DSS (10) went to thump DS (4 and disabled)

[TemporaryChange1]

My DS can be incredibly challenging and you would never hear me pretend otherwise but what happened this evening has really upset me. DS is severely autistic, has LD's and suspected ADHD. His level of understanding is more comparable to a very young toddler.

DSC are round today. I left all of them with OH (father to all of them) whilst I nipped to the shop. DS began having a meltdown when I got home as he struggles with transitions and gets upset when people come in and out as he automatically wants to go outside himself.

As I come in DS begins crying and throwing himself on the floor. He threw one of his car toys which landed near DSD but not at her. It landed about a metre away from where she was sitting. DSS (10) jumped up, grabbed DS by the jumper and raised his fist ready to thump him in the face.

OH shouted for him to stop right there and don't you dare punch him, so he didn't, but he certainly intended to.

When DSS (10) went back to sit down DS (4) then threw another toy which landed near him this time. OH made DS apologise for throwing the toy. No apology forthcoming from DSS for going to thump DS.

Admittedly, DS is my weakness. I'm incredibly protective of him as he's just so vulnerable so I want to know whether you think I'm being unreasonable so be absolutely furious about this.

I got DS shoes on and took him out the house to the greenery down the road where we're now sitting.

I'm not sure what you want people to say about the 4yo.

He's fine. He wasn't hurt and nothing actually happened to him. His step-brother lost his patience and lashed out, dad stepped in and stopped the younger one from getting hurt. That's a pretty commonplace scenario in most households with multiple siblings.

Nobody got hurt, or punched. Nobody assaulted anyone. The 10yo lost his temper - that's all. There's no need to over-analyse it any further - it won't help anyone.

People have said he reacted proportionately, that what he did is normal between siblings, that it must be incredible difficult for him being in that position and its understandable that he lashed out.

But all of this is true.

Going to punch his brother in the face is unacceptable. Is this an unusual event or does he often lose his temper?
Just wondering given family history whether potentially he has additional needs himself and if he has difficulty regulating his emotions?
However to a degree it is natural siblings do fight and come to blows.
And DSC is still a child and maybe struggling to cope with his brothers SEN.
Parents intervened and alls well in the end.
It must be difficult for your DSC, do they get time with their dad by themselves? Do they live permanently with you or or they mainly at their mums?
They might benefit from some time alone with their dad as they could resent how much attention their brother gets particularly if they only see their dad one or two days a week.
It is a difficult situation. As you say your sons behaviour is difficult. I hope you have enough support for yourself.

Is this the was DSS normally behaves? If not you really need to look at what has got him to this pretty desperate point IMO. I would suspect that DSS is behaving like this because it feels to him like no one is parenting the 4 year old who can behave how he likes without any consequences and so he is taking it into his own hands in extreme ways. He may feel like no one is looking out for or bothered about keeping him and his sister safe.

You know that the 4 year old is parented and that working on his behaviour requires a different approach - but are there some visible consequences that DSS could see that would make sense to him? Like now taking away the 4 year olds metal cars while the kids are there so they can't be thrown at them. Knowing that you've taken that step (even if ds throws something else next time) at least looks like you're thinking about their welfare too.

You need to think not only about how you modify ds's behaviour (I wouldn't use ABA personally) but also how you show the other kids that you are considering them and how they feel in the situation too. It sounds like you are far too protective of ds to the detriment of the other children.

I think also that at least one of you needs to be carefully watching ds when the dsc's are around so you can spot when he is getting overwhelmed and hopefully prevent these things before they happen. At the moment you can't allow yourselves to both be tied up with other things however minor - for the sake of all the kids and your relationship.

I have HF autism. When I was younger, I had dreadful meltdowns, and I would sometimes lash out at my siblings (who are all older than me) sometimes they would respond in shock or frustration, which they, also young could not help. Both children behaved in unacceptable ways, but both are children. Try not to vilify DSS OP. He may be fed up, confused or tired. Just as DS 4 will be.

I think the reason why some posters are focusing on DSS and not mentioning DS is that you already know how you feel about DS and his difficulties - you don't need anyone to "stand up for him" and help you understand. Not because they think the way DSS behaved was okay. Which is possibly similar to how your partner is feeling too?

As an Autistic adult, with an Autistic child, ABA is abhorrent and abusive.

Why does the 10YO feel the need to protect his older sister? Crock of shit, an excuse because he wanted to punch his much younger, severely disabled brother.

I have multiple, younger and much younger siblings, including a set of twins who would absolutely terrorise us older ones when tag teaming us, yet we never resorted to violence.

I'm not sure what you want people to say about the 4yo. He's fine. He wasn't hurt and nothing actually happened to him.

How do you know how DS was after the altercation? DSS really frightened him and as for him not being hurt, neither was DSD when the car landed about 1 metre away from her so the toy being thrown certainly didn't warrant the reaction at all.

But all of this is true (re DSS reaction being proportionate)

Is it hell proportionate. DS has full blown autistic meltdowns which sometimes include self injuring behaviours like banging his head on the floor or biting his own hand. Even he doesn't run at siblings and attack them, and it would be much more understandable coming from a reception age child with severe autism than it is a 10yo with no additional needs.

Is this an unusual event or does he often lose his temper?

It's the first time, atleast as far as I've seen, that he has gone to hit DS in that way. He can be quite abrupt with him but I never hold that against him as I know DS can be quite challenging to be around when he wants to play and DSS doesn't.

Is there something going on to make him react like this?

I've thought about this throughout the day and the single biggest change going on in his life is that his DM has moved a new partner in a few months ago and they're expecting a baby. It's possible he has some complicated feelings about that (he hasn't mentioned anything I'm just thinking of possible triggers for the violence)

As an Autistic adult, with an Autistic child, ABA is abhorrent and abusive

Yes that's what I keep hearing and why I haven't pursued it sooner. I think it's important we listen to voices like yours as that could well be my DS one day. It was an option suggested to me that I considered as dispite my best efforts I couldn't seem to get on top of the meltdowns whenever somebody comes in and out. It can be really grating when it happens most days. I won't pursue ABA.

Why does the 10YO feel the need to protect his older sister? Crock of shit, an excuse because he wanted to punch his much younger, severely disabled brother.

I did wonder that myself after a PP suggested that was the case. DSD certainly doesn't need DSS to protect her.

How do you know how DS was after the altercation?

Because you'd have said if he was injured.

DSS really frightened him and as for him not being hurt, neither was DSD when the car landed about 1 metre away from her so the toy being thrown certainly didn't warrant the reaction at all.

I don't know what you want people to say. Everyone has said his reaction is OTT but he's 10 and all you seem to want to do is demonise him.

You're determined not to take on board people telling you that this has been the action of a child and that it isn't unusual.

If you can't get past this and see your DSS as a child who reacted poorly but within the bounds of normal, you're going to have more problems going forward

You're determined to excuse your DS behaviour, which is understandable - you can say he didn't throw the car at his sister he didn't mean it, because you're an adult and more importantly his mother.

Your dss doesn't have that perspective. It is likely to be very difficult for him emotionally and he isn't the parent in this situation. He's likely to be very angry and upset with what is going on in your home.

The answer is not to demonise him. Not if you want him to have any kind of relationship with you and with his brother going forward.

@rageapplied it is really not normal behaviour to break your brother's nose intentionally. It is really not normal behaviour to rip hair out of your little sister's head. This is not normal behaviour within families. It's horrible that you think it is.

I didn't say it was normal. I said it was not unusual. That's not the same thing

Everyone has said his reaction is OTT

No, there are people saying it is absolutely normal behaviour and it is autistic 4-year-old who is at fault.

It is very unusual.

I do, however, completely accept that we were poorly parented.

And I am not at all saying that the autistic 4 year old is at fault. I never ever said that at all.

Quite. It's sad that so many people seem to think that violence is perfectly normal and no big deal between children even when there is such a power imbalance like disability. I would be mortified if any child of mine thought it acceptable to do those things, disabled or not.

Me and my brother argued like cat and dog sometimes, I also had a very close cousin who I spent lots of time with so more like a sister than cousin and we too had fallings out. We didn't abuse one another.

This.

Posters can see me defending (and apparently making excuses for) DS but are conveniently missing the posts from people condoning DSS behaviour.

I should come back in a few months when this thread has been forgotten and rewrite it with a few details changed, omit to include the word 'step' and see how different the response will be.

So hold on. Let's get this right. I was in a headlock having the hair pulled out of my head and I wasn't supposed to have intentionally hit him to hurt me? I was 7 or 8 at the time. He was 13 or 14. And somehow that means I'm blaming the op's 4 year old for what happened even though I never said that. Ok. Got it.

I suppose it was my fault for being weird and annoying.

Funny how that works be me but not for anyone else.

Honestly it sounds like the apple hasnt fallen far from the tree judging by the dads reaction later

you said ds has been hurt before accidentally?

OTT behaviour can be within the realms of normal behaviour, though.

I don't see where anyone has placed the blame squarely on the 4yo, either. People are just saying that a 10yo can't necessarily be expected to regulate their emotions in the same way an older child or an adult can.

Nobody here has said the 10yo has behaved correctly, just that it's not as straightforward as "he should know hitting is wrong and therefore he's aggressive".

I think the fact your DSS's instinctive reaction was one of violence is concerning, and then you describe your partner as "going ballistic" and "exploding" at you, so hardly unsurprising your partner doesn't see DSS's behaviour as unacceptable when he is happy to behave like that towards you.

Your DH words and behaviour during the argument were incredibly aggressive. Have his DC seen him lashing out like that? Might explain where DSS gets it from. You must be stressed, upset and exhausted. I’d struggle to stay with someone so emotionally incontinent. Are you happy and committed to staying with him? If you imagine yourselves separated does it look harder or easier? He’d be around less to share the load with DS but you could focus on only DS and not have to worry about the DSC.