So fed up and think I give up on men

[Missillusioned78]

I am 44. I would really like a fulfilling equal relationship.

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed.

I have a full life of work, friends, hobbies and my wonderful children. I am not rich but getting by with my home. We are happy.

I am SO disappointed with men. Don’t know whether to just give up

Hm, well wouldn’t you have a fear of a group of individuals if you knew, statistically, you are more likely to encounter someone from that group who will harm you (particularly if you may struggle to defend yourself)? Yes not all men, but enough to be a statistical problem (as in, it’s more statistically prevalent in that group) and the who, how, when and to what extent is the terrifying unknown.

As to why it’s more prevalent we have to ask this, as it affects men and women.

I like males though, I guess I have to. I have one husband and two sons so am, in theory, very outnumbered.

What isn't mentioned as muchl is you see numerous accounts of strangers stepping in to help, they tend to be males.

My husband and growing into young men boys are all gallant, my husband has challenged misogynistic comments with a groupsof men he has been with in tlhe pub. He will call people out. My son could handle the playground slapping until a boy hit a girl then he went loopy-lou.

Yes they can be mouthy and brash. But they, their raw nature, is protective, strong, caring they are all amazing. They are soft, kind, devoted.

They are good human beings. They thrive on being good.

There are many, many many men IRL whom are like this (myp lot are nothing special I just mention them because we are together a lot if there were masks they would have slipped).

Everyone seems to be in competition with each other, men v other men, women v other women, men v women.

It's just not like this, real life, life away from Instagram. It might be better to celebrate the male/female differences. To appreciate each other a bit more and for more decency to be in this world. We all have to live in the same society.

Well, in my 40+ decades of life, the only people who have ever raised a hand to me, or physically hurt me have been male. Without exception.

I have been attacked in the street by a man I didn't know.

Punched in the face and had to fight off a man who was trying to drag me off somewhere.

Mauled when out at night trying to have a nice time, by men I didn't know, so many times I've given up counting.

And attacked in my own home by a man I DID know. He tried to strangle me.

And I don't know a SINGLE female friend of mine who has not either been physically hurt or felt physically intimidated by a male at some point during their lives.

It's a problem. Because we know statistically we are very much less able to defend ourselves.

I say this as a mother of a beautiful son who shows no sign of aggression or hurtful behaviour. I feel so sad to think that women will be afraid of him when he grows up.
But they will be.

Interesting name. Maths background? @SittingCat

No, but I thought you'd ask that.

Thank you for your thoughts about Love, interesting 3 stages, your own theory ?
Would be interesting if you could elaborate upon the 3rd stage, I think I could handle it.
In regards to love lasting, do you think there could be an optimum model which could enable these stages lasting longer ?

That's a fancy way of saying 'most men aren't picky,' which I imagine is widely accepted here

That depends, it's often cited when men have affairs but when it comes to OLD dating many 40 year old females would probably disagree.

which has, unfortunately and paradoxically, led to them competing themselves out of the dating market

Do you think you could have competed youself out of the debating market Cat.

I understand you're getting some flack here, I do wonder where you have saunted in from, some sabbatical from the house of Lords maybe 😂

The core of my belief is that honest conversations lead to more
constructive and sustainable outcomes. However, we live in a society
where everyone takes offence at the slightest criticism or suggestion
that they need to change in some way. And that goes for both men and
women

I do agree with this, it appears many want to cut off debate and are offended or offended on the behalf of someone else, I suppose you have views upon the university woke learning that seems to be almost akin to religion.
Independant thoughts and thinking are being discouraged in my opinion.

I'm not an academic as I'm sure you've all gathered but I do like listening, and hearing different views.

True - but how many of those men, in their mid 40's, aren't already in committed relationships?

@whenithits

women’s labour is also generally valued less than mens

Is it? I think this is another one of those phrases that gets thrown around a lot and repeated as fact, when it isn't. The Equal Pay Act has been in place in the UK since 1970; if you genuinely believe that female labour is being paid less because of her gender then there is clear recourse to get whats yours and damages on top. If this were truly a problem, we would see countless firms advertising on TV to represent women on a no win no fee basis.

All too often, 'equal pay' is conflated with the 'gender pay gap,' which is another complete misuse of statistics. Here is a video of Kate Andrews, someone I very much respect for her ability to see through BS, calmly dismantle the gender pay gap arguments whilst Stella Creasy flaps around in response.

Hm, well wouldn’t you have a fear of a group of individuals if you knew, statistically, you are more likely to encounter someone from that group who will harm you (particularly if you may struggle to defend yourself)? Yes not all men, but enough to be a statistical problem (as in, it’s more statistically prevalent in that group) and the who, how, when and to what extent is the terrifying unknown.

I have a lot of sympathy for the misunderstanding as like I said, many people do not understand statistics and there are a lot of counter-intuitive results. But I need to be clear here; what you have posted above is completely factually incorrect. Its to do with the altering of the sets we are discussing using prior information; Bayes Theorem.

Violent crime is concentrated in a small number of individuals. I found a study from Sweden where 1% of the population accounted for 2/3rds of all violent crime. Now that is 'population' which includes female offenders, and it is all violent crime which includes non offences against the person (ie. Robbery) and offences against men (as I've already stated, men are overall far more likely to be the victims of violent crime, and that is true across countries) whereas we only want to limit our findings to violent crimes against women.

All this is to say that < 1% of men are responsible for violence against women. Simultaneously, we might imagine that 0.1% of women commit violence against women. Thus, you end up with > 90% of all violence being perpetrated by men whilst simultaneously the vast majority of men commit no violence towards women whatsoever.

To put this in context, here is he breakdown of the number of people in federal prisons in the US by gender;

www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_gender.jsp

93% male. But 'only' 147k male offenders.

The US is a bit weird and also includes local & country jails so thats not the entire US male prison population - but the US is a country of 330 million people, presumably of which 160 ish million of them being male. I wouldn't be attaching fears to all of them based on the actions of a incredibly small subset of them.

Whilst 'you are more likely to encounter someone from that group who will harm you' is a correct statement, the better statement is that 'you are incredibly unlikely to meet anyone from either group that would harm you.' And the statement, 'enough to be a statistical problem,' is patently false.

@QueenCamilla

stop reading into bloody bro-science statistics

I cited studies publish on the website of the National Library of Medicine, which is an arm of the US government. This isn't 'bro-science,' its peer reviewed academic study. You can't call it 'bro-science' just because you don't like the results.

or at least take your niche hobby elsewhere!

If you can't refute the points being made, the rational response is to conclude your view is incorrect. Its not to tell someone to 'go away' so that you can remain in your little bubble and have everyone continue to believe. This is the argumentative strategy that the flat-earther's use; 'Take your evidence elsewhere and leave us in peace to believe the earth is flat.'

Your views on the REALITY of male violence and aggression are abhorrent

I didn't post 'views,' everything I posted in the response to Sosillysilly was a statement of fact and was backed up there or previously. Go back and read the post if you don;t believe me.

I see this a lot, and its insidious; the characterising of an alternative position as a 'view' or 'opinion,' because opinions can be disagreed with and ignored.

And like a lot of women many will have simply given up on dating and be getting on with their lives.

I think most single men and women over 50 are done with relationships but happy to go OLD as a form of window shopping/ ego boost. There are exceptions but I think this is why people get disappointed, it's because few people are making a real effort to find someone.

That may be true, and explain a lot of the issues. Everyone wants to feel wanted but not everyone plans on offering the same!

@SittingCat

What I mean is, “womens work” is less valued - although pay is a reflection of this. I understand women and men must be paid the same to perform the same job in the same company. Why is it that women generally receive lower rates of pay in female dominated industries than men do in male dominated industries? Are women simply choosing industries of work that pay less - why is this? If they were male dominated, would the pay rate be higher? Of course it’s anecdotal of me to say I’ve been told myself (and many other women have been to) that all they do is ‘sit at home all day with the baby watching tv’ when I can say child care is easily one of the most challenging (not technically difficult) roles I have had to fulfil. “Womens work” is undervalued. You can see this in attitudes to SAHM and single mothers, although they are raising the next generation of workers. I do feel working class labour as a whole is undervalued anyway, and it’s a sickening remark for anyone to say that “those who can’t afford children shouldn’t have them” - low income families have low incomes because their labour is not socially valued, but that’s going off on a tangent.

You talk as though this is a misunderstanding exclusive to women, though. Some people (although far less admittedly) have an irrational fear of sharks - although shark attacks do occur, at a fairly rare rate, I’m sure wandering into the sea around Florida, although statistically so very unlikely, you might think “I hope I don’t get attacked by a shark”, you’re less likely to have these thoughts in the sea around Britain. The difference being, if someone has in irrational fear of sharks they can avoid all sea swimming and be sure they will not encounter and be bitten by a shark. Some women have a fear of men, which might be considered statistically irrational, but on an individual basis if a women has experienced a disproportionately high level of encounters with violent/aggressive men and been harmed at this disproportionate rate then it is not irrational on her individual level of belief, women also can’t avoid men in daily life.

Generally women are not afraid of men (at least in the U.K.), going to the shop, or visiting the doctors or in other daily activities, but there are compounding factors that would statistically increase her chance of being harmed by a man (who have a greater prevalence of committing violent and sexual crimes), albeit perhaps it is small but I don’t have that data, but simply being female is part of these compounding factors.

It’s not any single statistic, although it is relevant.

To say that the rates of male perpetrators of violent (and we should be including sexual) crimes is not statistically significant well - who decides when violence is not enough violence? Who considers wether 1% of the population is or isn’t enough violence to be a social concern/community problem? Do you feel that “feminists” bleating on about male perpetrators of violent and sexual crimes (against women) as being worrying is some kind of conspiracy to induce man hating? We all know that the statistics reflecting rape and sexual assault (and I’m sure as reported by men, too) are not fully reflected, as many crimes go unreported and convictions are low. It’s important to ask why these things are happening, for the benefit of both women and men.

Not sure about this. Being a bit broader in the people you consider swiping right on surely doesn't equate to dating 10 years older or "beneath your level"

Things even up as men and women get older. The choice women had in their 20s perhaps doesn't exist in the same way in their 40s. But conversely many men in their 20s have this issue as their female equivalents have so much choice.

I don't down date, what's the point? They would bore the arse off me.
I want an equal. If I can't get that I'm not propping up a lump of man-flesh around with me (even if they are amazing in the sack, I'd still get bored)

But I get the point for the poster who said that people OLD not just for the ego boast and casual sex, it's very difficult to put the effort in every single match and give it a fair shot. I'm much more interested in making sure I don't date the freaks and the nutters than I am actually finding someone decent. Sad really but men are going to have to change their approach if they want the benefits of a relationship (of which there are many) with a decent woman if OL is the only place they can meet them.

@Talon01
’Things even up as men and women get older. The choice women had in their 20s perhaps doesn't exist in the same way in their 40s. But conversely many men in their 20s have this issue as their female equivalents have so much choice.

So you think men are disadvantaged for the ten years of their twenties and only increase in value but women are permanently diavantaged for decades after they reach 40 as womens devalue with age in ways men don’t?

I'm just a silly woman who doesn't understand statistics.

I do feel sorry for those two women a week in the UK who are murdered by their male partners. Or is it three a week now? I guess they just didn't understand statistics either. If only someone could have explained it to them.

Yes and the
‘Every year, an average of 66,000 women are violently killed globally,’ most of them killed by men.

Not to mention those violently assaulted but who survive

I think in their 20s women get a lot of attention. Because of this they have a lot of choice. A fair number of men are just starting out in a career etc so let's say an average man is likely to not get much attention. That was my experience.

Jump forward 20 years and average man has his own home, job, has kept in shape even though he is still looks wise distinctly average. He has more interest from women (around his age). This has been my experience.

Women still get a fair amount of attention in their 40s but nothing like in their 20s. Average man they wouldn't have considered in their 20s is now a good bet compared to a lot of other men.

I'm just saying that things seem to even up a bit. You can interpret that as women devaluing but if they are its only from a place that in comparison only the best looking of men would ever reach in the first place so it's all releative.

@Talon01

yes that’s what I thought you meant. Don’t agree at all but you can think that . I know plenty of women getting more attention in later years than their twenties and men very popular in 20s

I think the 20s is interesting for both sexes. Women out dating having fun well unless they're same sex it's men they're having fun with. More women are putting off permanent relationships in favour of careers so by the end of the 20s many of the family orientated men will be settled down. The pool of partners for both sexes changes as you age and the number of single people without other responsibilities drops. Also I think as you get older you get used to your way of life and less adaptable to having someone else to share your life with.

Women still get a fair amount of attention in their 40s but nothing like in their 20s. Average man they wouldn't have considered in their 20s is now a good bet compared to a lot of other men.

Honestly, the amount of attention I got in my 20s was overwhelming and stressful and frankly intrusive a lot of the time, so I'm much happier with the decreased level of attention I get in my 40s.

The men I wouldn't have considered in my 20s have become age-appropriate, which is why I am now prepared to consider them haha

Yes, I don't think men understand how stressful and horrible it is to be hit on all the time by creepy men in your 20s. Those are the ones that disappear by your 40s (all the older men who like younger women, the men who like young women as they are vulnerable and easy to intimidate). So it seems like less choice but is actually less hassle. Also less random sexual assaults eg on the street or in pubs.

My tastes have changed as I aged. I now find men in their 40s-60s much more attractive. I just wasn't interested in my 20s. They looked old and unsexy. Now I really like their look (if they stay fit and a reasonable weight). The main problem is that the half decent ones have been kept by their wives and the useless ones thrown back (it's women who initiate divorce)

Agree, it’s so much nicer being older and having all those creepy dudes twice your age who’d hit on you in your 20s just lose interest
Sure you have ‘less choice ‘ but it means the less choice consists of mainly decent men happy to date their own age and not a pack of sleaze bags trying to get someone their daughters age.

I thought it was a common complaint of women in their 40s and older to suddenly feel invisible though? So presumably a lot of women don't like less attention from the opposite sex?

Maybe the few posters above were very attractive and thus wanting less attention would be beneficial.

Has the OP actually returned to this thread by the way?

@lpc i don’t think it’s gif anything to do with how women look , the invisible thing does happen but only to a certain type of man. I think some women who complain about feeling invisible are not thinking about WHO they are invisible to . The creepers and the ones who value youth in women above all else .
Basically low value men . Once you realise it’s only the ones like that who your invisible to it’s actually a positive thing.

I agree, it's the gross guys that started perving on me when I was in primary school (early developer!) but I can still turn heads of enough guys my age now which is much better.