In laws doing my head in, midlife crisis and what to do next?

[Onceuponawhileago]

Hello good people of Mumsnet. Long term user - namechanged.

I'm M 49 and my wife is 50. Together 23 years, two kids 15 and 12.
I come from a different background than my wife, mine is working class, history of sexual abuse and subsequent addiction and alcohol issues. I went through many years of counselling and addiction suport and got better.

My wife comes from a wealthy background- in our relationship we are pretty good together. We share children stuff, I do most of the cleaning, house organising and any ongoing repairs etc as its an old house. My wife is not really into cleaning and more messy than me, I figure that cleanliness matters to me so I do it for me rather than have arguments about it. Cannot get a cleaner - too remote.

Years ago we started living close to her parents- their house is on a farm, ours on the farm too and so we see them most days. I would say her parents are essentially kind but not very empthatic, tone deaf sometimes and oblivious to poorer people and especially my kind of background. Often they just 'dont understand' why we dont have a cleaner or repair the house etc. Its because we are on average salaries living in a house that requires more upkeep than we can afford. My wife will inherit a lot of money so in a way she feels she should stay close to her parents and also its her family home and will inherit farm etc.

Her parents farm the land but badly so lots of stuff falling down etc. They want full contol of their farm and are gettting more difficult as they age so wont accept suggestions of getting in help on the farm even though they have millions in the bank and could easily pay for a nicer life.

I'm not money motivated, happy in my job, grew up with very little.

I am really worn down by constantly having in laws in my life- every day, thinking about how we will manage as they get older, how we will get them to accept help etc.

My wife just trudges on, is happy to just be as is.
I have a fantasy of a smaller house, no in laws, less cleaning and an easier, smaller and peaceful life.

I dont think I want to seperate- thats a big price to pay for a simple life plus impact on kids. Because I grew up with very little I have no attachment to this place or to wealth.

Happy for advice.

Is your MIL so bossy because the family farm and wealth came from her, so she feels justified in controlling everyone, or is she just the bossy type?

Thats a really great question! I never ever thought about that. I think she brings more wealth and my FIL is also wealthy but less so. She is ruled by money and money in the family is never really discussed - low key. Except for recent inheritance stuff where they had to discuss it. My MIL parents were very rich and very very tight although lovely people they really lived on air - would not spend, ate reduced food etc. So she came from that so money is a big thing in her mind. Normally in this kinda family you get someone marrying in with more wealth and the same social circles but in this situation it was me! Totally not having any money and not wanting any and that kinda blew my MIL mind as she assumed that I would be actively WANTING some but I dont. So thats taken some power away. having lots of money is odd tho because it puts people in a state of protecting it. I look at Harry and Meghan and I totally get that scenario.

When i say no to my MIL on something its like an atomic bomb was let off - she cannot believe it.

Is she a class snob? Does she possibly think you should doff cap and tug forelock before obediently doing her bidding? And feel grateful for the opportunity to do so too.

Do you have any idea what your wife would write if she posted here?

It seems like you may only be able to see your side of things. And also only to see your own contributions while not valuing hers.

It took way too long in this thread for you to tell us that your children ride competitively and your wife is running a business. Prior to that it sounds like she was just lazy and didn’t mind watching you do all the work.

I agree - I am seeing things slightly differently now.

Well the nature of this forum is that you come with your issue and welcome other viewpoints so she is free to do the same if she wanted. I do value her contributions as she does mine but clearly we have communication issues. Not uncommon and probably in my case made more tricky by in laws. Would it be radically different if we lived away from them?

We both work hence the lack of time. Average incomes which get whittled away on an extra large house. I never said that she was lazy or watched me do the work I was overwhelmed by the inability to help me with a bigger than average workload and mental load due to living where we do. Thats a consequence of us both deciding to live here, if I had my choice again I'd certainly think harder.

OP. One thing worth bearing in mind about long relationships is that the people of all those years ago who first met are now only the ghosts of memory. The change is often subtle and thus you don't think things have changed. But they do. People grow apart, need different things, but it's often as if we still expect the person we initially fell in love with to remain unchanged. Trapped in amber.
What really matters is compatibility in the here and now. With hindsight, I realise that the last 10 years with my dearly departed were more akin to companionship in a gulag rather than a meaningful relationship. He was content to grow old. I was 6 years younger and not yet ready to embrace cronedom. But I didn't want to find out what lay beyond the gulag walls, so stuck it out to the bitter end. And so we made each other unhappy in our own different ways.

I’m not personally interested in her viewpoint but think it’s pretty important that you, as her husband try to see it.

You’ve written quite a bit here and about the behaviors of your wife and your MIL from your own perspective and about your own feelings.

My suggestion is to now put that same effort into viewing your own behaviors through the eyes of others, and in trying to imagine how they are feeling. Or openly ask them and be prepared to listen.

Marshall Rosenberg, Non Violent Communication is a really good book for improving communication and empathy.

My instinct is -
MIL and FIL controlling
DW controlled by parents, very enmeshed, to the degree that this all feels just 'how things are'. Cannot see that this necessarily means that OP's needs are brushed aside, over and over.
At the same time, she is also bearing the load in other ways than OP - the OP is not the family skivvy, but is rather doing different and equally necessary things.

Completely aside from the PIL dynamic, OP and DW value cleanliness very differently. OP is right to value it, particularly given a neglectful (and much worse) childhood, and to be upset that it's not given more weight in the relationship, but at the same time, the DW is doing other important things, and in her world, a world in which there is not enough time, why would she throw away the important things (business, kids' competitive sports which are huge to them, and parents, even if toxic) for something she has not been brought up to value.

So: your DW is not an abuser, but you need to do couples therapy with a time limit. If things don't shift in a permanent way, at the very least on the cleaning front and an understanding that you won't do dinner and there is an absolute rule of privacy, no showing up in your garden or your house, you should allow yourself to separate from her. You will never be happy otherwises. Kids leave home.

Clearly my learning from this scenario is I communicate in a way (in difficult circumstances) that does not help my wife be the best person she could be and causes us further issues. I expect her to see things my way, immediately and actually she likes a more nuanced way of looking at things. I don't knowingly set out to undermine her but I realise that communication on my part can do that.

@Onceuponawhileago
Yes, the talking past each other for years thing is jumping out from your posts, and there is a pattern to your posts here too. You started out on this thread blowing off steam, then reflected on responses, and saw things from another angle.

You had the very 'personal narrative' driven conversation during the evening, which achieved nothing except to alienate your family, and have since tried to uncover what went so wrong, and to right it.

I think I see a pattern where you build up a good deal of resentment, followed by a verbal lashing out, causing reinforcement of the narrative where your wife is ignoring you and ignoring the problems, she's ruining your life and her parents suck and why can't she see what losers they are, and so on and so on, and ending with a crescendo of, "If I didn't do everything, we would end up wallowing in our own filth".

What you have going for you is that you are open to reflection and to instigating change. In particular, your intention to apologise to your children is encouraging.

As you go forward, please do not expect overnight changes in your family's response to you. Your relationship with the children in particular may get worse before it gets better. They don't have the prior experience of life that they could use to put your communication style or your approach to fixing problems into perspective. Life in your home is all they have seen of life. They will want to see if any change in you is real and it will take time for them to get used to it.

You are going to have to rebuild the trust of your wife and children from the ground up. You are going to have to demonstrate sincere patience and an ability to understand that the people you love are not clones of you. It looks from your recent long post where you described the reconciling conversation that your wife feels a lot of stress as a result of your efforts to whip her into shape, and you have a lot of ground to make up here in the trust department. You might like to try Retrouvaille, a programme focusing on developing positive communication in relationships and letting go of old dead-end habits, patterns, and narratives.

I would suggest you make an effort to get involved in the children's pony habit and become part of the world that is so important to them. You should also seek out something you and the children could enjoy together, like movies you could watch together, music you could share, bird watching, etc. It looks as if they don't have the time to take up hiking, which would be nice for you all to do together, but that's ok. It's better for the task you have ahead of you to reach out to them rather than beginning with getting them into your interests.

Above all, please do not approach the restoring of your relationships with your wife and children with the same energy and expectations that you would bring to a project at work. Your family members are not people to be fixed, and the relationship is going to have normal ups and downs regardless of how well things improve. Some things are going to continue to annoy you. Do lots of listening and lots of emotional honesty tempered with humility and a genuine desire to understand and appreciate the differences others embody.

@mathanxiety

What a great post

Do you love her? I've not heard any emotion from you at all. And your kids...you barely mention them.

What do you get from being with your wife? So far you've only mentioned that you'd miss the sex if you weren't with her.

And your kids...do you spend any time together? Do you talk? Share anything? I know they're busy with pony stuff, but again..no emotion, no warmth in your tone for any of your immediate family.

I have missed some important posts by the OP, apols - but @mathanxiety that is a fantastic post and I don't think any of us could go wrong following that advice. I will, erm, reflect myself.

And OP, I'm sorry, I did miss a couple of very important posts from you about the dinner conversation and the subsequent one, apols. Ignore my last one.

Sorry to be the voice of dissent, but I'm quite surprised by this read of the situation tbh. I actually think that OP's comment about 'not helping his wife to be the best person she could be' is taking way too much upon himself. What about his wife's responsibility to be the best person she can be? Is it up to him to encourage and reinforce positive behaviour, as if she were a puppy or a toddler?

And now apparently it's also up to him to 'rebuild trust' and 'demonstrate sincere patience and an ability to understand that the people you love are not clones of you'. Whereas she gets to do things the way she's always done them, surrounded by people who reinforce her view of things, and OP just has to get over himself and be more understanding about it - all presumably while trying not to trip over a pile of junk and end up in a puddle of dog puke.

I agree that his tone has changed over the course of the thread but to me it's sounded more like a capitulation. He arrived so stressed by it all that his head was about to explode and a couple of pages later, he's tried to talk to her, she's had her usual strop, he's decided he was probably at fault and must do better in future, and they're back to business as usual. I'm guessing this is a well worn trajectory that will continue until he gets tired of all the backpedalling and resentment sets in again.

I'm afraid I think she's getting off very lightly in this narrative. She's a 50-something woman, not a little girl. It's not on to be refusing to discuss things like a grown-up because she's overwhelmed by 'shame', whether that's the mess, the time the pony stuff takes, the ILs' encroachment on their day-to-day life, or the long-term plan for the farm. She needs to start meeting him in the middle imo.

I read @mathanxiety post a few times.I think that I have lots to mull over and certainly stuff to change. I cant help thinking - about my wife though. What would you advise her? She is continuing behaviours that cause friction, resentment and lack of trust. Sure, I react to them but they also occour despite clear discussion. Just to be clear, I dont mind if my wife does not want to do stuff or does not see it as important, she just needs to tell me that, preferably at the discussion stage when she agrees rather than at the later end of the trajectory where I am more frustrated. Then I can decide if I want to do it or not. Will definitely try talking through in more detail so we are clear as to what she would or would not like to do. But, she is an adult too.

What would you advise her? She is continuing behaviours that cause friction, resentment and lack of trust. Sure, I react to them but they also occour despite clear discussion. Just to be clear, I dont mind if my wife does not want to do stuff or does not see it as important, she just needs to tell me that, preferably at the discussion stage when she agrees rather than at the later end of the trajectory where I am more frustrated.

I think you should consider that it is your verbal approach that is causing your wife's style of response.

Your 'clear discussion' from which consensus emerges might well be her 'nodding along in order to prevent an argument'.

She has to regain trust in you and in the world at large if she is to fully understand that you are equally as willing to accept a no from her as a yes.

I suspect your wife has experienced trauma somewhere in her life just as you have.

Your response to trauma was to become a fixer - you are trying to fix your home and fix the lives of your ILs, and it is your career too.
Hers is to become a person who does not take the wheel, who values lack of pressure above all else.

Saying yes in order to get someone off your back is also something people do when they have ADD.

She has to regain trust in you and in the world at large if she is to
fully understand that you are equally as willing to accept a no from her
as a yes

This is important.

You have the capability of taking control over your annoyance over the mess.

You get a cleaner, it's a big house and clearly both of you don't have time to do it, your wife is spending her time working and attending to your children's very time consuming hobby.
Maybe you could help her with that to take some pressure off her. How much time does she have for herself, as you do with the hillwalking and solo pursuits?

I'm presuming you don't have a mortgage so there should be funds to ease the upkeep of the home.

So you both work, but she deals with the children and you have time for your stuff, you don't do any farm stuff or deal with her parents, which she probably does as her keeping cordial relations with them is important for you both, keeping a home and the children's inheritances.

You say you don't care about money but this is what families do, they are beholden to some degree, like it or not and unless you are willing to tear her away from their family dynamic and go and fund another life without any of their help then you will continue to resent them for any control over you.

It sounds as though you are sick of waiting for them to disappear and be the only controlling force in your home.
Your wife probably feels safe with her parents next door.

You really are in a privileged possition but can only see things from your point of view, I think you have lost sight of how hard couples have to work together just to put food on the table and to have a roof over their heads.
Cleaning is not that big of a deal that it can't be sorted or delegated, it seems petty to be continually berating your wife and making her cry because you have power issues.

I cant help thinking - about my wife though. What would you advise her?

Get. A. Cleaner. Pay their travel expenses if you need to.
Prior to that, hire a decluttering expert and a skip.

Chuck some money at saving your marriage as your husband is sinking and you're not holding up your end of the bargain.

Sounds very much like you live in Downton Abbey with the hierarchical set up and you are staff.

Exhausted just reading this thread.

I'd be saying I need more help and when kids older we are moving.

My husband and I live near my family (not an issue for him) and his are couple of hours away. Have told him when my elderly parents are no longer around and kids moved on he can choose where we go should he want to be closer to his brothers etc I'll go anywhere he wants. It can't all be one way forever. You sound checked out and I don't detect any warmth really for your family life . Crunch time before it gets worse

Why are people assuming OP doesn't have a mortgage or that he's in the privileged position of not having to work to provide for his family like everyone else? He's already said that he does.

We both work self employed.
We both earn an average wage. My wife works four days.
I wofk fulltime.
We have a mortgage.
We have bills.
We have refurbishment and maintenance costs which we save for.
We dont go on longer holidays than a few days because kids are competing, dont have the money and PIL cannot look after ponies any longer than a few days.
There is no cash left at end of month.

Thanks. Yeah I guess it matters more to me than my wife how we live. She is very self content in her life.
I think a discussion about down the road is a good thing to have but she finds that difficult - even a 'throwing things around in our heads' sort of discussion. I have been curious as to why that is - maybe her mother was always directive so decisions were made for her, maybe she feels she can't decide the 'right' thing - I don't know. I do know that going there is not nice for her.
I think we have a big house with ongoing high running costs and repair costs and thats going to continue for a while at least.
If kids left for college or whatever we would have a lot of house!

Its possible to move to the smaller property on the farm which in my mind would be the perfect half way house - still close to parents, farm etc but our own entrance etc. So I see that as a good compromise. Its literally a 4 minute walk from where we are but seperate from everything and smaller. I'm not asking to move to France!!! And we could probably rent our house - not for a lot but enough to cover costs and repairs probably.

I think my wife gets paralysed by this stuff - really emotional - not because I am forcing her or pressuring her for an answer but if the conversation is ' What do you think we should do in 6 - 8 years time' she just can't go there. If I knew there was a commitment to downsizing in a few years it would help I think. She very much does not want a plan and is slightly chaotic but it absolutely works for her in day to day life - an amazing ability to 'leave' things kind of to themselves - so not a planner - opposite of me!. Maybe a 'we will see closer to the time' perspective might work for me. I think a 3rd party to mediate this would be useful.

I am warm and connected to my family but if the stress of everything I talk about was slightly relieved that would make for a more pleasant life. Cleaner starts today so we live in hope!

We went for dinner to PIL last night and I made an effort to really 'watch' what their dynamic was. Her mother controlling and bossing everything - where people sat, which bowl went where, scolding my FIL who did not oppose her. So it was interesting to watch that dynamic in play- kind of school teacher/ child thing going on. Maybe I have replaced her mother in that role and that the constant 'scolding' is something she is very used to and accepting of. Maybe she never really decided anything and has no agency now. I know if she was hassling me about where to put the casserole dish on the dinner table I'd find it wearing pretty fast. So my wife is not coming to our relationship with a great model of communication and I bring my own stuff too.

Just had to respond to this to clarify a few assumptions.

You have the capability of taking control over your annoyance over the mess.
Agreed

You get a cleaner, it's a big house and clearly both of you don't have time to do it, your wife is spending her time working and attending to your children's very time consuming hobby. Agreed and I have done this. Cleaner starts today.

Maybe you could help her with that to take some pressure off her. How much time does she have for herself, as you do with the hillwalking and solo pursuits?
Her spare time she runs or walks or spends with horses. Horses and kids competing are her life - she is fully on board with horse stuff and we as a family work around this. I do my stuff when they are not here, sometimes I go with them but usually I do my thing and get dinner eady etc so they are fed when home.

I'm presuming you don't have a mortgage so there should be funds to ease the upkeep of the home.
We have a mortgage.

So you both work, but she deals with the children and you have time for your stuff, you don't do any farm stuff or deal with her parents, which she probably does as her keeping cordial relations with them is important for you both, keeping a home and the children's inheritances.
She avoids farm stuff as much as I do and is on the same page with the stupidity of farming the way they do. I also deal with the children and do an equal amount of drop offs, pick ups, cooking and cleaning.

You say you don't care about money but this is what families do, they are beholden to some degree, like it or not and unless you are willing to tear her away from their family dynamic and go and fund another life without any of their help then you will continue to resent them for any control over you.
I don't think so. I think her PIL are lucky to have their grandchildren so close and lucky that I am as tolerant as I am. They live in a nice place and in the 23 years I have been here I have turned what was a kip of a garden into something that has featured extensively in the press and gardening magazines. I did that on my own steam with my own money. So they get the benefits of us being there. We of course benefit from living in a nice place. If I were to do it again though I'd live somewhere else for lots of reasons - we are where we are though.

It sounds as though you are sick of waiting for them to disappear and be the only controlling force in your home. No, I'd like my own space though, to see less of them, hear less from them and feel like my space is mine and not be walking around in a shared space. If they did disappear tomorrow we would have to have a big conversation because their house, gardens, farm etc are a big source of things to be done.

Your wife probably feels safe with her parents next door.
????

You really are in a privileged possition but can only see things from your point of view, I think you have lost sight of how hard couples have to work together just to put food on the table and to have a roof over their heads.
Privilege comes with costs, both mental and physical. Would most people live with their pareents in law beside them for 23 years? I'm not so sure. The costs are more than we would pay for a 'normal' house. Of course theres the big 'inheritance payday' but so what? I dont really want any more money, anyway its not my money - its my wifes. Once our mortgage is paid I have no debt. What then?

Cleaning is not that big of a deal that it can't be sorted or delegated, it seems petty to be continually berating your wife and making her cry because you have power issues.
Cleaning can be sorted. I have done the majority of cleaning and have now organised a cleaner so lets see how that goes. I don't berate my wife. I don't have power issues. If she wants to share the load of cleaning then she can, or, if she does not she can say so. Just don't say you will help and then don't because ultimately your partner will have difficulty trusting what you say. She can say no if she wants and that is always presented as an option. Besides she is 50 and i'm assuming can make grown up decisions. It would be easier if I just learned to suck it up and NOT get wound up or resentful or if she learned to truly say what she feels which might be 'No I dont want to clean' then we can go from there.

It's a shame never to be able to go away because of all the pony competitions, and doesn't seem like a very balanced childhood. I get that it's important to your kids, but they weren't born with a desperate need to compete in gymkhanas or whatever to the exclusion of all else, so it does make me wonder whose happiness and wellbeing that (to an outsider, quite punishing) schedule is really all in aid of. I also think that it's part of parenting/adulting 101 to ensure some balance, even if your kids were potentially Olympic riders (and I presume they're not), i.e. some weekends spent doing other things, making sure there are friendships with kids other than riding friends, and yes, holidays. I'm not sure it's a good life lesson to grow up thinking that you can't ever have downtime because what about xyz.

The other thing that keeps popping up, OP, is mention of your wife's former partner, who I'm assuming died suddenly/unexpectedly/too young. It sounds as though you and she got together not that long afterwards, and I'm wondering if that has any bearing on any of your current problems. Was she still grieving? Any chance she might have rebounded into your marriage and later regretted it? Have you felt you were expected to slot into his place or be the husband he 'would have' been? I feel a lot of the detail of your family life has got away from you over a long period of years, which may be partly why it's so difficult to renegotiate things, but I'm also wondering how you let it get to that stage. Have you been afraid you were the 'substitute' and daren't assert yourself up to now?