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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 21/10/2022 17:16

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

OP posts:
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7
winningeasy · 23/01/2023 19:57

Well done @Chevyimpala67 that's brilliant!
Not easy to do but totally necessary to protect yourself x

FreeIn23 · 23/01/2023 22:34

@AttilaTheMeerkat @Fluffygoon @Sicario
Thanks all of you, especially Attila, for your advice and support. I’ve started looking at the website you mentioned. I’d never heard of DARVO before but oh my God, this is totally the person I referred to and who I want out of my life.

I’m still processing the recent attempts at getting me to change my mind. Overall I feel very ignored. It’s all about them and what they want.

I’m lining up some counselling help thankfully starting very soon. I’m going to stay on this thread though as I think there are some very insightful contributors here.

Thank you again for helping me start to see and understand the dynamics. 💐for you all

Chevyimpala67 · 23/01/2023 23:16

Thanks ☺️
I know you guys understand what a big thing it is. Doesn't sound hard, does it?Turning down an invite. But it's the first time in years I've done what I wanted to do.
In fact I'm on a roll - I've turned down an invite to mils bday lunch!
I don't wish any of them ill. I just no longer want to cosplay happy families.

MonkeyfromManchester · 24/01/2023 23:07

@Chevyimpala67 FANTASTIC. it's so difficult not to fall into the trap we've been conditioned into e.g. People pleasing to avoid a row or feeling guilty, appeasing people who don't deserve consideration. I get it! Well done, you!

Had a good day today, despite the stress of doing my tax return.

I was sick of all the Hag’s various medical appointment and care company letters on our hall table. She simply pushes them through our door with the scribbled name of Mr Monkey on the envelope.

The Hag moans on about how terrible her life is, but she has two sons who do everything between them: shopping, money management, medical appointments.

The envelopes with her handwriting on turn my stomach, they pollute my house, so I had a great half an hour shredding them and shoving what's current into an envelope and pushing to the back of the letter rack. #itsthelittlethings

It sounds really trivial, but the mere thought of that woman makes me feel ill. It's like an exorcism.

winningeasy · 25/01/2023 14:50

Has anyone had EMDR therapy here? Thoughts? X

Hardpillow · 25/01/2023 16:28

@winningeasy is this eye movement therapy? If so my friend has it. She pays privately but has had some amazing results. She doesn't go for the reasons that we would but it has helped her with her relationships.

Sicario · 25/01/2023 17:41

@MonkeyfromManchester - I totally understand what you mean about The Hag's handwriting.

After I went NC with my entire FOO, my sister would send stuff in the post (passive aggressive / rubbish "gifts" / random shite trying to get any kind of response) and the sight of her handwriting really tipped me over the edge. I was shocked at the visceral nature of my response.

I took a leaf out of @AttilaTheMeerkat 's book and threw it all straight in the bin.

As you say, it feels like pollution and has no place in our homes.

MonkeyfromManchester · 25/01/2023 17:43

@Sicario i know! I was really surprised by my response and then at the same time not surprised that I felt so polluted. In. The. Bin.

MyFragility · 25/01/2023 20:25

Hi All. Please may I have some advice/or head wobble?

I've not contacted nor seen my DM, DF and Dsis for 8 months now (and my life is much better for it). DM will still text me occasionally with some meaningless texts saying that she is thinking of me, loves me etc. I've not responded to any of them. Before I went NC with them, I did tell my DSis and DM how let down I felt and called them out on their unacceptable behaviours - but they didn't listen or acknowledge - choosing to either deny and then ignore as if nothing has happened and even suggest they are victims (classic narc behaviour).

However, DM texted me today saying that she is constantly thinking of me, misses me and would love to see me. She wants me to visit her as she said that can't come to me as she struggles with her health. She hasn't however acknowledged anything I've said previously nor apologised for her unforgivable behaviour over sensationalizing the unexpected death my DS. On the face of it, there is nothing really inherently 'wrong' with the text. It all sounds inoffensive and reasonable.

On one hand, I am tempted to see her - to give her a chance (like I always used to do). But on the other hand, I know she has never really apologised for anything or admitted she is wrong. I'm scared that I will be in the firing line again or have to listen to a myriad of stupid excuses, where she will be the victim and everything is someone else's fault. I doubt anything will change - so why am I even giving this headspace??? Should I give it a chance, or stick to my NC boundaries and ignore it?

winningeasy · 25/01/2023 20:29

@MyFragility has she taken any accountability for how she upset you / or said sorry? If not, do not respond.
I certainly would not be travelling to see her even if she did. If she was really sorry I might suggest a phone call to clear the air. You can still be low contact. But only if she's actually sorry.

MyFragility · 25/01/2023 20:40

@winningeasy - thanks for your speedy response. Nope - DM, DF or DSis refuse to take any accountability or have said sorry. They minimise or ignore or justify. In the past, I always gave them the benefit of the doubt - a second chance - questioned myself. But after what happened with my DS, I couldn't. That was just too big.

I know from reading various articles etc, a narc won't ever say sorry. But I admit there is a part of me that wishes/dreams/hopes that my DM, DF, DSis would put their arms around me, say sorry, just fkg be there for me, grieve my DS with me, share love and memories of him with me.

But deep down I am not convinced they will. Because they never have been like this. It's crazy that I am chasing this 'dream' that for me, will never be. Yet I still hope...

winningeasy · 25/01/2023 20:54

@MyFragility seriously, they've let you down so badly. You get nothing out of this relationship at all. All very disappointing I am sure. Stick to your guns and ignore x

Tigresses · 25/01/2023 22:47

@MyFragility I am so sorry for the loss of your child - and I can’t imagine how it would be even possible for that to be compounded further by their hideous behaviour.

I would be v suspicious of being asked to visit and enter in to their home.

Are you inclined to state your grievance once more on text and ask for an apology?

MonkeyfromManchester · 25/01/2023 23:43

@MyFragility it’s about you concentrating on you and your space. The sad thing is you won’t get the support or acknowledgment of your pain from your DM. It’s really, really harsh to have to face up to that. Opening up communications and explaining yourself to get the elusive apology won’t give you what you need; however, it will give them an opportunity for game playing and power games. Don’t take the bait, give a wide berth and concentrate on you and the people who matter to you.

huge hugs x

briarhill · 26/01/2023 11:07

Hello, wonderful and brave people,

I discovered the following essay on Reddit on the shadowy side effects of "grey-rocking" narcissist family members and it rang so true for me, I thought I would share. The author describes how grey-rocking was never meant to be a long term solution but a short term method to keep us safe until we can escape an abusive relationship. If we keep this up long term, we can disassociate from our own emotions and even make ourselves physically ill, as I discovered very recently myself!

Here's the essay, written by someone known as "KorianderSalamander" on Reddit:

I'm going to be absolutely honest here, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to be anything anyone wants to hear. But it is the truth, so I apologize in advance for any alarm, offense, or upset it might cause.

Grey rocking is absolutely effective, but the thing I think a lot of us overlook or forget is that as a strategy, it's not actually meant for dealing with someone on as intimate a basis as parents, spouse, close friends, etc; it's meant for managing short-term, socially unavoidable, and largely superficial interactions with narcissists 'in the wild', as it were, or for keeping your head down long enough to get away from whatever dangerously abusive situation you're in: until you can get a/another job, or move out, or the divorce or the restraining order goes through, or...

Well. Until you can escape, in other words.

Because here's the thing: human beings are social animals. Bottom line. We simply are not designed or equipped for chronic shutdown of all emotional response or engagement, and on top of this, the constant vigilance grey rock requires, while easy enough to do with practice for an hour or a day, is beyond exhausting to maintain long-term. It's draining in the extreme, and as you have noticed, can lead to unpleasant side effects. You begin to dissociate from your own emotions, because you have effectively placed yourself in a kind of protective bubble, where abuse can't reach you - but neither can any genuine connection. It feels exhausting, empty, hollow, unhealthy, inauthentic, stifling, and emotionally unsatisfying because it is. That's why it works short-term: because functionally speaking, it is meant to starve a parasite.

Unfortunately, it's also starving you, too.

There is no strategic solution for preserving your health and sanity with a narc long-term. It simply is not realistically possible. It's like diving off a ship at sea and then expecting to be able to tread water forever. No matter how strong a swimmer you are, physics always wins: you either make it to shore or you drown.
With a narc, this means either going NC or accepting a life which revolves, in some sense, around the narcissist, because they will never change and you do not have an infinite supply of energy or empathy. So you will always, inevitably, be accruing damage, even if this is in small increments over a long period of time. Because however much you try to limit the blast radius, you are still being exposed to their toxicity. And continuing to engage with them at all ensures that there will always be a next time, when no matter how prepped you are for it, you're going to get another dose of their fallout.

That's it. That's all. And this one simple, brutal, unyielding truth about dealing with toxic people is one of the most difficult things to accept. It's why so many people struggle for years - decades - entire lifetimes - with the horrible decision forced upon us, in which we are obligated to choose between them and us; between staying put and swallowing poison, or walking away to save ourselves.
It sucks. It's depressing, and infuriating, and painful in the extreme. It causes vast amounts of guilt, uncertainty, fear, doubt, anger... you know the drill. I'm preaching to the choir here. There's a reason it's such a fraught decision no one ever makes lightly or without immense suffering.

But I honestly believe it's also the only decision that's ever going to let us heal from the damage they've caused.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's not fair, it's not right, it's not normal, it's not okay - and it's not your fault. Neither is it your responsibility to manage (no matter what I'm sure the toxic person has been telling you for years.) If you're not in therapy right now, please strongly consider it; it can help you make sense of what you're dealing with and give you more perspective on the situation. At the end of the day, whatever you do, the decision is yours and yours alone, and your reasons for it are yours alone as well - no one knows your situation better than you do, and no one has to live your life but you.

Be well. Please take care of yourself. You are worth it.

Thelnebriati · 26/01/2023 11:20

That's a very good point; there are alternative strategies to use if you have to maintain contact;

Narc tactics are all designed to provoke a negative emotional reaction in you (that’s right, not necessarily from you – it is sufficient for you to internalise the negativity only), thereby confirming for the narcissist that they retain power and control over you.
Emotionally unhook yourself, observe like a curious scientist.
When engaging with them and you begin to notice you are feeling that agitated, anxious, frightened, unsafe inner state, you can be sure that they are applying one of the manipulation tactics.
So now is the time for you to pause, and begin observing. Ask yourself which of the tactics it might be, and watch them go at it.
Stop explaining yourself.
Start using non-defensive statements. This is similar to stopping the endless explanations, in that your mindset must be in that same place of seeking to unhook and disengage with the games.
Be bland, non-defensive and non committal.
narcwise.com/2018/01/20/break-free-from-abuse-by-emotionally-unhooking-starving-the-narcissist-heres-how/

Tigresses · 26/01/2023 11:26

Thanks for that - it chimes with my favourite phrase “keep yourself out of punching distance”.

It’s also important to note that NC has its costs. It’s also exhausting and takes it’s toll. No one wants to be in either situation - instead just a polite and civil relationship without the threat of when the scorpion will sting again.

Is this only with family - would anyone tap-dance to such an exhausting extreme for friends?

It seems that social expectations are that we should tolerate more and work harder for families.

It’s all very hard. NC for me is the less shitty end of the stick but it’s far from liberating and refreshing in my personal experience. It’s lonely and full of wishful thinking and yearning for it to resolve. Heartbreaking.

briarhill · 26/01/2023 12:33

@Thelnebriati, thanks for the link!

@Tigresses, I haven't reached the point of NC yet, just lower and lower contact, but I agree, it's not easy any which way for us. 😔

Sicario · 26/01/2023 13:10

@MyFragility I am so cross on your behalf. Their behaviour was (and remains) inexcusable, especially your sister. In your heart of hearts, you know that you are on a hiding to nothing here. They have nothing to offer you except more heartache and hurt. My toxic sister was always the classic “ambulance chaser” whenever she got a sniff of someone else’s blood. The narcissistic need for drama in any way they can find it. I liken her to an emotional vampire.

As @MonkeyfromManchester says, don’t take the bait.

I cannot begin to imagine what you have been through. Please take care of yourself.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/01/2023 13:19

MyFragility

Do not at all respond to your mother's messages. She is attempting to hoover you back into their dysfunctional family fold and hoovering is a tactic beloved of narcissists.

You have to let go completely of any and all HOPE here they will change and say sorry because they truly won't.

OP posts:
NDerbys31 · 26/01/2023 18:33

Hi all.
Guy here - brand new to the site today, and joined up as I'm, hopefully, coming to the end of a long and painful road with a dysfunctional family. Narc' parents who developed a narc' daughter (golden child) and so much of what I have seen on here has really resonated.
I hope it doesn't sound patronising but have been watching from afar for a good while and your comments on here made me realise, and confirm, that it's 'not just me' going through it.
Thankyou all.
If I can add anything useful to this, then I may in future.
I'm still here, positive minded and very much looking forward, so it is possible to get through it.
Families, eh?

Thelnebriati · 27/01/2023 15:34

Hi @NDerbys31
If you have a sister who is the golden child (and no other siblings) then its likely that you are the scapegoat. Scapegoats often end up going no contact with their family, because the family dynamic is so toxic.
This is going to sound harsh but if you are the scapegoat, you should let go of any expectations of inheritance. Instead focus on making a life for yourself and dealing with any misplaced residual guilt.
Children don't get to choose the families they are born into, and the same goes for our own children. Keep looking forwards.

NDerbys31 · 27/01/2023 15:44

Hi - thanks for that.
I moved on and went NC many years ago but the death of our parents inevitably brought some contact. Nothing changed in the many years - toxicity, permanent victimhood and anger all in place still.
It's not being continued in my line. In a good place, proud of my kid and marriage full of genuine love and respect.
Thanks so much for your reply!

briarhill · 28/01/2023 12:09

For those of you who made the decision to go NC, what was the "last straw" that prompted your decision? As we all know, it's not as easy one to make.

Starting therapy has made me realise that I've been living in a trauma response ever since (regrettably) allowing them to visit me last year. (It wasn't my idea; it was theirs and I felt too much FOG to say no.)

I've been very LC ever since, but even a message will trigger a trauma response and the final straw for me has been that all this stress and distress has culminated in a physical illness and I realize I can't go on like this. My body won't let me.

Wheresthecheese · 28/01/2023 17:01

For me it was just feeling awful every time I spoke to my mother or saw her. Every phone call or interaction upset me for days. After one too many unpleasant phone calls I just didn’t call and she didn’t call me. That went on for three years.

I am not in contact with her now after she launched into a nasty attack three months ago. I have just had enough. Sometimes it’s something small or just feeling you can’t take anymore. It’s like any relationship. It isn’t always a big showdown that makes you feel ‘enough’.

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