DH contacted the OW shortly after ‘ending it’…

[Pickle991]

I have a previous thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4564371-when-do-you-finally-throw-in-the-towel-after-affair-discovery

To recap I discovered just over half a year ago DH had had multiple affairs. We have 3 young DC. Latest was emotional and physical and he only ended it when I found out at my insistence.

We have been trying to reconcile. Tbh I think I am still in shock. However yesterday I found out he had been in contact with the most recent OW again after he had ended it, shortly after I initially found out.

He said it was to ‘end it properly on his own terms’ and they haven’t restarted anything. I am fairly sure that’s true as I’m not sure he would have had the opportunity. She lives very far away now and DH has been WFH. I have sight over everything inc. bank accounts so I’d notice if anything was amiss. But it just makes me feel there was a lot more between them than he let on although he denies it. He has also looked her up on social media since too, which he doesn’t know I know, but no contact.

I feel like this is just another betrayal AGAIN and it’s small in comparison to everything else, ie, nothing has carried on. But it’s made me feel like the one who has essentially ripped them apart and that DH is only staying for DC and he still misses her. I don’t know if I’m overreacting and should focus on the fact he has been trying to make things work and residual feelings are normal, or if I am always going to be compared unfavourably to her and they would still be together now if I hadn’t found out. It was a fairly long term thing.

We had made some progress reconciling, in that we’re at least not at loggerheads so much, still don’t know if it will work in the long run but it’s been hard and now I don’t know if it’s worth throwing all that away because of this now.

I read this the other day and thought of the OP

They don't lie to you because the truth will hurt your feelings or they'll 'get in trouble'
They lie to you because the truth might provoke you to make choices that won't serve their interests

@Cornflakegirll I don’t think the issue here since reconciliation is him just carrying on being a selfish a**hole and needing time to change. It speaks volumes of where his priorities and feelings lie. With the best will in the world, you can’t change your true feelings. It wasn’t a one off. These were multiple long term affairs pointing to something fundamentally missing in the marriage. Regardless of what was said in that conversation, he felt the need to contact the OW for some reason even knowing it was a huge risk.

@Pickle991 this was after he’d been TOLD to end it, with you having sight of what was said. So you didn’t even trust him to end the affair, which means deep down you know he can’t have genuinely wanted to stay in the marriage. If you had wanted to divorce what do you think he would have said? If he’d still been allowed access to his children and they weren’t a factor in that decision, as much as that is possible? Honestly?

This is not a man who is staying in the marriage because he wants to but because he has been told to. Immediately you are not on the same page. He is doing what he can to placate you on a surface level whilst not truly desiring it in his heart.

there was no true acknowledgement of what the relationship with latest OW really was, so the foundation upon which you’re attempting to reconcile isn’t real. You were never moving forward from an honest place. He told you the minimum of what he thought he could get away with and kept
having to readjust his story when it didn’t add up.

it depends if you want a (barely) functioning marriage / coparenting arrangement or one that is actually based on love and respect. Do you want to be with someone you constantly feel the need to control, and watch? He has shown you where his heart lies.

I can't believe you are still obsessing over this one weird contact detail when the man has cheated repeatedly and made such a fool out of you.

It’s not so much obsessing, it’s more we had agreed to try to reconcile and there has been a lot of effort for the last few months and now I didn’t know if it changes things given it happened right after the event.

I think in all honesty that it can’t be saved. But I can’t make any definitive decisions until I know I’m strong enough to see it through because whilst I can’t trust my own judgement or thoughts on things I know he will be able to persuade me otherwise. It feels like a small thing in the context of everything, but I don’t think it is. It’s what it says about how he feels about the whole thing and actually wanting to make it work. Appreciate all the input on here, I know it might be difficult for some to understand but it helps get my thoughts straight.

With all due respect your insights are pretty old now. Many people in affair psychology now realise that infidelity and cheating is not always anything to do with the marriage or something 'missing' or any other victim blaming nonsense.

I'm not here to get into a debate with you though, I offered my thoughts to the OP after reading extensively around this subject,

@Cornflakegirll I wasn’t victim blaming at all. I do think though there is a difference between a one off event, one night stand, short sexual fling, and multiple long term affairs with one being emotional as well as physical. The fault entirely lies with the cheater, as there are other ways of ending a marriage other than cheating. Which is always the risk when you take that decision.

But relationships do involve two people and there can be issues in the relationship that drive people to cheating, not that that makes it right. Yes in seemingly ‘perfect’ relationships, some people do still cheat, but if there is an emotional element to a long term affair, that tends to suggest someone’s emotional needs aren’t being met and there is an element of detachment in the marriage. Probably both, but just one person has done the cowardly thing and sought that elsewhere rather than addressing the issue.

The circumstances in every case are different but here OP’s DH didn’t even make the decision to end the affair. Reconciliation is impossible unless both parties really want it, for the right reasons, no matter how much work is done or whether there are changes in behaviour, otherwise in a few years down the line the same problem will crop up.

I’m glad you had a successful reconciliation and maybe OP will too. These were just my thoughts and not victim blaming on any way, of course.

If he genuinely wanted to send her a message to end contact, he would have done it with you, not behind your back. The right way to terminate these affairs is for the couple to together send a message to the third party to say 1) that it's over and 2) that there must be no further contact. Doing it on his own behind your back is highly suspicious, totally inappropriate and a breach of trust that prioritises the OW's feelings over yours.

@BetterFuture1985 well that’s the thing, he did do it with me, thought it was all done and at least I’d known he’d done it and what was said, and then he contacted her again afterwards.

Maybe he felt he owed her a better explanation. That doesn't automatically mean he did this because he had feelings for her. Ignoring the cheating, is he a decent bloke usually? Does he treat strangers respectfully, is he polite, that sort of thing?

Ah, okay. So there's two possibilities. Either she's ignored the request for no contact or there's been further contact at his instigation but now he's changed his mind.

If she's ignored the request and he's just messaged her once to say "go away" then what you need to do is:

1. Explain to him that if this happens again he must tell you immediately and responses should be agreed between the two of you;
2. Have a solicitor draw up a no contact letter that is sent to her. He can forgo a purchase on himself to pay the £100 or so this will cost;
3. Insist he changes his telephone number and email address and gives you access to both for a period of 1 year. A year is long enough for him to get over his affair and gives finality so he knows you won't be monitoring him forever.

If it's that he instigated, then you've been through a false reconciliation and it's really time to call it a day.

@BetterFuture1985 no it wasn’t her who instigated, it was him. And then as far as I know, no contact since.
@cafcass123 and yes he is usually, and that’s the explanation he gave, however, given this was someone he was romantically and sexually involved with I find it hard to believe he was ‘just being polite’. But yes I do agree it doesn’t 100% mean there are residual feelings. So I am just weighing up this with the behaviour since. And the context overall.

You are doing amazingly well, weighing it all up. It just seems to me you're a tiny bit too close to the situation to allow yourself to believe he contacted her for the reason he said (that, any many LTB posts on here). I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do but I felt strongly that I had to give you my (informed) opinion about men contacting their ex AP after the affair is stopped.
Given his behaviour since, I would say he wanted to end things with her on the best terms possible. What I would still be asking, if I was in your shoes, relates to his continued behaviour. He's given you the bog standard excuses, but men who repeatedly cheat often do so because of some deep-rooted reason. That's why I think he needs to visit a psychologist. Counselling for you both wouldn't really solve anything. He needs to be assessed.

I mean his previous continued behaviour in previously cheating on you.

no it wasn’t her who instigated, it was him. And then as far as I know, no contact since.

As far as you know. Based on my own experience, the fact he went behind your back to instigate contact is deeply concerning and he's only admitting to what you know. At the very least, be alert. Question everything that doesn't add up, no matter how small. He's been out of the house claiming to be somewhere 10 miles away but his car mileage is an extra 50 miles, be suspicious. He suddenly wants to spend more time with friends, be suspicious. He claims to be interviewing for a new job, be suspicious. Etc.

I suspect he did it to get one over on you. He was taking back control and laughing to himself when doing it. And I’m sorry if that upsets you but when a person has been through this and you can see the wood for the trees you can start to look at things from the psychological makeup/ thought process of the cheater. Again, these people are not psychologically sound and would more than likely be labeled with a personality disorder.

I don’t necessarily think it was to get one over on OP, but it does speak volumes about where his priorities lie and what his true feelings were.

also when relationships end up with some kind of power struggle, someone feeling controlled, coerced, even if they might ‘deserve’ it, that’s never going to end well.

eventually he’ll stop feeling guilty and it will be right back to how he actually feels, which is what he was acting on before. And it will happen again.

it is easier and far healthier to find someone more worthy, even if the prospect of being single for a while seems scary.

good luck OP.

How about the other multiple affairs? Why Is it just this affair that bothers you?

@Catlover1970 all of them bother me. But I found out about all in one go and because the most recent was current and the most serious it’s been the hardest to mentally overcome, and I guess it all just merged into one big mess because of how I found out and in my head it’s all one and the same. Had I found out about each on separate occasions, at the time, I think it would be different.

I feel like the most recent was more of a threat to the marriage (even if that seems illogical) as the others he had ended of his own accord? That didn’t happen with this one.

but god yes obviously I am ‘bothered’! I feel sick thinking about all those memories at the time and then he was living this whole secret life. Just the most recent feels like the most immediate crisis.

I have sought legal advice just to have an awareness of options and I do agree with PPs who have suggested therapy for myself. I have been in shock and survival mode and in all honesty, not wanted to have to go through it all with a stranger as it makes it so real… but I think this has just shown how much I need to actually think about and deal with now as it feels like it just keeps coming. I thought we were reconciling from a place of honesty but obviously not and that changes things.

“I know that might seem pathetic but when your whole world has been tipped upside you don’t know yourself, your thoughts, anything.”

None of your reaction is ‘pathetic’, it’s perfectly normal and understandable. It’s too easy and all very well to say “LTB” when it’s not your life or your family or your husband.
You are in shock and need time to absorb what you have found out and whether or not you can continue with him or not.
However, protect yourself first, you have to face the fact that you need to put yourself first no matter what. No matter how scary.
Take a deep breath and decide that whatever happens, stay or leave, (your decision) a new (and final) line in the sand is drawn and communicated to him right now with firm, non-negotiable boundaries and consequences for breaching them. Tell him what these are and there will be no discussion, no listening to begging and pleading, any further breach and he will have demonstrated by his actions that he did not mean a word and that will be that.
And then be fully prepared to follow through and know what that will look like. Plan it. Know your exit and know that you can change your mind any time you like.
But enough really is enough. Any further contact with any former OW will be the end. Mean it.
He’s a serial offender and therefore has many serious issues which need addressing and is currently unsafe for you if this goes ignored. If he doesn’t agree with this, or blames you for his poor choices, then I’m afraid it is very likely to happen again.
The choice to stay or leave us yours, but if you decide to stay, you get to choose what that looks like and how that operates.
You feel in shock and as if everything is spiralling out of control, I know. You can’t control anyone, especially not him, so don’t try. The good news is that you control you. Make choices and decisions which protect you and your children and stick to them. You caused none of this, deep breath, head high, now decide what your future with or without him looks like and draw your lines. XX

Let's be blunt. You are not living your best life with this man, are you? In fact, let's be blunter still. You are not living a good life with him, are you?

In my desperation to hold my own family together, I went through five false reconciliations with my own ex-wife. She was in a grim cycle and dragged the whole family in. Boredom and resentment on her part; cheating app; hookups; affair; becoming angry and evasive with everyone in the family (the clue something was up); investigation by me; discovery; blaming me for it; wallowing in self pity for a few weeks and then repeat.

Perhaps we didn't have the best marriage* in the end as like a lot of millennials I had to work a lot a commute away in order to get and pay the mortgage and she had a lot to do at home. However, there are healthy ways to deal with that like talking problems through or maybe agreeing to divorce if things can't be resolved. Cheating though is an unnecessary stage and it's not one you need to put up with.

Nor will your children thank you for it if you do. Your relationship is not a healthy one and what eventually did it for me was realising kids being brought up by parents in a dysfunctional relationship was far, far worse than having parents who were divorced. Dysfunctional relationships lack trust and affection and might shape the relationships your own children have.

The reality is you have a serial cheat for a partner like I did and the only way your life will start to get better is when you say enough is enough. As the woman rather than the man in my case I appreciate that might mean something slightly different to you than it did for me. Perhaps you earn less than him and do more of the childcare. It does affect divorce. To live your best life, I cannot encourage you enough to not only divorce him but also to make sure he pulls his weight and provides childcare so you can have your own full life of children, home, work and friends.

*An Aside
At this stage I feel necessary in saying I don't think I was a terrible husband, because I've often been attacked on Mumsnet by people who don't know me and who make assumptions about the kind of person I am. I've even had one saying they hope my children get a nice stepfather. I feel I have to say this because when you're the man cheated it doesn't really fit the stereotypes unless you're an absolute bastard. The stereotype of people who have affairs are horny, scumbag husbands, single slutty women, people who spend too long with a work colleague and women with abusive husbands. In the minds of some people by default, I must surely be a part of the latter to fit the stereotype.

I would encourage people to take a look at some of the sites my ex-wife went on because it will really change your perception. From a straw poll of the profiles I saw, I would say most people who have affairs are men who feel sorry for themselves and stay at home mums who resent their lives. I agreed my ex-wife could be a SAHM because she wanted to and I went for years having no money for myself so that her and the children would be provided for. Admittedly I'm quite rude about my ex-wife now but it's very hard to like someone who was your life partner who cheated and lied repeatedly then tried to ruin you in a divorce and now constantly complains about money!

Update…

We had a huge row last night, he admitted how he felt about OW and why he spoke to her, which was to explain just that. Not to carry anything on but to tell her how he felt.

I asked if he loved her and he said ‘I never told her I loved her’.

Well that’s not the question I asked…!

I asked him honestly why he wanted to reconcile if he immediately essentially started lying again, so any reconciliation would be based on more dishonesty, even if the reasons hadn’t been to restart the affair.

He said he hadn’t actually expected me to want to continue with the marriage. That he never wanted to get divorced because of DC but he feels ultimately he is probably staying in the marriage out of guilt and obligation and he’s been confusing that with love for me but ultimately he is so confused about how he feels, and had been when he contacted OW too. Swears nothing has happened since. Said things have been so bad between us he can’t see it getting better. He confessed to missing OW.

He also said he was terrified of me stopping him having access to DC if we were to split.

Anyway, I told him to leave. My mum is coming to help me with DC. He’s at a friend’s house for now until I decide on what to do next.

I feel sick. Like our whole marriage has been a lie. He said after I found out he was committed to reconciliation, begged to be allowed to stay, cried. But obviously all for the wrong reasons when it comes down to it.

Feel so worthless and alone and totally stupid for trying to give this another chance.

you will feel all sorts of things because you’re probably a very nice lady who found herself caught up with a serial cheat and his far from normal mind. Eventually though you’ll come to realize that everything is on him, even the new attitudes he‘ll adopt going forward that have always been there but have been kept well hidden from view.

These people are the worlds best at making others feel as if everything is their fault but just keep reminding yourself going forward - this is all about you and nothing about me.

Its great that your mum is coming to help you. Just lean on her and be her girl who needs a bit of looking after for the time being.

Sorry, just to add, that being on the receiving end of a serial cheat is nothing like being on the receiving end of one affair. Please make sure that any counseling you have going forward is specific to serial cheating otherwise you’ll probably be stuck treading emotional mud and heartache for a very long time to come.

@JellyBellyNelly thank you 😞 appreciate all the support on here.

@Pickle991 A lot of men seem to think they will lose access to the children in a divorce but I don't really know why. Except for violent men (and women), it's only on very rare occasions when false allegations are made that a parent temporarily loses access to children. And in those very rare cases where there are false allegations, statistically custody eventually goes to the wrongly accused parent. Some resident parents do play silly buggers with access by all account but normally end on the wrong end of a court order and costs in the end.

You seem a nice person so I would recommend you give him some kind of assurance on the issue of access to the children (i.e. you're going to have to be able to earn money and you're going to need some you time anyway so he's got to step up as a parent and do his share. Don't let him just wriggle away for fun times with the OW and leave you as a single parent).

@JellyBellyNelly You're absolutely right that there is a difference between single affairs and serial cheats. My ex-wife was a serial cheat and there are pros and cons to it when it comes to your own mental "recovery." On the one hand, it was deeply hurtful that she'd play away with so many different men but only want income and admin from me. I guess the equivalent for a woman would be being married to a serial cheat who only uses their wife as an unpaid nanny. On the flip side, she never actually got emotionally involved with anyone else. She used them just as surely as she used me. It gives me some comfort to think these men were just used and discarded. In theory it should be easier to recover when someone has had multiple meaningless affairs rather than one deep and emotional one. However, in practice of course, they don't see any harm in their behaviour as long as they aren't caught and they never reform, they just get more sneaky.