Where is ChopinandChampagne? LB update?

[gianfrancogorgonzola]

Really hope you see this C&C, I was following your other threads (name change a lot) and wanted to check in to see how you are.

🙏🏼

said it was cold her but looking forward to going to Australia/NZ in the new year for some warmth

They will moan to themselves that you're taking a trip when they think you should be spending all your money on them.

Hey ho.

Well done Chopin. That’s a great message. It really gets across that you are breezy about not going to Ireland and that you are looking forward to doing things that don’t involve them, but that you are still sending love to them.

I hope you have a very peaceful Christmas.

Well done for dropping the rope and not trying to tie yourself in knots trying to appease their ever shifting demands.

Prepare for some pushback when they realise that you will not chase after them - keep being bland and breezy

Well done.
I'd not have mentioned the Aus trip tbh.
But, ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

Good update @ChopinandChampagne - I'm in NZ at the moment visiting my DDad & it's really uplifting being somewhere warm. You'll have a well-deserved break. In the meantime, try to focus on your other DDs, knowing you've done what you can for DD1. As others have said, brace yourself for sulking & resentment from LB but try to let it ride over you...

Have a Happy Christmas Chopin!

Be prepared for a “crisis” in Ireland just before you set off on your antipodean holiday, just to throw you. You may be either expected to transfer a wedge of cash no questions asked or drop everything to go and help out. Keep your holiday plans vague.

I understand why you want to think your daughter is a good mother but she wouldn’t be thought of as such by many objective standards.

Lb is obviously pulling a power play move in cancelling your trip, he’s trying to punish you and show you who’s boss as you didn’t do as you were told.

hope you have a calm Christmas.

Chopin I’ve followed your posts before & my heart goes out to you.

It’s so reminds me of a similar family situation. It’s been over 30 years now & the families have never rejoined.

One narcissist can upset families & apple carts.

It was so hard in the beginning & this was a cousin thing so I can only imagine the hurt & bewilderment when it’s your own child.

It was always everyone else’s fault & they have never ever looked at their own behaviour.

When I think of the damage they caused I’m still angry not for me but for other family members who had to toe the line so they could continue seeing the children.

I’m told the cycle continues.

Merry Xmas Chopin! I hope you've had a good day.

Thinking of you @ChopinandChampagne as I have done since your last thread. I was rooting for you and am sad that there was no resolution.
DD1 seems to be a victim of coercive control / financial abuse but hasn't seen that yet, sadly.
She knows deep down though that there is a safe harbour for her. Some day soon I hope she'll travel to it.
I do hope you had a nice Christmas with DD2 and DD3.

I missed the updates from 15 December on as the thread fell down my 'I'm On' list.

I have just caught up.

Firstly, I hope you've had a lovely Christmas, despite this horrible situation. I hope you've had time with DD2 & 3, and peace and happiness together, though you'll be missing DH hugely I know.

I am also really pleased you have the Aus / NZ trip planned - I think that's going to give you great emotional, as well as physical distance, for long enough so that you will maybe be able to make significant change in your relationship with DD1.

I just wanted to pick up on one line in particular in your posts:

I actually feel very sorry for DD1 in all this, as she was genuinely so happy to have me back in her life and was so looking forward to my visit.

This is a fallacy. I absolutely accept that DD has been manipulated over years by LB, and that he is controlling. I think what is understandably hard for you to see is that it's now not LB alone behaving like this and directing behaviour. That message came from DD. It wasn't written by LB - even the language and tone is consistent with her previous communications.

You need to stop feeling sorry for her. She is treating you abusively, as she has your DD2 (who excellently, DGAF, and carries on her life happily).

In a situation in my own life, with counselling, I realised I allowed family members (one very close to me), to treat me very badly. I kept going back & back & trying to 'please' them. I have come to accept their treatment of me is not about me, but reflective of their own happiness. But I have to step back and just be less available (physically and emotionally).

My situation is nothing as serious as yours, and the family members concerned have a lot of good in them too.

However the important part is setting a boundary, and not believing I 'had' to be available just because they were my family.

For you, in 2023, I wish you could step away from DD & her family, and yes, that limits your contact with DGC, sadly - but that contact is already managed & transactional. Your DD may well be a victim; but she is also not a good kind or caring daughter - she treats you like shit, and has done so for years to you & DH

Set boundaries that will give you some emotional freedom. No gifts, perhaps a certain amount of money for DGC, recognising it will probably not be spent on them though. Short, minimal interactions - quick texts; no phone calls; scant information about your life. Your Christmas card was perfect - and I'm glad you told her you were going away; it lets her see you've your own life & priorities.

You always write so eloquently. But at such length & in depth - you explore every facet of the relationship, over & over. Of course you do! You are desperate to understand and to achieve change. But you can't. Maybe something will change with DD. Maybe. But for now, please step away. And in a way forget about LB. He's vile of course; but DD is a terrible human being too who has taken advantage of all your love & support.

You can give more to your relationships with DD2 & 3, when you step away.

Also, please share some of this with them, I see you didn't want to burden them. They love you, of course they'll listen. It doesn't have to be endless - but don't feel you can't talk some bit with them.

And also, don't ever feel bad about posting here. It's an outlet. Posters offer suggestions & advice. You might find some of it helpful. But you are never under an obligation to act a certain way. This is your real life, and as good as MN can be, it's simply an online forum at the end of the day. However, I think so many of us here are rooting for you; you are a lovely, deeply caring mother and deserve happiness.

I wish you peace, and distance from LB & DD, in 2023 💐

Hope you had a lovely Christmas @ChopinandChampagne

@gianfrancogorgonzola
Thank you for this thread. I had searched to no avail wondering how C&C was.
I was wondering how her DD1 was getting on in the west of Ireland ( I live in Dublin ), having relations out west myself and knowing a little of what life can be like there.
I didn't want to private message her as I thought it was far too intrusive.

Thank you everyone for your posts, especially over Christmas. LannieDuck - I can't believe that you would think of posting on Christmas Day itself, but I am so grateful to you, and to all of you. I read all of the messages, but thought I should step away from the thread over the Christmas period. I am conscious what some posters have said about focusing on my issues with DD1 to the potential detriment of DD2 and DD3, so wanted to focus on them at this time.

We had a happy Christmas Day and DD2's boyfriend also came. The relationship is clearly becoming serious and I couldn't be happier. It is so different from the situation with LB, who ironically shares the same first name. He is so kind and courteous and caring of DD2 and does just simple things like offering to help with setting up the table and clearing away and saying thank you. My pets also adore him, which is always a good sign, as I believe animals have very good instincts in these matters! 🤣

However, to be honest, I have fallen into a bit of a pit of despair since Boxing Day. Despite everything, I love DD1 with every fibre of my being - how could I not - whereas at the same time I am still engulfed by the pain and anger at her previous actions, which is all bound up with the grief at losing DH. I am so annoyed with myself at losing control of my emotions, which I did, and in losing that detachment, I have squandered the opportunity of rebuilding the relationship, which I believe I was starting to do. Or, at least, she was wanting to revert to our former relationship but wary, as she knew I was still upset. On my part, the scars still run deep and, in not allowing me to attend the baptism and rejecting the gifts, the scab was poked off and all of my emotions were released, like a pan which boiled over or a pressure cooker which exploded.

I now feel that my relationship with DD1 will never be repaired and I wonder if I will ever see her again. It is like another bereavement, actually four bereavements if you include the DGC, and I am finding it so difficult to cope with. I would like to think that the argument might have 'cleared the air', but I know that it won't have. On the contrary, LB will now clamp down and reassure her that her pain - which I know she also feels - is because of me, that she is better off without me. The thing which really upset her is my mention of DH and how she also hurt him. And it is true that she can't speak to him now to clarify anything, so she thinks that I am 'cruel' and set out to deliberately hurt her, which I didn't, but I should not have mentioned him. I should have ended the call as I wanted to, dealt with my upset privately, regained my composure and preserved my detachment.

I have not sent any further communication since the Christmas card and I don't intend to, as I really don't know what to say. Any contact seems to be destined to cause pain to us both. And she is right to focus on preserving her health and needs to put her children and her marriage first. I think she is actually quite fragile at present and needs all of her energy to survive. It must be so hard to have three such young children to care for, with a husband who does very little to help, and living in such difficult conditions. And, with my outburst, I have placed another demand on her, which has affected her badly, as it has me. I am in a situation where there are no winners, no answers, no solutions. It's a maze where I can never find my way out, just wandering and wandering and seeking and seeking, but never finding, becoming lost and frustrated until all sense of reality is gone.

At least I have my therapy today, which is with the same person as since DH died. She is actually more of a friend these days, and sometimes confides in me about her own problems, but she really cares about me and is always there for me. She absorbs a lot of my pain, for which I am grateful, as otherwise I think it would just eat me up, like acid corroding me from inside out.

I know this is a self indulgent post, but EarringsandLipstick and others have been kind enough to say that they don'y mind my posting, and I figure that people don't have to read my posts if they don't want to. And it does help me to write things down. Also, I have looked back at the last couple of threads (I had the earlier ones deleted), which reminds me of what actually happened. When DD1 says that I am clinging to my own 'warped' version of the past, it gives some reassurance to know that I haven't invented it all, that it's not a figment of my imagination.

But I do feel that I have killed whatever love she may have had for me and I feel utterly broken.

Some posters have said that DD1 has been cruel and others that she is the victim of an abusive relationship. Perhaps both are true. With hindsight, she can be quite unkind. DH's parents always found her difficult, although they treated her equally well and were very involved with all the DDs when they were younger. They actually moved to be close to us and saw a lot of them, came round for lunch most Sundays etc. They used to 'joke' that it must be because of her birth sign of 'Scorpio' that she had such a sting in her tail (apologies to all Scorpios!).

My MIL died at the beginning of this year and was suffering from dementia, although she had a lot of 'clear' moments. She said she would not recognise DD1 if she tripped over her in the street. She was quite lonely in her last years and incapacitated by back pain. It would have meant such a lot to her to have known that she had a DGGD and to have met her. She met her DGGDs once only, at DH's funeral.

I remember that DD1 had some pet rabbits that she would just neglect and it would be left to me or one of her friends to care for them, although I was working and commuting, so could do little more than feed them. They were fed etc but she never gave them any care or attention, after the novelty wore off. I could hear them banging their heads against their cage in frustration and they became vicious. In the end, my FIL released them and I was worried that they would be ok, but anything had to be better than the life they had, just shut up 24/7.

She didn't attend her best friend's 21st birthday party, as she couldn't be bothered, causing a lot of upset to her friend, who is absolutely lovely. I was also friendly with the friend's parents and they were not at all impressed that their DD had been upset on her birthday. To spare everyone's feelings, I said that DD1 had been ill, which probably wasn't the right thing to do, but I didn't like to say she couldn't be bothered. Actually, I think that might have been just after she met LB. She was also due to attend a reunion with this friend and four other close friends from school a year or two later, and the same friend had cooked a special meal, which would have included vegan options for DD1, but she just pulled out at the last minute. Admittedly, it was a long journey, but she let everyone down.

She generally got on well with DD2, but let her down over her graduation, which is the subject of a previous thread. She didn't really get on with DD3 - she didn't dislike her or anything, but wasn't much of a big sister, and didn't even send her a card for her 18th or 21st.

In our last conversation DD1 said that she couldn't go NC with one family member without going NC with all of them. Now she will have persuaded herself, with the help of LB, that it was obviously right to cut herself off from me, so I am wholly responsible for her lack of contact with other family members and all of their pain. And the trouble is, I am actually starting to believe it. Although it doesn't explain why she cut off her friends. She told me at the time it was because she was 'on a different path'.

I too have followed and commented on your previous threads and am so sorry that once again you are in this situation.
Your emotions are there to tell you something is very wrong and needs to change.
Why as women do we berate ourselves for not controlling our emotions, when they serve to tell us of danger etc?
It was inevitable that you could not keep up the false, polite, aquiesence for ever.
You are so very truthful and heartfelt here, but when communicating to DD1 is clear that tension and reserve is communicated. To the point you just cant keep up that act, nor should you.
Please do not be hard on yourself, you have walked this tightrope for far too long.
I dont think there is a solution right now. Its sad, I am now estranged from my adult son as it was making me ill. But I have peace from the emotional abuse so send him love when I think of him. Some situations need a lot of time.
You still make a lot of excuses for DD1, you dont have to do that either she is what she is, but you can choose not to keep going back for more abuse.
I really hope the new year is more peaceful for you and you continue to have wonderful support.

I’ve seen your posts as well
It really seems she and LB only tolerate you for what you can buy for them; she is in an abusive relationship but she’s also not necessarily a very kind person herself.

Save the only life you can, your own
Hopefully your holiday in February will give you more space and perspective. Focus on your other daughters. I’m sure dd1 will come back when she wants something but it’s up to you to decide whether you want all this stress

Hi Chopin, glad to hear you had a nice Christmas and lovely to hear about DD2’s boyfriend ❤️

You mention rebuilding the relationship and being sad that is now lost, but looking outside-in, it didn’t have the genuine foundations of a real relationship so was always bound to collapse at some point, it was just a matter of time. As previous poster said, you were kept on a tightrope. It was a degree of communication yes, but not open or honest and only on permitted scripts which you had to stay within.

I mean, the example of the bunnies is shocking and quite sad, and rather a metaphor really. Bunnies were loved and cared for while cute/new/complying but then cast aside…..

The thing which really upset her is my mention of DH

I mean, how could she not know that she’d hurt her Dad?! She just doesn’t like it being pointed out, she wants to be able to switch the blame over to others and she can’t do that to her late Dad, so that blame can deflect and switch over to you….

I hope the counselling helps Chopin, the situation is what it is, but hoping some reflection helps you view it a bit more impartially and stop castigating yourself for things you haven’t done or caused ❤️ and wishing you a calmer, peaceful 2023 and hope your trip is amazing ❤️

Oh Chopin I'm glad to hear you had a good Christmas, and lovely to have had DD2's BF, which gives you an insight into a happy & healthy relationship for your DD.

I'm so sorry to hear how low you are; utterly understandable, especially at this time of year that is inevitably so family oriented.

This is very sad to read: But I do feel that I have killed whatever love she may have had for me and I feel utterly broken.

You must hold onto the fact that you didn't kill any love. I also believe DD1 will always know, no matter what, that you love her.

Your next post I think is hopeful - I agree that DD1 is definitely in an abusive relationship and this is very sad. But you are right to think that this is possible, as well as DD being a selfish, hurtful person. Both can be true.

I think the way forward for you, is probably holding several different truths at the same time - DD1's abusive relationship; her appalling treatment of you & all the family; your love for her but rejection of her poor behaviour, and your decision to step away from the pain she has caused.

You have a full rich life still to lead, notwithstanding your very sad loss of DH. You have great plans ahead - your trip to Australia & NZ - and you cannot give over your life & happiness to someone who doesn't deserve it & causes you such pain.

As hard as it is now, you are, I think, seeing a way ahead, as well as finding some anger, and not being willing to appease DD incessantly.

I would guess your hands-off approach may also have the best chance of some renewed contact with DD, when she realises you are not going to chase her for some crumbs of contact. 💐

In our last conversation DD1 said that she couldn't go NC with one family member without going NC with all of them. Now she will have persuaded herself, with the help of LB, that it was obviously right to cut herself off from me, so I am wholly responsible for her lack of contact with other family members and all of their pain. And the trouble is, I am actually starting to believe it. Although it doesn't explain why she cut off her friends. She told me at the time it was because she was 'on a different path'.

OP, this is classic abusive / gaslighting behaviour. Sadly, because you are a lovely & reasonable person, you believe it must somehow be your fault.

It's not - DD is responsible for her own relations (with you & her sisters) - you are not. The reality is her DSis don't want a relationship with her, and especially DD2 (I remember the whole graduation saga too), and so have distanced themselves.

As you point out, how does that work with friends?

I think DD1 has always been troubled, and in some way is drawn to LB as part of that. Which is really sad, and not what you want for your daughter that you love.

Glad you had a lovely Christmas @ChopinanChampagne but sorry to read that you've had difficult days since. You simply must not hold yourself responsible for DD1's decision to go NC with the family - that is her decision, she is the person responsible for it. As you've mentioned, she did not have good relationships with other family members, including her siblings, anyway. I hope that your therapist can lift your spirits. Sending love & strength.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf2CC73eKqk

I came across the notion of “betrayal trauma” in the short video above recently and there are lots of layers that might ring true for you and the situation with your DD1 - and then you had another huge trauma with the illness and death of your husband when you were already in the depths of this one.

I also think @EarringsandLipstick insightful comment is important

“I think the way forward for you, is probably holding several different truths at the same time - DD1's abusive relationship; her appalling treatment of you & all the family; your love for her but rejection of her poor behaviour, and your decision to step away from the pain she has caused.”

Your narrative hasn’t changed, the facts haven’t changed. Her / their actions and choices were brutal and cruel over the years and were aimed to punish you all.

Was the comment about having to be NC with all of a family if NC with one referring to your DH? Is she rewriting history now so that she can point the finger firmly at you as to why she was not in contact with her DF?

Our personal emotions are vital and they are our barometer and accurate information source as to what’s going on in the outside world with our personal boundaries, expectations and emotional safety so that we can make choices, change direction, communicate etc to remain in tact. The dynamic with DD1 doesn’t allow you to be able to process, express and adapt or have any personal agency to respond authentically to these threats and transgressions. It’s a very unnatural situation - a power play where you have to swallow it.

Maybe you got too close, too entangled, too exhausted with their demands, tried too hard for too long. Also a very difficult time of year - another Christmas without your DH. No one could be as resilient as you. They are giving you smaller and smaller hoops to jump through - it was just a matter of time.

Maybe take a break from the tight rope.

You do not need to berate yourself for the one and only time you spoke the truth about how your DD1 choices and behaviours brought distress to your DH in his final years.

That is his truth, your truth, the truth.

Your DD1 knows it too but can’t tolerate it so will project out and blame you.

Maybe it needed to be said to shatter the falseness.

You do not need to berate yourself for the one and only time you spoke the truth about how your DD1 choices and behaviours brought distress to your DH in his final years.

That is his truth, your truth, the truth.

I agree 💯 with this from Glindara.

I think the final line (re truth) could serve as a kind of mantra fir when you are low / doubting yourself.

Hi Chopin,
glad you had a lovely Christmas and sorry you are feeling so low.
From your posts I have one observation and one recommendation.
the recommendation is to find an additional therapist do deals within abusive relationships. I think this would help enormously as self blame seems to be a very common theme in these situations. maybe contact women’s aid for some names as i am sure they have list.

The observation is that in my experience grandparents are far far more perceptive regarding their GC than parents are (for obvious reasons) and its very telling that DH’s parents found DD1 difficult. And thats them being polite.
From your previous posts I have wondered if DD1 was an accident waiting to happen as it were and in LB she has found fuel for her fire. Your most recent ones only add more weight to this. I think the right therapist might really help you unpick all this.

Thats quite a list!

I am not the least bit surprised.

Very cavalier towards family and friends.

These people have self respect and are now done with her.

She doesn't deserve any further consideration from them IMO.

The disregard for her animals is also very consistent with how she hurts discards, and moves on.

I think you have been excusing her behaviour for a very long time.

Lying for her to her best friend and family is very strange behaviour IMO.
She behaved really badly and your reaction was to be dragged into it.
She was 21.
An adult.
Take the time to examine that incident honestly.

The above post is a very good one and the beginning of you being really honest with yourself.

Keep remembering, keep writing.

All these years you have put LB as the centre of all wrongdoing.

But for us reading your posts, it is abundantly clear your daughter has long been an very detached person with little regard for who or what she does.

She has hurt those closest to her over many years.

This IS who she is.

Is it all she is?

Of course not.

People are rarely one single thing.
They are complicated.

BUT, she has long had huge capacity to be a deeply unkind hurtful, dismissive person, of those around her.

Another HUGE part of her personality is to lash out and blame others whilst utterly refusing to take ANY responsibility for how she has behaved and how she has hurt others.

To mention her behaviour is "cruel".

You were blessed with a truly good man who proved to be a wonderful husband and father.
He loved and adored you all, and was at his core kindness, decency and honour combined.

My goodness you were so blessed to have found each other and had each other for so long.

Unfortunately his last years were marked by her casual deliberate cruelty, drama and selfishness.

Of course you are angry.
How could you not be?

How could you not be absolutely furious on behalf of such a lovely man?

You do yourself a huge disservice by remaining in so much denial about your justified fury of something that is unfixable.

Until you really embrace the truth of what happened, who she really is, the upset she has inflicted on those around her for many many years, you are going to remain in the pain you are in.

You are only going to find a bit of peace by being 100% honest.

Honest about who she really is.
Who she has been for a long time.
Honest about the enormous grief she has caused.
Honest about your white fury that she could have caused such pain and grief to a father who only ever wanted the best for her.

Yes of course you love her, and always will.
She is your child.

But she has always had capacity to injure those around her and cause pain.

She does that to this day.

Yes LB is an odious little man, but my goodness she has embraced him and his view of her family with great ease.

From their earliest relationship she monetised her relationship with you and your husband with extraordinary speed and entitlement.
All consistent with the character you describe above.

I wish you the very best for '23.

I wish you truth on your road to peace.

Your best chance of getting to a place of peace is to be truthful with yourself, accept the truth of that place, accept that you have every right to feel your fury, accept her for who she really is, that you love her, but have to accept who she really is and that you cannot fix or change her.
If she were to ever leave LB, it is unlikely that she would be very different to whom she has always been.
Self absorbed and entitled with little interest in how her actions impact others.

LB is awful, but she was very well formed when she met him.

My apologies if this is long winded!

Wishing you the best.