DSS (10) went to thump DS (4 and disabled)

[TemporaryChange1]

My DS can be incredibly challenging and you would never hear me pretend otherwise but what happened this evening has really upset me. DS is severely autistic, has LD's and suspected ADHD. His level of understanding is more comparable to a very young toddler.

DSC are round today. I left all of them with OH (father to all of them) whilst I nipped to the shop. DS began having a meltdown when I got home as he struggles with transitions and gets upset when people come in and out as he automatically wants to go outside himself.

As I come in DS begins crying and throwing himself on the floor. He threw one of his car toys which landed near DSD but not at her. It landed about a metre away from where she was sitting. DSS (10) jumped up, grabbed DS by the jumper and raised his fist ready to thump him in the face.

OH shouted for him to stop right there and don't you dare punch him, so he didn't, but he certainly intended to.

When DSS (10) went back to sit down DS (4) then threw another toy which landed near him this time. OH made DS apologise for throwing the toy. No apology forthcoming from DSS for going to thump DS.

Admittedly, DS is my weakness. I'm incredibly protective of him as he's just so vulnerable so I want to know whether you think I'm being unreasonable so be absolutely furious about this.

I got DS shoes on and took him out the house to the greenery down the road where we're now sitting.

I don't know what is wrong with people here. Even if your 4-year-old had aimed the car at his sister, it does not justify a boy more than twice his age thumping him in the face or head. SS is old enough to know that violence is not right. Who is teaching him that it's ok to punch people? Is he like this in school too?

It is not ok (no matter what the imagined provocation) for. 10 year old to thump anyone. Let alone his disabled little brother.

Nobody has said it's okay. They've said that 10yo children don't have the ability to to regulate their emotions in the same way as adults do, and so they often act instinctively.

However, as soon as his dad told him to stop, he stopped, so he's not some nasty little thug who ignores his parents and hits toddlers. He's a 10yo who lost his patience and reacted (badly) in the heat of the moment. It's not the crime that OP is making it out to be. His dad was there and stepped in and nothing bad happened.

There's no need to blow it all out of proportion based on something that never actually ended up happening.

I'm sorry about that argument with your dh. That all needs addressing in the cold light of day.

Re dss. Inappropriate response from him, but he's a child with a child's response. A calm discussion about ways he can handle it in future. Shout for you or dad, leave the room, etc.

But draw a line under it. Maybe dss is upset about it too today.

He over reacts 'a bit'. A bit would be pushing him away if he was in his face, going over to a disabled child who is like a toddler picking him up by his collar & going to thump him in the face ys not 'a bit'. FFS

@TemporaryChange1

I wouldn't stand for that level of aggression, no way. That's over the top aggressive if DS had been his equal, let alone with wee DS how he is. That level of aggression is unacceptable even if DS had hurt either of the SDC on purpose. (He didn't hurt either of them anyway).

I got a bit confused, but what was DSS's response to being told not to behave that way? He's 10, I would not accept anything less than a heartfelt apology to ME, that he was totally in the wrong to behave so aggressively towards DS, who was only having a bit of a tantrum & throwing his toys about, none of which hit either DSD or DSS, nor were they intended to. I wouldn't have him back to stay (in Ds safe space) until he UNDERSTOOD why his behaviour was so far from acceptable.

picking up someone by their collar and going to hit them in the face is extraordinarily aggressive.

@TemporaryChange1 oh & have it out with OH too, his attitude since coming home is unacceptable too.

It's bullshit to say emotional 10-year-olds can't control their actions. Children should know long before that age that violence is wrong. If SS doesn't then he's either not NT or he has not been taught it is wrong. If it was normal, then schools would be full of children beating the shit out of each other every day.

Hi OP. I have a DD with a chromosomal condition and complex SEND who sounds similar in her profile of needs to your DS - at least when she was his age. She's now 11 and we have a whole new range of ways that her needs emerge.

So I completely understand your feelings, and the millions of tiny ways that you have to explain, defend and advocate for your child on a daily basis, in every interaction with every family member, shop assistant, person at the park etc. I really do get it and I remember how exhausting it was when DD was small. I'd love to tell you it gets easier but I've just found that I've got stronger and more resilient as for us DDs needs have become more apparent as she's got older.

All that said, and completely understanding that your DS can't control his throwing impulse, that he's not intending to harm etc I would take this incident as a red flag that something needs to be in place to prevent this happening again. Throwing a car with the force of a meltdown, and without any intention to harm, could still injure someone. If DSD had been laying down on the floor to play cars with DS it could have hit her in the eye for eg and done a lot of damage, or in the mouth and loosened a tooth. So it needs addressing.

You have mentioned strategies for when meltdowns occur but what have you got in place to pre-empt them? You know they are triggered by transition so I would be looking to work around that. Do you use visuals with him? For DD now at 11 we still use visuals a lot. We have some that map out our morning or day and use now and next to support her around tricky transitions. So for eg, OH could have known what time you were due back and used the now and next board to show "now cars" and then next "mum comes back". For his level I'd be tempted to make lots of the visuals actual photos rather than symbols as he might key into them a bit more.

Does he see SALT? They can often signpost free workshops/talks about the use of visuals. Or failing that see if you can access a course for parenting autistic children. They tend to focus on pre-emoting the behaviours rather then fire fighting, I did a 6 week one years ago that Cambridgeshire country council ran and it was a game changer for us.

10 years old can and do struggle with their emotions and have rage - schools do definitely see an increase in fighting (and deal with it) - football etc is often banned or monitored at school and things put into play. Schools that dont handle it properly can see fighting

@TemporaryChange1 your OH response changes things - I wonder if the atmosphere your DSD and DSS were dealing with and the fact that is entirely possible he has been saying things to them about how he cant do this or that with them because of your DS isnt a factor. That kind of (unacceptable) response doesnt come out of the blue.

ANd if your OH response is to throw things and be aggressive that is something your DSS is modelling.

I think it is your relationship that needs to be properly looked at

DS is disabled, it is what it is.

DSS is age TEN. That’s old enough to be arrested by the police. Yes he’s still a child but he’s far, far, too old to hit someone from a temporary loss of control. Let alone in the face. Let along a younger child. Let alone a disabled younger child!

The thing about DS throwing a car at DSS is a red herring: there’s no excuse for what DSS tried to do. I’m not sure I’d ban DSS from the house but I would make sure he’s never alone with DS and I’d give DSS a major punishment eg write a two page A4 essay on the age of criminal responsibility including mention of people who have died from being hit in the face.

The priority here is to stop DSS growing up into a man who thinks it’s acceptable to punch people in the face because they ‘were asking for it’ the world already has a lot of men like that: it does not need more.

Knowing right from wrong isn't the same thing as having the self-control to restrain themselves 24/7, though.

He also listened to his dad straight away and didn't follow through, so he's clearly not the violent thug people are trying to make him out to be.

Nobody here has said his behaviour is appropriate or acceptable but I don't know any 10yo who never does anything wrong. Is this behaviour extreme? Yes, but what he's dealing with at home is also fairly extreme.

10 year olds can absolutely control themselves enough not to hit a 4year old.

the size difference itself would stop most kids from going in to pick up and thump a significantly smaller child who wasn’t near them.

I’d expect a 10 year old to hit back if the other child (regardless of size and age) went to physically hit the 10 year old at a close range but not to go and grab a small child laying on the ground tantrumming.

sounds like the 10 year old is waiting for any excuse to vent his anger and aggression on a smaller child who can’t really hurt him.

sounds like his father isn’t the best role model either.

OP, nobody here is saying what DSS did is okay. They are saying it isn’t totally out of the ordinary given his age and the situation. And pointing out that DH intervened immediately and appropriately to ensure DS didn’t get hurt and that DSS understood how wrong his actions were. That is, frankly, good parenting and a good resolution to the situation.

Of course you are protective of DS and it is understandable for you to be very upset. I’m sure you can understand that you DH is equally protective of his other DS and likely to be upset on both counts? Nobody likes to hear criticism of their children, and it can be doubly difficult when the criticism is completely justified and from someone they really care about. Few parents will take it well if you tell them that their child was behaving aggressively, particularly in the heat of the moment. Discussing steps to prevent it happening again is a good idea, but it is usually best to wait until everyone has calmed down.

However, DH exploding at you is unacceptable. I’d take some time to consider if there is a deeper problem of DH being an aggressive person himself. If he didn’t want to talk to you about it right then he could easily have said “I’d prefer to talk about it in the morning when I’ve calmed down and had some sleep.” He chose to behave aggressively instead, and that isn’t okay at all.

I think people are being hard on you here. Your ds is barely school age. He had a meltdown and threw something. He wasn't being aggressive and he didn't hurt anyone. Your dss on the other hand made an active decision to behave aggressively to someone much smaller than him. My ds is 10 and I would be appalled if he behaved like that (and he has asd so struggles sometimes to manage his emotions).

What a ridiculous response!! All you would succeed in doing this would be to further alienate the DSS further. What's needed is to find out what he's so angry about. Doing what you suggest will just push him away further and ensure he and DS never have a relationship.

Also whilst I understand the posters highlighting that a ten year old is well able to tell right from wrong and should know better etc I think the SEND of DS is a huge factor here.

Thinking about how exhausting I found getting to grips with my DDs SEND, how much research I had to do, how many moments when she had pushed buttons all day every day and night for weeks at a time and I would get to absolutely breaking point and need to walk away and use all my self control to calm down - thinking about how desperately challenging and relentless it was - I can fully understand a ten year old, without any of those adult skills, without the research and the strategies, losing his temper and acting in a way that was out of character, impulsive and really ill judged.

In DDs class the teachers regularly do exercises looking at tolerance, inclusion, understanding etc because even though they've all been together right through primary, understand her diagnoses etc kids still lose their temper sometimes when they have no choice but to be repeatedly confronted with challenging behaviour. With siblings, where it's a non classroom setting they need ongoing and consistent support to understand SEND, how it presents and why, how to respond to it etc.
I spend just as much time dealing with DDs behaviour as I do explaining it to DS who is 2 years younger and also autistic but only borderline. We regularly chat about how hard he found x or y, how this meltdown or that behaviour makes him feel. You cannot underestimate the enormous impact that DS's needs will be having on his siblings.

I would take this incident as a flag that everyone is struggling right now. And work on making sure all the DC are supported to work through their feelings, their frustration, etc.

If we put this into the school context: DSS is a yr6 or older yr5 child. DS is a reception kid. There is no way, even if you take the disabilities out of it that a Y6 child grabbing and threatening a YR child would be seen as acceptable. DSS needs to watch his aggression as he will get flattened in secondary if he tries that on.

As I was walking off he was making comments about me not giving him sex and therefore we're not a 'proper' couple anyway, how he's so alone in the world etc.

This however makes me think there is alot more to this and infact DH is resentful of DS and is taking this out on you and DS. That would be a big problem for me. I'd be working on your capability to be independent from such a man tbh.

My youngest sounds similar to your DS - autistic, ID etc. I have to say, it's difficult for children to deal with the 'unfairness' in how behavior is dealt with in those with SEN. I have an older NT boy and we've had hundreds of conversations about it over the years. DS1 sees himself getting punished for behavior that DS2 'gets away with'. It needs calm conversations and lots of them. Your family situation is additionally complicated as it's a blended family. With the best will in the world, his feelings to his youngest brother will be complicated.

From your description all adults behaved properly. I'd cut your DSS a break, and just discuss matters calmly and without blame. Certainly no good would come of big punishments and putting his back against the wall. It sounds like events conspired so no adult could get their hands on things in time. It was unfortunate but you have a clear view now of what needs to be done to support DSS DSD and DS. All the best x

The fact he listened to his dad proves he did know what he was doing and was in control of his actions.

I have a nine year old and a three year old. Both boys. I would be absolutely horrified if my 9 year old went to punch his little brother in the face. He has pushed him once in temper and snatched toys off him that have been thrown at him but never has he gone to punch him or anyone else.

I would be concerned by this and I would suspect that there are underlying issues between the two boys that need looking at. I certainly don't think it is usual sibling fighting.

To me, that shows that he did react in the heat of the moment and stopped when his dad intervened as he knew it was wrong. If he didn't care or know it was wrong, he would have ignored his dad and carried on.

Your mistake @TemporaryChange1 was declaring that the older child was a step sibling in your post. On MN that makes you the wicked witch and the DSS a poor downtrodden child who you routinely maltreat. If they were full siblings 99% of the replies would be telling you that a 10 year old being that aggressive to a toddler with LD and ASD was a significant warning red flag and to get on top of it pronto. If it was the other way around and you were defending your older DS (“but he didn’t actually hit him and DSS was throwing toys!”) you would be flayed alive on here.

You are not wrong to be protective of your tiny child, it’s actually your job. There is some truth in some of the more moderate comments about getting to the bottom of this l, making sure the older children have their needs met, time and coping strategies.

Good luck with it all.

The fact he listened to his dad proves he did know what he was doing and was in control of his actions.

Not necessarily. When a child isn’t really aware of their actions a sharp word from an adult can often bring them back to reality. I couldn’t even count the number of times I’ve seen a child about to do something dangerous (to themselves usually) but calling their name stops them in their tracks. Good kids sometimes make bad decisions, or lose control for a moment. The adults around them should primarily be trying to help them see what led up to that and how they could have stopped themselves. Actively teaching self control rather than assuming it is something all people naturally have.

Exactly this @Newuser82. It’s not about blame, but it’s about ensuring all the children and safe physically and mentally, and trying to solve the problem.

The issue is that he reacted with aggression. His instinct was to attack a small child. That is not good. Most of the time when children hit out, it is when they feel under threat or it's in retaliation. That was not the case here. He wanted to punish the 4-year-old with violence for throwing a car (not even at him).

Nobody is saying it's good though.

From DSS's viewpoint, his parents have divorced/separated, his dad has gone on to live with someone else and have a severely disabled child who lives with him 24/7 while he has to split his time between two homes.

It's not easy to have a severely disabled sibling when your parents are still together and you've not gone through the upheaval of separation and all that brings. Parents of disabled children have posted about how bloody hard they find it and they're adults in full control of their actions - this is a 10yo boy full of pre-teen anger and hormones.

Yes, he was aggressive and yes, that has to be dealt with, but ultimately - he listened to his dad and nothing actually happened. The 4yo didn't get hurt and the 10yo didn't hit anyone - so it doesn't help anyone to act like that's what happened.