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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Polygamy, first family and financial trouble - need some perspective here

339 replies

Lillonely · 04/06/2022 21:17

Right so I’m going to try and be as a clear as I can be without being massively outing.

DH is from a minority community in the UK. His father has 2 wives. MIL and SMIL. It was some nasty business how it was done, both had no idea. It is not bigamy because only one marriage is legal MIL, so please no bigamy Comments. Polygamy is accepted in DHs community. There is a clear 1st and 2nd family situation. DH grew up in squalor and 2nd family grew up with the best of the best. MIL has never worked a day in her life, (she’s a very simple woman, illiterate no English) she claims she couldn’t work, she doesn’t claim or has never claimed because she woildnt ride the bus to get to English classes and job interviews etc and obviously it was during school time/ working hours so DH couldn’t accompany her. From 16 years old DH worked 3 jobs whilst in school to provide for them. he still went to university and got a degree and started working but due to financial burden was racked in debt. House repairs, bills, her glasses, dents treatment, food, new boiler, bathroom, kitchen you name it, DH paid for it. FIL gave them when DH was a child a £15k auction house, so there were A LOT of repairs needed.

he met me, we married. Prior to marriage he was upfront about his debt, because he was in a v bad place and long story short he had to beg FIL to start covering MIL expenses (to be clear it is now religious and cultural obligation to do so especially in a polygamous marriage). We worked out his finances and he’s still paying his way out of debt nearly 10 years later. I’m from another culture and not to go into it because it’s not strictly relevant here but MIL has been quite unkind to me over the years, she is better now that I have children but it’s worth a mention:

it has come out that FIL has purposely cut MIL and DH out of the will. He probably assets included it’s about 300k. DH told MIL and she said she didn’t care it’s DHs responsibility to pay for her to live, that’s why she had him to take care of her and we should sell our house to take care of her because we shouldnt have bought a house. I don’t know where she thinks our 3 kids are supposed to live. He’s her only child.

FIL has had some health scares lately and with the rising cost of everything we’re both worried about this additional financial burden. She’s paid no NI so has no state pension. She has money but won’t spend that to top up NI because she’s saving it for a religious pilgrimage. We have good jobs and we most certainly do not live beyond our means. We live in the most affordable decent area commutable distance from where we work, but also close enough to her because she had a meltdown when she found out we wanted a house. We also have 3 kids and associated childcare and expenses, a 4 bed house, one car, no pets, we do have savings but it’s for our retirement at probably 80 and for overpayments and rainy day funds. We have good jobs like I said, between 85-90 before tax, but the rises in everything are steep. Mortgage looks like it will be going up by £200 a month (no extra borrowing) childcare has gone up by £7 per child per day, we all know about energy and petrol and inflation. Our annual rises didn’t even touch the sides of how high inflation is. We are fairly comfy and definitely aren’t kitted out in designer attire but I do feel loathed to stop the children having any hobbies or sell our house to cover the extra £5/600 for pcm for MIL cost of living, or basically live from paycheque to paycheque and start the cycle of debt, which is what would happen given the rises, which will keep rising. Even selling the house would be daft because what we paid for a 4 bed would get you a 3 bed now because property prices have risen so much.

FIL is a v unkind man who has treated her and DH like dogshit for years, I do genuinely believe the best outcome would be for MIL to file for divorce and then she’d be entitled to half of his assets, even if she just got 75k, it’s something. But she won’t. She’s also not w particularly nice person in truth, a lot of emotional manipulation and abuse has been used against dh over the years.
i cannot move in with her for my mental health so that’s not an option, even if we got on like a house on fire, it’s a v small house. 2 bed, one a small double and the other a single.

what’s the utopia here? I can’t think straight, how do you work through this situation. She won’t work, won’t claim, won’t divorce him, would spend her money on a pilgrimage rather than cost of living and will have no inheritance, it’s just for DH to figure out. DH has spoken to his M and it’s like banging head against a brick wall and frankly the things she is coming out with are repugnant. Like you can’t afford to take care of me, well you should have thought of that before you bought a house you can’t afford’. It’s making us both stressed and me quite angry because I’d never put this on my kids: I’ve got no issue with helping out someone in need or even helping her out a bit but I think we might go under if we took everything on with no other income.

can anyone suggest anything?

OP posts:
HelenHywater · 07/06/2022 11:39

This is too long to read the whole thing, but the culture is irrelevant. Your Dh is in an abusive relationship ,and he is continuing in that abusive relationship to the detriment of you and his children.

You have to put your children first. Your DH HAS to cut them out of his life. Or you have some decisions to make. There is no way that you should be even thinking of selling your house to pay these awful people (because they are) your money. And yes, it is his fault. He is an adult and he can make choices to stop this ridiculousness. He has agency. Although it's harsh to say, you don't have an in-law problem, you have a DH problem.

Villagewaspbyke · 07/06/2022 17:02

Lillonely · 04/06/2022 22:55

I think you can cut out of your will whoever you chose, you could leave you entire estate to the rspca if you wanted and leave your kids nothing.

he’s talked to her about divorcing him before and she refuses, she doesn’t care she just thinks it’s DHs responsibility to look after her

Yes you are right op. You can indeed cut your spouse out of your will. They may be able to make a claim as a dependent but it’s difficult and expensive and doesn’t sound like she could manage it. Is her house in her name at least?

Villagewaspbyke · 07/06/2022 17:26

ivykaty44 · 06/06/2022 14:52

wife #2/ the other woman/ mistress or whatever you want to call her is listed on ALL other assets and has stealthily been moving everything into her name to basically abound a challenge to the will or the splitting of assets post divorce. THIS Is the issue with her that she has control over all assets other than the house that MIL lives in, and let me tell you it was a battle to get that in her name.

this could be perceived as deprivation of assests so done purposely to avoid payment, usually for nursing home but in this case a will

i would seek legal advice that the husband has transferred owner ship to another outside of the legal marriage

It’s perfectly permissible to transfer your assets to anyone you like. It’s not even like a divorce is in contemplation- it isn’t.

Villagewaspbyke · 07/06/2022 17:56

You definitely need to keep boundaries in place. She has treated you dreadfully. Your children need to be your first priority

ivykaty44 · 07/06/2022 19:56

Villagewaspbyke

you can give assets to who you like, but there may be consequences. Tax and county council/social services refusing to pay for nursing home care

MargotMoon · 08/06/2022 05:43

I've read all of your posts OP but not the whole thread. I admire your courage in standing up for your children in a way that your MIL couldn't or wouldn't.

On a practical level you can get a form of authority on the Gov.UK website for HMRC so that your DH can discuss the NI issue. It's called a TC684 I think.

FortniteBoysMum · 09/06/2022 23:25

Surely she contests the will as his legal wife and child her and your husband have a valid claim. If he wants the money going to his other woman then he should divorce his legal wife which gives her half. Otherwise surely the fact she is legally his wife makes her next of kin. See a solicitor.

Lillonely · 09/06/2022 23:30

FortniteBoysMum · 09/06/2022 23:25

Surely she contests the will as his legal wife and child her and your husband have a valid claim. If he wants the money going to his other woman then he should divorce his legal wife which gives her half. Otherwise surely the fact she is legally his wife makes her next of kin. See a solicitor.

We spoke to a solicitor about this and as SMIL is moving assets into her name it’s going to be tricky, (he’ll most likely live at least another 7 years, at least) then there are just fewer assets to claim or contest over.

DH would have to get POA over MIL (which he should anyway as she can’t deal with financial stuff) but there might be a decent case, but the money he’s given her as been all cash in hand so there’s no real paper trail and SMIL doesn’t know about it. Then there is the cost, we’d have to pay that and atm it’s prohibitive

OP posts:
Jofergo · 09/06/2022 23:35

Not seen this mentioned on the thread already.

Can you claim home responsibility for MIL for the time your husband was a child which will give her some years of NI?

www.gov.uk/home-responsibilities-protection-hrp

Might reduce the cost of topping up her NI.

I"ve seen your other thread. I think she should go to work - but I come from a family of grafters with most of the women having done menial work at some point to subsidise family life so the idea of sitting on your arse waiting for someone else to pay is anathema to me.

Lillonely · 09/06/2022 23:39

Jofergo · 09/06/2022 23:35

Not seen this mentioned on the thread already.

Can you claim home responsibility for MIL for the time your husband was a child which will give her some years of NI?

www.gov.uk/home-responsibilities-protection-hrp

Might reduce the cost of topping up her NI.

I"ve seen your other thread. I think she should go to work - but I come from a family of grafters with most of the women having done menial work at some point to subsidise family life so the idea of sitting on your arse waiting for someone else to pay is anathema to me.

Not heard of that before, I’ll look into it! Thanks for the suggestion, appreciate it :)

OP posts:
Genevieva · 10/06/2022 00:44

Too many pages to read everything. Ask on legal, but my understanding is that, although ordinarily you can leave your estate to whomever you wish, there may be a loophole you can use when your FiL dies. He is your MiL's legal husband and he is financially supporting her. You can therefore easily challenge the will for not providing her with only going financial support. There is recent caselaw in which a court has overturned a will to include provision for a dependent, who would otherwise become a burden on the state. She could get a percentage of his assets and a share of his pension. Not something to bring up now, but something to keep up your sleeve if needed.

Peach27 · 10/06/2022 02:58

Just as a thought you need to be really certain he’s legally married to her. There’s been a fair few cases of Muslim women who got religiously married but not legally married weren’t aware then had very little rights after separation or partners death. If she got married here but only did the nikah not a civil ceremony she’s not legally married. Also I’m aware there’s sharia courts in parts of the uk with no legal weighting but culturally recognised. Would they be able to resolve the situation or appeal to FIL’s religious responsibility? Also be aware when ful dies DH could challenge the will for reasonable financial provision and he’s got a good chance of getting something but maybe not the same as his half siblings

Peach27 · 10/06/2022 03:08

Sorry just seen your stuff about sharia councils being worse than useless ignore that bit

Ydgkordh · 10/06/2022 04:02

Sorry if someone has already suggested this but can she not take out a life insurance policy on fil?

Fraaahnces · 10/06/2022 05:07

@Ydgkordh - the FIL has been diagnosed with a chronic and/or life-limiting illness. No life insurance company would touch that with a barge pole. Also, if she did and didn’t declare his illness, then she would be sued.

1999mumma · 10/06/2022 08:18

I sympathise, but almost 1 million women in midlife have left the workforce because of mental and physical problems associated with menopause; that aren’t always obvious to others. 80 percent of women in midlife don’t have enough testosterone; and Mps in government yesterday met to discuss trying to improve access to hrt and start tests involving testosterone. Midlife women might appear to not have any physical problems, but 80 percent could be dealing with exhaustion and lack of motivation because of problems with reducing hormones. This is in response to the person who said that loads of older women appear not to work who seemed ok. I have a lot of physical and mental health problems because of menopause, but I could put on a good face to you for 20 minutes; you wouldn’t see me collapsing with exhaustion after a short walk or crying into my coffee again every morning. I just think it needs to be understood that women in midlife; can have a lot of hidden problems; that might make it difficult for them to work.

I feel bad for you regarding your mil though; it should be her husbands problem; not yours; so seek a solicitors advice. Also she might need to see a doctor at this age; as 80 percent will need help with menopause symptoms, that will be impacting ability to work.

UniversalAunt · 10/06/2022 09:34

‘…so even if UK law doesn’t perceive them as legally married.’

UK law is not a matter of perception, it is a matter of fact.

We are all subject to the laws of the land, wherever that may be & whatever citizen status we may have.

UniversalAunt · 10/06/2022 09:48

‘Just as a thought you need to be really certain he’s legally married to her.’

Good point.
I suggest that you cut through the chaos & confusion by getting a copy of the UK marriage certificate. You can do search the indices for the marriage details & order a copy of the certificate online. Takes minutes to do this & you’ll soon have a copy of the document as confirmation.

www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificatewww.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

This will confirm her legally married status either in the unlikely event of divorce or challenging the will when the time comes. Also make sure that DH or you find & keep records of the financial support FiL gives her as proof of financial dependency. You are right that challenging a will is costly & time consuming, so it’s not an easy matter to rely upon & for the sake of you & your family, you & DH need to sort things out yo out yourselves first.

If the ILs are not legally married here, then I echo the previous suggestions made that you or your DH refer MiL into the faith based pastoral care at the local temple/mosque, & if no help there then go to Adult Social Services as she is highly vulnerable.

Although, MiL will not have made the NI contributions to get a UK pension, she will qualify for some benefits as she has such low income.

Wheresmywoolyjumpers · 10/06/2022 11:00

Read the whole thread and my heart goes out to you and especially your DH who has been abused. A previous OP said perhaps if your husband would find it too hard to cut her off, he could tell her how much he is prepared to give her each month, be it £5 or hundreds, and then tell her what her options are but make clear that if she does not do anything he will not be able to support her. Early deprivation does not excuse acting like a jerk now.

ApplesandBunions · 10/06/2022 11:22

Peach27 · 10/06/2022 02:58

Just as a thought you need to be really certain he’s legally married to her. There’s been a fair few cases of Muslim women who got religiously married but not legally married weren’t aware then had very little rights after separation or partners death. If she got married here but only did the nikah not a civil ceremony she’s not legally married. Also I’m aware there’s sharia courts in parts of the uk with no legal weighting but culturally recognised. Would they be able to resolve the situation or appeal to FIL’s religious responsibility? Also be aware when ful dies DH could challenge the will for reasonable financial provision and he’s got a good chance of getting something but maybe not the same as his half siblings

I can't see how she'd have got a visa and then Indefinite Leave to Remain with this timeframe without being legally married under UK law, unmarried partner visas are only 20 years or so old. Does no harm to make sure all the paperwork is easily available though.

HotWashCycle · 10/06/2022 11:50

While having a certain amount of sympathy for her because her expectations have not been met, it also angers me a great deal that someone can live here for decades, take all that has been offered by way of healthcare and education for her and her son, help for her to integrate, etc. etc. and have it all ignored and unappreciated, and for her to make no effort to contribute to society. No doubt she has no contacts or communications with anyone outside her own religion and community. There is really no excuse, and I wonder why she moved here.
This doesn't help you, OP, but I think it needs pointing out that being in society is a two way street. Good luck to you and your poor DH. Its such a distressing story.

If she is legally married to FIL (legally according to UK law that is), won't she be entitled to his state pension if she survives him?

woodhill · 10/06/2022 12:00

1999mumma · 10/06/2022 08:18

I sympathise, but almost 1 million women in midlife have left the workforce because of mental and physical problems associated with menopause; that aren’t always obvious to others. 80 percent of women in midlife don’t have enough testosterone; and Mps in government yesterday met to discuss trying to improve access to hrt and start tests involving testosterone. Midlife women might appear to not have any physical problems, but 80 percent could be dealing with exhaustion and lack of motivation because of problems with reducing hormones. This is in response to the person who said that loads of older women appear not to work who seemed ok. I have a lot of physical and mental health problems because of menopause, but I could put on a good face to you for 20 minutes; you wouldn’t see me collapsing with exhaustion after a short walk or crying into my coffee again every morning. I just think it needs to be understood that women in midlife; can have a lot of hidden problems; that might make it difficult for them to work.

I feel bad for you regarding your mil though; it should be her husbands problem; not yours; so seek a solicitors advice. Also she might need to see a doctor at this age; as 80 percent will need help with menopause symptoms, that will be impacting ability to work.

It doesn't sound like she has ever made any attempt to work and has exploited her ds

Fraaahnces · 10/06/2022 12:09

I don’t think I have much to offer in the way of opinions, but this situation is not as uncommon as people seem to think. I have done a lot of work with refugee women who have landed in countries and cultures without their consent or any comprehension of their new reality. Very few have taken advantage of the advantages offered by their new life and it has felt to me that they were deliberately “dumbed down” by their families/social conditioning to promote compliance. They have been conditioned to believe that they should never aspire to be educated at all, and as a result, no hope of ever moving around comfortably or confidently in the western world. On one hand, they can sprout the religious and social dogma that they have been brought up with to justify their own aggressive behaviour towards other women - on the other, you can see that they are so disempowered and “immature” for their age because of their severe trauma, that they try and empower themselves by attempting to enforce the same conditions that they endured upon women that they feel are either socially below them to put them in their place while continuing to perpetuate the behaviours that kept them in that situation. Utterly heartbreaking.
It doesn’t mean that you have to put up with it though. She’s very broken and is insisting that she drag everyone down with her. DH can explain the realities of her situation until he’s blue in the face but she won’t change her trajectory.
Her husband has failed to provide for her or nurture her and their child. He is an abysmal failure according to modern law and his behaviour is hammam. Social conditioning doesn’t give her a voice in that community and unfortunately her safe place was her child. She won’t be modernized and westernized, but she will never go back either.

Dixiechickonhols · 10/06/2022 12:11

I think it sounds like she is legally married (married abroad as a teen to enable her to enter country as a spouse) but definitely worth checking. The confusion arises as Nikah abroad is legally recognised in UK (as they are legally married as per law in Pakistan etc) but Nikah alone here in England isn’t.

Lillonely · 10/06/2022 12:39

UniversalAunt · 10/06/2022 09:34

‘…so even if UK law doesn’t perceive them as legally married.’

UK law is not a matter of perception, it is a matter of fact.

We are all subject to the laws of the land, wherever that may be & whatever citizen status we may have.

Why are people getting fixated on this, it’s a total straw man

it’s irrelevant, it’s not about the law, it’s about the man with basically 2 ongoing relationships, both women consider themselves to be wives and thus entitled to the money, and wife 2 is slowly moving it all into her name that’s the point not the legality. We all know that MIL is the legal wife

OP posts: