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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Polygamy, first family and financial trouble - need some perspective here

339 replies

Lillonely · 04/06/2022 21:17

Right so I’m going to try and be as a clear as I can be without being massively outing.

DH is from a minority community in the UK. His father has 2 wives. MIL and SMIL. It was some nasty business how it was done, both had no idea. It is not bigamy because only one marriage is legal MIL, so please no bigamy Comments. Polygamy is accepted in DHs community. There is a clear 1st and 2nd family situation. DH grew up in squalor and 2nd family grew up with the best of the best. MIL has never worked a day in her life, (she’s a very simple woman, illiterate no English) she claims she couldn’t work, she doesn’t claim or has never claimed because she woildnt ride the bus to get to English classes and job interviews etc and obviously it was during school time/ working hours so DH couldn’t accompany her. From 16 years old DH worked 3 jobs whilst in school to provide for them. he still went to university and got a degree and started working but due to financial burden was racked in debt. House repairs, bills, her glasses, dents treatment, food, new boiler, bathroom, kitchen you name it, DH paid for it. FIL gave them when DH was a child a £15k auction house, so there were A LOT of repairs needed.

he met me, we married. Prior to marriage he was upfront about his debt, because he was in a v bad place and long story short he had to beg FIL to start covering MIL expenses (to be clear it is now religious and cultural obligation to do so especially in a polygamous marriage). We worked out his finances and he’s still paying his way out of debt nearly 10 years later. I’m from another culture and not to go into it because it’s not strictly relevant here but MIL has been quite unkind to me over the years, she is better now that I have children but it’s worth a mention:

it has come out that FIL has purposely cut MIL and DH out of the will. He probably assets included it’s about 300k. DH told MIL and she said she didn’t care it’s DHs responsibility to pay for her to live, that’s why she had him to take care of her and we should sell our house to take care of her because we shouldnt have bought a house. I don’t know where she thinks our 3 kids are supposed to live. He’s her only child.

FIL has had some health scares lately and with the rising cost of everything we’re both worried about this additional financial burden. She’s paid no NI so has no state pension. She has money but won’t spend that to top up NI because she’s saving it for a religious pilgrimage. We have good jobs and we most certainly do not live beyond our means. We live in the most affordable decent area commutable distance from where we work, but also close enough to her because she had a meltdown when she found out we wanted a house. We also have 3 kids and associated childcare and expenses, a 4 bed house, one car, no pets, we do have savings but it’s for our retirement at probably 80 and for overpayments and rainy day funds. We have good jobs like I said, between 85-90 before tax, but the rises in everything are steep. Mortgage looks like it will be going up by £200 a month (no extra borrowing) childcare has gone up by £7 per child per day, we all know about energy and petrol and inflation. Our annual rises didn’t even touch the sides of how high inflation is. We are fairly comfy and definitely aren’t kitted out in designer attire but I do feel loathed to stop the children having any hobbies or sell our house to cover the extra £5/600 for pcm for MIL cost of living, or basically live from paycheque to paycheque and start the cycle of debt, which is what would happen given the rises, which will keep rising. Even selling the house would be daft because what we paid for a 4 bed would get you a 3 bed now because property prices have risen so much.

FIL is a v unkind man who has treated her and DH like dogshit for years, I do genuinely believe the best outcome would be for MIL to file for divorce and then she’d be entitled to half of his assets, even if she just got 75k, it’s something. But she won’t. She’s also not w particularly nice person in truth, a lot of emotional manipulation and abuse has been used against dh over the years.
i cannot move in with her for my mental health so that’s not an option, even if we got on like a house on fire, it’s a v small house. 2 bed, one a small double and the other a single.

what’s the utopia here? I can’t think straight, how do you work through this situation. She won’t work, won’t claim, won’t divorce him, would spend her money on a pilgrimage rather than cost of living and will have no inheritance, it’s just for DH to figure out. DH has spoken to his M and it’s like banging head against a brick wall and frankly the things she is coming out with are repugnant. Like you can’t afford to take care of me, well you should have thought of that before you bought a house you can’t afford’. It’s making us both stressed and me quite angry because I’d never put this on my kids: I’ve got no issue with helping out someone in need or even helping her out a bit but I think we might go under if we took everything on with no other income.

can anyone suggest anything?

OP posts:
bellac11 · 05/06/2022 08:58

The problem is that OP has confirmed that the mother owns her own home, so that is good

But I thought she also said tht the mistress and the father in law jointly own the property they live in, so when father in law dies, the mother ends up owning jointly a house with the mistress, if the father in law's portion of the house goes automatically to his legal wife (the mother)

Is that right?

Greyisgood · 05/06/2022 08:58

When MIL becomes of state pension age she will be entitled to claim Pension Credit, see this link:
www.gov.uk/pension-credit#:~:text=Pension%20Credit%20is%20separate%20from,or%20own%20your%20own%20home.

You don't have to be claiming Housing Benefit to claim.

I would recommend getting hold of this book. It's not just for people with disabilities and has a basic guide to all state benefits.
shop.disabilityrightsuk.org/products/disability-rights-handbook-2022-2023

There are no easy answers, and not an uncommon scenario. I'm not sure about the wider situation with MIL but she sounds very isolated. Maybe try to find an activity group for women of similar age and background. There are still community groups functioning. She might find a friend there which could be a starting point for progression.

5zeds · 05/06/2022 09:24

It’s really not so different than if dh was the product of a one night stand, FIL then went on to live with his partner but gave MIL a house and has paid some money towards his child ever since. All the cultural stuff clouds the situation. While it’s true as FILs wife MIL has claim in his estate I don’t think SMIL is necessary that unreasonable. Her household income is presumably still being impacted long after her partners child is grown by these maintenance payments.
I think if MIL claims her UC and has to go to courses etc to help her into work it will be good for her. Of course it will be harder for dh while she gets used to it but surely it’s worth it? This woman sounds like her life has been so limited.

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:26

bellac11 · 05/06/2022 08:58

The problem is that OP has confirmed that the mother owns her own home, so that is good

But I thought she also said tht the mistress and the father in law jointly own the property they live in, so when father in law dies, the mother ends up owning jointly a house with the mistress, if the father in law's portion of the house goes automatically to his legal wife (the mother)

Is that right?

Yes that’s correct, except for the fact that he has a will leaving everything to mistress/ wife 2. Yes MIL might have a case to challenge the will but she won’t and the cost of doing so it’s prohibitive for DH

OP posts:
Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:28

Greyisgood · 05/06/2022 08:58

When MIL becomes of state pension age she will be entitled to claim Pension Credit, see this link:
www.gov.uk/pension-credit#:~:text=Pension%20Credit%20is%20separate%20from,or%20own%20your%20own%20home.

You don't have to be claiming Housing Benefit to claim.

I would recommend getting hold of this book. It's not just for people with disabilities and has a basic guide to all state benefits.
shop.disabilityrightsuk.org/products/disability-rights-handbook-2022-2023

There are no easy answers, and not an uncommon scenario. I'm not sure about the wider situation with MIL but she sounds very isolated. Maybe try to find an activity group for women of similar age and background. There are still community groups functioning. She might find a friend there which could be a starting point for progression.

On the eligibility page it says you need to be of retirement age and you or partner need to be claiming housing benefit

OP posts:
Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:29

5zeds · 05/06/2022 09:24

It’s really not so different than if dh was the product of a one night stand, FIL then went on to live with his partner but gave MIL a house and has paid some money towards his child ever since. All the cultural stuff clouds the situation. While it’s true as FILs wife MIL has claim in his estate I don’t think SMIL is necessary that unreasonable. Her household income is presumably still being impacted long after her partners child is grown by these maintenance payments.
I think if MIL claims her UC and has to go to courses etc to help her into work it will be good for her. Of course it will be harder for dh while she gets used to it but surely it’s worth it? This woman sounds like her life has been so limited.

Her life has been limited that’s right, but my husband can’t take her everyday to classes/ the job centre he has a job himself, understand this

OP posts:
5zeds · 05/06/2022 09:35

So presumably what would help is an enabler. I doubt it’s every day year round and she can be supported to learn how to do it. If you don’t change nothing is going to change.

Greyisgood · 05/06/2022 09:45

@Lillonely The link is confusing and I'm sure these are two separate clauses (i.e. if you are a 'mixed age' couple you need to be on HB). I made a successful Pension Credit claim for a lady who is a home owner a few days ago.

Use this benefits calculator but with details showing MIL is of pension age:

benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:46

5zeds · 05/06/2022 09:35

So presumably what would help is an enabler. I doubt it’s every day year round and she can be supported to learn how to do it. If you don’t change nothing is going to change.

It was previously several days a week she used to Claim and the person it impacted negatively was dh. She also doesn’t want to learn English or a skill or learn how to take public transport or taxis so it’s not a mild inconvenience, the places were all around the greater Manchester area (where we live) so he was having to take days off, make ransom excuses to leave work early, it was hours away so it’s not like it’s around the corner

OP posts:
Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:47

Greyisgood · 05/06/2022 09:45

@Lillonely The link is confusing and I'm sure these are two separate clauses (i.e. if you are a 'mixed age' couple you need to be on HB). I made a successful Pension Credit claim for a lady who is a home owner a few days ago.

Use this benefits calculator but with details showing MIL is of pension age:

benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/

Oh really? Thanks for the clarification this actually could be exactly what we need

OP posts:
Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:47

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 09:47

Oh really? Thanks for the clarification this actually could be exactly what we need

She’s not a British citizen though, does that make a difference

OP posts:
burnoutbabe · 05/06/2022 09:59

BlossomRussosHatCollection · 05/06/2022 08:19

OP, you don't seem to have listened to what people have told you. As the legal wife, FIL CANNOT cut out MIL. You can't "leave your money to whoever you want" if you have a living spouse. It belongs to the spouse. You can cut your kids out, and you can religiously believe your "second wife" has equal standing all you like. Legally, your estate belongs to the one and only legal spouse you have.

Personally, I'd school FIL on the law of the land he's living in, and make it clear if he dies while still married to MIL his entire estate legally belongs to her. He might divorce her then, and while you'd probably have to coach her through signing the papers and find a lawyer who speaks her language, she'd at least be able to get a chunk of his money then.

That is wrong

You can leave it to whoever you want.

But if anyone was dependent on you they have a claim and the courts will award what would be fair.

Which would probably be what they'd get in a divorce in this case.

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 10:33

burnoutbabe · 05/06/2022 09:59

That is wrong

You can leave it to whoever you want.

But if anyone was dependent on you they have a claim and the courts will award what would be fair.

Which would probably be what they'd get in a divorce in this case.

He also knows full well the law of the land, he was born and raised here. As much as I dislike the situation and the fact that MIL was basically duped into it and how his obvious motivation was to marry one that’s been arranged and then give her a kid hopefully a son so the son can deal with it and then he can marry the person he wants to. So even with all that in mind, he’s not breaking the law, both marriages aren’t legally registered, it’s Immoral to have a mistress and not treat your children the same, but it’s not illegal

OP posts:
Greyisgood · 05/06/2022 10:36

@Lillonely She needs to have recourse to public funds, so not about which passport she has. I would suggest you search Google for Manchester Welfare Rights (or Oldham/Rochdale/etc) as there will be help somewhere. I think that welfare rights organizations and law centres are often preferable to CAB, but that's my own opinion.

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 10:42

Greyisgood · 05/06/2022 10:36

@Lillonely She needs to have recourse to public funds, so not about which passport she has. I would suggest you search Google for Manchester Welfare Rights (or Oldham/Rochdale/etc) as there will be help somewhere. I think that welfare rights organizations and law centres are often preferable to CAB, but that's my own opinion.

That’s good to know, I’d done some googling and it said somethings are different if you’re not a British citizen wasn’t sure what’s what.

if she can get pension credit that will be sufficient, it’s more than she gets per week now bills included. But I think DH would have to have control over her finances, as currently she has no bank accounts or anything (they were closed due to dormancy because she doesn’t ‘believe in them’) so DH will have to set up the direct debits and all of that… which is doable.

thank you for the suggestion

OP posts:
iex · 05/06/2022 10:47

Lillonely · 04/06/2022 22:01

What does that mean?

It means the poster is displaying arsey behaviour

Vijia · 05/06/2022 10:48

A young woman, married off, no skills, not being given any money to raise her child in a country where she doesn't speak the language with a son who is her pride and joy; and now his wife is trying to force her to do things and go places where she has zero confidence and would lead her down an unknown path outside her comfort zone.

The power she exerts is her only power. She must be frightened and lonely. What an awful life she has endured. At least her son had options to study and make the best of his situation.

Making her the enemy is a big, shortsighted mistake.

Her only hope is her son and so of course her tentacles are stuck fast in the only person in the world who has been kind to her.

You say your mil's name is on the deeds. Are there any other names on the deeds? If not then it doesn't matter if in fil's will he does not give anything to her.

The house is in her name so that is not an asset fil can give to anyone else as it's not his to give.

Why would you try and educate the fil to divorce her? Makes no legal or financial sense if she owns the house anyway in her own name.

NoSquirrels · 05/06/2022 10:53

I’ve read all your post, OP, but not the whole thread.

I know you think challenging the will could be prohibitively expensive, but I think it would be worth a conversation with a solicitor who specialises in this at this stage to find out exactly whether you’d have a case likely to succeed and how much that might cost to challenge. Instead of just assuming it wouldn’t be viable.

Another reason to explore that now would be to infirm FIL and his second family that there could be a dispute after his death if he dies to make ‘reasonable provision’ for his dependents and next of kin (which his first wife is) - he may then be persuaded that leaving her a legacy is the right thing to do.

Try a post on Legal Matters board to ask about the will.

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 11:04

Vijia · 05/06/2022 10:48

A young woman, married off, no skills, not being given any money to raise her child in a country where she doesn't speak the language with a son who is her pride and joy; and now his wife is trying to force her to do things and go places where she has zero confidence and would lead her down an unknown path outside her comfort zone.

The power she exerts is her only power. She must be frightened and lonely. What an awful life she has endured. At least her son had options to study and make the best of his situation.

Making her the enemy is a big, shortsighted mistake.

Her only hope is her son and so of course her tentacles are stuck fast in the only person in the world who has been kind to her.

You say your mil's name is on the deeds. Are there any other names on the deeds? If not then it doesn't matter if in fil's will he does not give anything to her.

The house is in her name so that is not an asset fil can give to anyone else as it's not his to give.

Why would you try and educate the fil to divorce her? Makes no legal or financial sense if she owns the house anyway in her own name.

You are being ridiculous. I’m not forcing her to do anything, she used to claim years before DH even met me, she also stopped claiming before he and I met. Which is why I’m saying she won’t claim again.

you don’t know her. Confidence isn’t the problem, it’s will. She doesn’t want to learn English or any skill. Or she would have when her child didn’t have clothes to put on his back as a child, or he had to use his EMA to pay for her. I’m not denying FIL has done her dirty.

the house is in her and DH name because she lacks capacity. Ok yes so she has a roof over her head, but no means to paying any of the bills and expenses that entails. So yes it does matter if she is left anything. The house he lives in is palatial so it is an asset. It makes perfect sense to divorce or to try and get some sort of lump sum to finance her living expenses if she has no other income which she doesn’t. I will look into pension credit though.

aside from all of this I do feel like on a Moral level FIL owes her for all the shit he’s put her through. She deserves to have her house done up, she’s quite house proud, and to buy a few nice things: DH renovated it as a teen/ young adult but obviously budget was severely limited so you can imagine. FIL has put her through a lot so aside from her and my relationship on some a moral level he does owe her so it’s the least he can / should do. This is my opinion though and DH’s tbh he definitely wouldn’t see it this way

OP posts:
thenewduchessoflapland · 05/06/2022 11:10

Your MIL should divorce her husband and take the 50% of everything she's entitled too.

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 11:19

NoSquirrels · 05/06/2022 10:53

I’ve read all your post, OP, but not the whole thread.

I know you think challenging the will could be prohibitively expensive, but I think it would be worth a conversation with a solicitor who specialises in this at this stage to find out exactly whether you’d have a case likely to succeed and how much that might cost to challenge. Instead of just assuming it wouldn’t be viable.

Another reason to explore that now would be to infirm FIL and his second family that there could be a dispute after his death if he dies to make ‘reasonable provision’ for his dependents and next of kin (which his first wife is) - he may then be persuaded that leaving her a legacy is the right thing to do.

Try a post on Legal Matters board to ask about the will.

thats a good call! Thank you!

OP posts:
5zeds · 05/06/2022 11:41

Why isn’t she a British citizen?
When you say the house is in her and “dh”s name do you mean HER husband or yours?

Lolapusht · 05/06/2022 12:00

Is MIL legally married to FIL or did they just have a religious ceremony? If they didn’t legally marry in the UK (or have a legally recognised marriage abroad) then she can’t divorce FIL as they’re not married. If she’s not legally married to a British citizen the does she have a legal right to live here? I’m not sure how the process works, but if she came here, didn’t get citizenship through marriage would she not have to apply for ILTR (or whatever the correct terminology is)? If FIL isn’t legally married then your DH may be his next of kin so if he does become incapacitated then it will be your DH who has to make decisions, not MIL2. I’d speak to a solicitor to find out what everyone’s legal designation is so you can find out the potential legal consequences of people owning property/dying etc. it sounds like a nightmare and you have my sympathies.

Lillonely · 05/06/2022 12:05

5zeds · 05/06/2022 11:41

Why isn’t she a British citizen?
When you say the house is in her and “dh”s name do you mean HER husband or yours?

She wasn’t born here or raised here, when she came to the UK FIL didn’t apply for a British passport for her and now she wouldn’t pass the citizenship tests.

when I say DH I mean my husband and FIL his MIL and SMIL husband and DH father. Appreciate it’s all very daytime special

OP posts:
Lillonely · 05/06/2022 12:08

Lolapusht · 05/06/2022 12:00

Is MIL legally married to FIL or did they just have a religious ceremony? If they didn’t legally marry in the UK (or have a legally recognised marriage abroad) then she can’t divorce FIL as they’re not married. If she’s not legally married to a British citizen the does she have a legal right to live here? I’m not sure how the process works, but if she came here, didn’t get citizenship through marriage would she not have to apply for ILTR (or whatever the correct terminology is)? If FIL isn’t legally married then your DH may be his next of kin so if he does become incapacitated then it will be your DH who has to make decisions, not MIL2. I’d speak to a solicitor to find out what everyone’s legal designation is so you can find out the potential legal consequences of people owning property/dying etc. it sounds like a nightmare and you have my sympathies.

MIL is the legal wife, it’s how she came to the country and now she had official indefinite leave to remain but isn’t a citizen. DH birth certificate has been translated and FIL is written as his father on it, so legally I know where everyone stands. SMIL is ‘the other woman’ and has no rights to anything whereas MIL, is the legal wife.

to make things messier there was a third wife for a period of time but she ran for the hills after a few months and has no kids with him so no claim to anything

OP posts: