DSS (10) went to thump DS (4 and disabled)

[TemporaryChange1]

My DS can be incredibly challenging and you would never hear me pretend otherwise but what happened this evening has really upset me. DS is severely autistic, has LD's and suspected ADHD. His level of understanding is more comparable to a very young toddler.

DSC are round today. I left all of them with OH (father to all of them) whilst I nipped to the shop. DS began having a meltdown when I got home as he struggles with transitions and gets upset when people come in and out as he automatically wants to go outside himself.

As I come in DS begins crying and throwing himself on the floor. He threw one of his car toys which landed near DSD but not at her. It landed about a metre away from where she was sitting. DSS (10) jumped up, grabbed DS by the jumper and raised his fist ready to thump him in the face.

OH shouted for him to stop right there and don't you dare punch him, so he didn't, but he certainly intended to.

When DSS (10) went back to sit down DS (4) then threw another toy which landed near him this time. OH made DS apologise for throwing the toy. No apology forthcoming from DSS for going to thump DS.

Admittedly, DS is my weakness. I'm incredibly protective of him as he's just so vulnerable so I want to know whether you think I'm being unreasonable so be absolutely furious about this.

I got DS shoes on and took him out the house to the greenery down the road where we're now sitting.

The child's autistic meltdown had nothing to do with SS. There was no reason at all for the SS to get involved. Do you not see that? The 4-year-old wasn't attacking him. The 4-year-old wasn't attacking his sister. It was not self-defence, or defence, or a fight between siblings. He took it upon himself to approach the child with the intention of thumping him in the head or face. He did it because he was angry, and when angry his instinct is violence. Normal 10-year-olds do not go around punching crying infants.

^ THIS.

And it wasn’t something like a shove, either, which all my 3 are guilty of when their sibling is annoying the living shit out of them. I would explode and be mortified if any of them did what the DSS did here.

Yes, as I've said numerous times, I don't agree with his behaviour and I don't think it was acceptable. No, he shouldn't have stepped in or lashed out.

But I do think people are being incredibly dismissive about how difficult it can be to live with a severely disabled sibling who has meltdowns and throws things around. That's unpleasant and violent behaviour whether it's directly aimed at you or not.

That's NOT to say it's the fault of the disabled 4yo but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the impact this kind of behaviour has on other children in the household, especially when they're (to an extent) expected to accept it because their sibling is disabled and so it's not their fault.

Adults post on here all the time say they struggle to be around that kind of behaviour and they get nothing but support and sympathy. This is a 10yo boy who doesn't have that kind of maturity or support, and he gets a bunch of grown adults slinging insults at him instead.

So yes, the 10yo was wrong. No, he shouldn't have done what he did. But I do think what he needs here is some understanding and support as he's clearly struggling to live with a disabled sibling. Demonising him and calling him aggressive won't help anyone and it certainly won't help improve their relationship going forward, which is presumably what everyone wants long-term.

THIS!! He went to attack a 4yo disabled child. Even if ops ds wasn't autistic, that is still unacceptable and frightening. He seems to have some deep issues regarding the child and he reacted in this way. I can't believe that people are excusing this as normal. What would have happened if the dh didnt stop him in time ? What happens next time. The child has severe LD according to op, this child is very vulnerable. What happened was extremely wrong and I think they should never be allowed together alone ever again.

Oh I’m well aware of the affect it has and have spent over a decade navigating that, thanks.

And what he did IS aggressive, whether you like that word or not. My other two DC have never shown aggression towards their sibling when she’s having a meltdown.

Honestly it sounds like the apple hasnt fallen far from the tree judging by the dads reaction later. you said ds has been hurt before accidentally?

Yes he has several times. DS has had multiple bangs to the head after being wrestled and bodyslammed charged at. DSS can be quite rough when they're playing. I never saw any malice in it though and put it down to just boys just being boisterous and DSS not realising his strength.

I think the fact your DSS's instinctive reaction was one of violence is concerning, and then you describe your partner as "going ballistic" and "exploding" at you, so hardly unsurprising your partner doesn't see DSS's behaviour as unacceptable when he is happy to behave like that towards you.

Indeed. I said the same to OH when he was going off on one. It's clear where he gets it from isn't it?

Your DH words and behaviour during the argument were incredibly aggressive. Have his DC seen him lashing out like that? Might explain where DSS gets it from. You must be stressed, upset and exhausted. I’d struggle to stay with someone so emotionally incontinent. Are you happy and committed to staying with him? If you imagine yourselves separated does it look harder or easier? He’d be around less to share the load with DS but you could focus on only DS and not have to worry about the DSC.

The DC have witnessed that behaviour from him yes. OH told me himself that DSS gets scared of shouting because he used to hear OH and his mum shouting at one another when he was really small. If you asked me whether I'm happy on any normal day I'd likely say I was but when he behaves like this I start to look back at other things and question it all. I do worry that my life would be harder if I had to do it all alone as DS is incredibly hard work, barely sleeps etc.

Yes he has several times. DS has had multiple bangs to the head after being wrestled and bodyslammed charged at. DSS can be quite rough when they're playing. I never saw any malice in it though and put it down to just boys just being boisterous and DSS not realising his strength.

OP there is a six year age gap so no, that sort of play isn’t appropriate, regardless of gender or SEN.

I said that to OH when it happened and he reacted similarly to how he did last night. It feels as though he has been conditioning me to not speak up when I find DSC behaviour inappropriate. His foul mood when he got home last night was clearly designed to make himself look unapproachable and therfore I wouldn't want to talk to him. Childishness really.

In his eyes DSS can do no wrong and if he does do something wrong he doesn't mean it, he's just clumsy etc.

Why did your partner's relationship with the mother of his older children break down?

How long did you know him before having a child/ren with him?

I agree your DSS sounds violent.

@TemporaryChange1 Your subsequent posts suggest that you and OH would be best to separate. He is never going to see his child as you do. Your child is at risk of being hurt in his own home and your DH is minimising it/ignoring your concerns. You have said how vulnerable your child is in this dynamic. You cannot continue to have them in your home all together, it is not safe or healthy. It is not fair on DSS either, he obvious struggles with his DB and controlling his own emotions, if he hurt DB very badly he would likely be very upset. If it were more serious still he is at the age of Criminal Responsibility, the adults in these children's lives need to help keep them both safe.

I mean don’t you think it’s sad that apparently both parents were in the room watching a child throw toys around and nobody bothered to intervene since it’s his ‘maladaptive coping mechanism?’ But apparently were quick to intervene when the other child in the room became violent?

You need to support all the children in the house. Nobody in the house can have coping mechanisms that involve throwing things or hurting others. Will you be happy for other children to throw toys at your four year old? Presumably not. You’re being very short sighted.

Clearly you have zero experience with Autism if you think you can stop a child’s meltdown response.

It sounds like some inner resentments simmered to the surface in that moment and the thrown toy was the final straw. The fact he didn’t punch your DS straight away indicates to me he wanted to ‘frighten’ him more than actually harm him. Almost a, ‘will his behaviour stop if somebody just gives him a good scare?’. Obviously not a great pattern of thought but at 10 I doubt he understands his brother’s disability. I would leave it there, and monitor future interactions.

I agree

I have a child with autism. You may not be able to stop the response but obviously you need to implement measures to ensure no other children are hurt. What you don’t do is sit watching the child throw toys around and then step in angrily when another child reacts poorly.

There were some toys we had to accept were adult supervision only when my son was this small - sometimes we had to split up so that I would watch only my son with autism and DH would take the other three to places he couldn’t cope with. Ridiculous to act like him throwing hot wheels around is some reasonably and acceptable coping mechanism that should be ignored until his sibling lashes out.

boys just being boisterous
This - boys or girls should never be excused for anything ‘too rough’ or ‘fighting type’ behaviour - this is at the heart of it. DSS is obviously allowed to do this and honestly at age 10 he has to stop. I’d be very hard on this, especially as he was prepared to raise a fist - next time he might use it - and on a young boy half his size.

That is early warning signs of a boy who hasn’t been shown acceptable boundaries for aggression. Teach him in your house this NEVER happens. Teach him in front of all the children and your OH - so that everyone understands.

Be very, very clear to DSS and to all the children that
No aggressive play ever.
No rough play ever.
And for the hitting incident DSS has to apologise to DS and probably some kind of (minor) punishment that should have happened at the time to be honest. Its’ the social punishment that is more effective.

And if I were you I wouldn’t leave any of the kids with OH when DSS is around for a long while and don’t leave them unsupervised.

Often this also happens because the kids are unsupervised, DSS is getting fed up and no adults are intervening as soon as he gets a bit rough or angry with a firm ‘no’.

I have a disabled child and honestly it’s siblings sometimes, often step kids that we don’t supervise as closely - but I never ever let him play unsupervised with his Cousins or siblings. Disabled kids are just way too vulnerable - they can ‘trigger’ others and cannot defend themselves as easily.

You may not be able to stop the response but obviously you need to implement measures to ensure no other children are hurt. What you don’t do is sit watching the child throw toys around and then step in angrily when another child reacts poorly.

What are you even talking about?

Did you not read the part of my posts where I explained I had just come into the door with two hands full of shopping bags and OH was taking food out of the oven? Or does that not fit into your narrative that I'm the one responsible for DSS going to attack my son?

When he throws something he loses it for X amount of time until he's calm enough that I'm satisfied he isn't going to throw things around.

The vast, vast majority of the time I'm able to swoop in and remove whatever he has at his disposal before he launches it, hence his Ipad not being smashed to bits like his first one was way back when I was finding my feet with his difficulties as a toddler.

Nobody is responsible for DSS behaviour but DSS, and the law says as such. You can try to pin it on me all you like. He was needlessly aggressive. End of.

@TemporaryChange1

You said you were both in the room. I didn’t pull that out of nowhere. So intervention should have happened immediately when one child started throwing toys around where they could injure other children. Even if that meant leaving the shopping down.

You seem determined to see the 10 year old as some sort of aggressive monster when in fact the problem here is lack of parental planning and intervention. You feel protective of your child (understandably) and think the other children should have the maturity to make allowances when he throws things that might hit them. But unfortunately children don’t react that way. Their parents need to be supervising to prevent any toys being thrown or any sibling aggression.

I have a very very similar age gap and my eldest child has never done something like this, he rarely, rarely hits the younger child back & will be more inclined to shout at him instead (shouting at him to stop- fine imo) Your Dss needs to work on his impulse control and his temper. I wouldn’t accept this behaviour as normal sibling type fighting. At 10 he should have better coping tools.

You are making your son out to be the victim and alienating the other children.

SEN children need firm boundaries and discipline just like neurotypical children. There is no excuses.

Autistic or not, throwing toys in other siblings direction regardless of whether it hurts the other child or not, should not be tolerated. It is dangerous and unfair on the other children.

Your child needs removing from these situations immediately and explsined to each time that it is wrong, the reasons why it's wrong and that it wont be tolerated.

It sounds like your step children need 'protecting' and nurturing more than your ds.

You and your partner should bd anticipating ds showing signs of a 'meltdown' and be ready to intervene before this type of behaviour starts.

Fair enough, lives are busy and hectic. We're not going to be on guard 24/7 but noticing triggers and working to stop them would help massively. It Will help the other children. Bless them.

Your 10 year old dss acted how the majority of children I know his age would behave. He was protecting his sister and acted impulsively with his feelings. Totally normal. Reading between the lines it sounds like sc were feeling pretty fed up knowing that your son would yet again be the 'victim'.

10 year olds aren't mature, they're not big kids or young adults, they're small and primary aged and still very much a child.

I notice you've referred to your son as tiny several times. Unless he has growth issues, I wouldn't class a 4 year old as tiny. Yes he may be delayed however he may still be as big and strong as any other child his age.

Please consider how tough it must be for your step children having their lives turned upside down. Seeing Dad with a new partner and having another child that lives with him 24/7. It's a huge change and I personally feel that they should have extra time and attention spent on them. I've read that they have alone time but it sounds like they'd benefit from more. I apologise if I'm wrong but they sound a but of an inconvenience to you. My heart goes out to them and it seems your ds is hard work which mustn't be easy for the other children.

A monster? No.

Violent towards my disabled infant, yes.

A four year old is not an infant.

Autistic or not, throwing toys in other siblings direction regardless of whether it hurts the other child or not, should not be tolerated. It is dangerous and unfair on the other children

Frustrated with DS or not, aggression towards a much younger child should not be tolerated. It is dangerous and unfair.

It sounds like your step children need 'protecting' and nurturing more than your ds

Dear lord. Righto then 😐

Your disabled ‘infant’ (four year old) who was throwing toy cars around a child who you’ve already said is nervous of confrontation. He was reactive, which wasn’t ideal. Both he and your child need to be supported better by you and your DH so that neither child is being harmed. Not DSS by your son throwing cars (regardless of you thinking he’s a tiny baby infant a hot wheels car still hurts) and not your child if his brother hits him. You already know your son has meltdowns and throws things, supervise him so these situations don’t escalate.

Hang on. You mentioned in your original post that your son had thrown something twice. Why didn't you stop and remove him immediately the first time instead of watching him throw a second object.

Also, if he is throwing objects around in others direction without warning, it sounds like he needs an adult supervising in the room, not left on his own to throw things at others unfortunately this is dangerous and unacceptable amd sny sibling is going to become very fed up and react eventually.