. I felt so ashamed. But DH's DP never criticised our parenting. They just thought that DD1 had an unpleasant streak.

BadNomad · 30/12/2022 02:58

It does seem like you are starting to see the real her a bit more now. Have you ever wondered what your DD has told LB about you? I know it has always seemed like he wanted to isolate her from you, but is it possible he thinks he's trying to protect her from her toxic mother/family or something like that?

You've only heard some of what she thinks about you. It's likely he hears a lot more, and if she has painted you as some wicked woman, then it's understandable that he doesn't want you around. He only knows what she has told him. And it's obvious she has some twisted ideas about you and the past. It might explain why he has always been off with you. He thinks you're bad and that you hurt his wife.

Look at his parents. Do you think they are aware of how LB and DD sees them? What is said about them. Or are they, like you, trying their best but getting stabbed in the back at every turn?

ChopinandChampagne · 30/12/2022 03:03

Quite apart from the above, there is another issue on the horizon, which is likely to prove tricky. I now want to sell the property in France. According to DH's will, his share of the property is to pass to me under English law. However, under French law, the DDs would be entitled to share three quarters of DH's half under the forced heirship laws.

My notaire has advised me that, in order for any purchaser to be satisfied as to title, the DDs need to sign a document saying that they are not making any claim on the property.

I was already worried that LB and DD1 would think I was trying to cheat them out of something rightfully theirs and that this would provoke another conflict, before the latest events. Now I feel that they will just ignore any requests to sign the document or, more likely, will insist on being paid the share to which DD is not actually entitled to. So either I will need to pay them about £100k or it's a stalemate with the property.

I wouldn't even have minded giving some money to the DDs - specifically I want to help DD3 buy a property, but the notaire says that it's better to repatriate the money first for tax reasons.

I really don't know what to do.

ChopinandChampagne · 30/12/2022 03:28

BadNomad - I think you are spot on. DD1 had some mental health issues as a teenager and suffered from OCD for a while, for which she had therapy. She and LB told me that she once tried to attack him with a knife and also tried to get out of a moving car. They both told me that they thought that she had Borderline Personality Disorder, so maybe he does think that she got it from me, that I'm dangerous too and that he is protecting her from me, that I am mad and toxic and all of those things.

And, if you think about it, I did 'lose it' when he refused to leave my house and DD1 was locked in the bathroom, shouting at him to leave or I would call the police. I probably did seem deranged. He doesn't seem to get angry, just cold and resentful and holds on to grudges. I seldom get upset or 'lose it' and DH and I never quarrelled, we were just so happy and understood each other so well. But DD1 can be very emotional and LB told her that she gets her 'bat shit craziness from me'.

DD1 has told me in the past that LB protects her. She is someone who likes to feel protected. She once told me that she likes being short, as it makes men feel protective of her. She has absolutely blind faith in LB to the extent where I feel she doesn't exercise her own judgment, such as refusing to have a survey carried out on the house before purchase, as LB wouldn't let them live anywhere that wasn't safe.

So he will regard my getting upset and angry on the telephone as another sign that I am mentally unstable and not a fit person to be in DD1's life or his DC's lives. Maybe he is right. It will be interesting to see how their family dynamic works out. DGD2 is already showing signs of middle child syndrome. She had hardly time to be the baby of the family when DGS arrived and I sense that he is going to be the golden child. It's the one thing which haunts me from my last visit, her sweet trusting little face.

REignbow · 30/12/2022 03:55

I personally wouldn’t speak to her. Radio silence! Her message was very passive aggressive and was to try and using her DC to make you feel bad.

So she was upset that she hurt her DF… she was only upset, because she couldn’t manipulate and twist it to be your fault. She bought her dying father a book about people dying and being killed at concentration camps! From your other descriptions of how she’s behaved in the past, this should tell you this is who she is. People to her are collateral damage. She couldn’t give two hoots (BTW I’m a scorpio!).

Just courier everything over to them and let them pay for the duty (which will be very painful for them).

I wouldn’t included a note.

Go and explore the world and use the time to think without emotion.

In regards to the French property….that’s very tricky.

Personally, I don’t think she’d sign over her share to you at all. They would come up with some story saying they needed the money and by French law you would have to give it to them. I think keep the property for now.

Netaporter · 30/12/2022 06:32

@ChopinandChampagne I’m very sorry to see you are posting in the small hours again. It’s horrible when something like this keeps you awake. I have an ongoing family issue and it definitely affects your MH even if you think you are coping or rising above it. It can be very pervasive.

Sadly, in my experience, where there’s a will there’s a wanker. In our case a much older LB who also thinks he’s much cleverer than the rest of us.

Re: the French house, I’d get your ducks in a row before making contact. Assume that DD1/LB have no intention of playing ball and signing the papers. So, maybe get an UK solicitors to send a formal letter which explains that she is required to sign the enclosed paperwork as a formality within a defined timeframe and that under UK inheritance laws no DD is entitled to their Father’s share but will pass as intended to you and then after into your Estate. Explain your other DD’s have signed and that you had hoped to do this in person but sadly they had cancelled the trip for you to make contact. You do not need to explain your plans for your estate or the French law to her, let LB spend money on a lawyer to establish what you know. Explain contact is to be made via the solicitor only and contact us to be made with DD1 not anyone else. I’d include the letter and paperwork in the parcel with the special slippers as you know she is going to open it. That way, you can feel justified paying for the courier as it serves a greater purpose and you have proof of signature. Make sure the solicitor mentions this in the letter and take a photo of the letter in the box. As a back up, Can you explain to the notaire that you are estranged from DD1, she is under coercive control and that matters are complicated? There must be arrangements for this sort of issue in France otherwise no property subject to a will would ever be sold?

If (as you think) they’ll want paying out the £100k, I’d give it to them as a price for your MH and a reason for you to go LC/NC. I’d then without their knowledge, consider it an early inheritance and then disinherit DD1 from the wider estate you pass on. You’d be genuinely justified in doing so and leave a letter explaining why you have done what you have done. Make it bombproof for your other DD’s and make sure they have POA’s over your affairs which are set up way before old age sets in.

I’d also let LB’s DP’s know you need paperwork signing. I’d say they’d probably get scales falling from the eyes if their son effectively blocks you from selling something to make your life more comfortable.

I hope you get some rest at some point. I’d say NZ cannot come too soon!

Billybagpuss · 30/12/2022 07:02

Is the French property in joint names do you not own half?

how about wording it ‘in order to comply with your df wishes the French authorities need you to sign this.

I'm sorry I do think this is going to be stressful as I think they will ignore you. The only other options are for you to either turn up with it, or hire a local solicitor to d visit them.

Billybagpuss · 30/12/2022 07:03

Or play them at their own game, you’ll send the packages when they’ve signed the document

tribpot · 30/12/2022 07:06

Chopin, you really do need therapy to be better placed to deal with the next conflict. You are in an abusive relationship with DD1 and LB, and you need to find better coping mechanisms. Even if things are quiet for a few months, this will continue to distress you forever unless you do something about it.

With the French house, there isn't a hope in hell of them signing away their share for now, so I would give them a simple choice - they can have their share upon sale, minus the French taxes that will be incurred, but her inheritance from you will be reduced by the same amount, or they can sign the document along with the other two DDs.

And crucially no discussion will be entered into. They can seek their own legal advice before making a decision but you won't be discussing it with them.

I would definitely ensure that your estate can't be raided by them later on by putting a POA in place which excludes her, as @Netaporter says.

Please don't put a note in with the stuff. She has coldly asked you to send it, so just send it. And absolutely do not send her your confirmation cross. LB will have it sold and the money pocketed by him, and it's just something else that they can use to abuse you later, as your confirmation wasn't Catholic and therefore you are trying to disrespect their religion again, blah blah blah.

For the DGC, I would just send a birthday card, no gifts at all. You can put money aside for them to have when they're older.

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