Polygamy, first family and financial trouble - need some perspective here

[Lillonely]

Right so I’m going to try and be as a clear as I can be without being massively outing.

DH is from a minority community in the UK. His father has 2 wives. MIL and SMIL. It was some nasty business how it was done, both had no idea. It is not bigamy because only one marriage is legal MIL, so please no bigamy Comments. Polygamy is accepted in DHs community. There is a clear 1st and 2nd family situation. DH grew up in squalor and 2nd family grew up with the best of the best. MIL has never worked a day in her life, (she’s a very simple woman, illiterate no English) she claims she couldn’t work, she doesn’t claim or has never claimed because she woildnt ride the bus to get to English classes and job interviews etc and obviously it was during school time/ working hours so DH couldn’t accompany her. From 16 years old DH worked 3 jobs whilst in school to provide for them. he still went to university and got a degree and started working but due to financial burden was racked in debt. House repairs, bills, her glasses, dents treatment, food, new boiler, bathroom, kitchen you name it, DH paid for it. FIL gave them when DH was a child a £15k auction house, so there were A LOT of repairs needed.

he met me, we married. Prior to marriage he was upfront about his debt, because he was in a v bad place and long story short he had to beg FIL to start covering MIL expenses (to be clear it is now religious and cultural obligation to do so especially in a polygamous marriage). We worked out his finances and he’s still paying his way out of debt nearly 10 years later. I’m from another culture and not to go into it because it’s not strictly relevant here but MIL has been quite unkind to me over the years, she is better now that I have children but it’s worth a mention:

it has come out that FIL has purposely cut MIL and DH out of the will. He probably assets included it’s about 300k. DH told MIL and she said she didn’t care it’s DHs responsibility to pay for her to live, that’s why she had him to take care of her and we should sell our house to take care of her because we shouldnt have bought a house. I don’t know where she thinks our 3 kids are supposed to live. He’s her only child.

FIL has had some health scares lately and with the rising cost of everything we’re both worried about this additional financial burden. She’s paid no NI so has no state pension. She has money but won’t spend that to top up NI because she’s saving it for a religious pilgrimage. We have good jobs and we most certainly do not live beyond our means. We live in the most affordable decent area commutable distance from where we work, but also close enough to her because she had a meltdown when she found out we wanted a house. We also have 3 kids and associated childcare and expenses, a 4 bed house, one car, no pets, we do have savings but it’s for our retirement at probably 80 and for overpayments and rainy day funds. We have good jobs like I said, between 85-90 before tax, but the rises in everything are steep. Mortgage looks like it will be going up by £200 a month (no extra borrowing) childcare has gone up by £7 per child per day, we all know about energy and petrol and inflation. Our annual rises didn’t even touch the sides of how high inflation is. We are fairly comfy and definitely aren’t kitted out in designer attire but I do feel loathed to stop the children having any hobbies or sell our house to cover the extra £5/600 for pcm for MIL cost of living, or basically live from paycheque to paycheque and start the cycle of debt, which is what would happen given the rises, which will keep rising. Even selling the house would be daft because what we paid for a 4 bed would get you a 3 bed now because property prices have risen so much.

FIL is a v unkind man who has treated her and DH like dogshit for years, I do genuinely believe the best outcome would be for MIL to file for divorce and then she’d be entitled to half of his assets, even if she just got 75k, it’s something. But she won’t. She’s also not w particularly nice person in truth, a lot of emotional manipulation and abuse has been used against dh over the years.
i cannot move in with her for my mental health so that’s not an option, even if we got on like a house on fire, it’s a v small house. 2 bed, one a small double and the other a single.

what’s the utopia here? I can’t think straight, how do you work through this situation. She won’t work, won’t claim, won’t divorce him, would spend her money on a pilgrimage rather than cost of living and will have no inheritance, it’s just for DH to figure out. DH has spoken to his M and it’s like banging head against a brick wall and frankly the things she is coming out with are repugnant. Like you can’t afford to take care of me, well you should have thought of that before you bought a house you can’t afford’. It’s making us both stressed and me quite angry because I’d never put this on my kids: I’ve got no issue with helping out someone in need or even helping her out a bit but I think we might go under if we took everything on with no other income.

can anyone suggest anything?

Tried it yesterday and MIL was convinced that FIL will still pay for her… but SMIL is so crafty, she’s literally dried up his only revenue/income so he literally cannot pay for her, all the money for them (SMIL and FIL, their house and kids) will pass through SMIL. He will have no income, literally nothing m. I actually even think there might be a bit of potential safeguarding case with him, in light of his illness, selling his business of 30 years, but that’s not for me to take on. MIL is having none of it

Sorry, not read whole thread, but your MIL and anyone else who refuses to pay NI, claim benefits (if they're entitled to them) yet can save for a religious pilgrimage (Mecca I'm guessing) makes me a bit uncomfortable. I get that it's a generational thing in a lot of cases though.

Having said that, I I did used to work for a solicitor who had Muslim clients who were or seemed a bit thick (the women were basically talked down to).

I would say this. Go to a good family lawyer who can speak the language of where MIL is from. Preferably a woman. Have them set it all out for her what she's entitled to, what she can can't do etc.

I used to work with an Iranian lawyer who was mostly immigration but occasionally he'd work with his Iranian clients if they wanted family law advice (hard because generally lots of them think that just Sharia law and not British law applies and don't know much about their rights in England). Thank god things are improving though in this country re immigrants and their attitude towards law but it does take time.

I haven't read all of the replies so apologies if this has been mentioned a thousand times.

It may be possible to challenge the will on the basis that your MIL is a dependant on her husband. It would be a good idea to post the core issue of FIL's will and MIL's dependency on him for her day to day living expenses on the legal board in order to get some advice from one of the experts over there?

I think you need to remove the thoughts of how mean she was/is to you and around the polygamy too. Focus more on the actual issues as the situation is so messy that it will become distracting.

Your MiL attitude and personality aren't great but it will probably be really difficult to change these how, she barely hard an education and will just not be able to see your perspective.

Most benefit claiming is online now so it be not be half as stressful as it was previously.

I do wonder what a capacity assessment would reveal. Is she truly able to make financial decisions and demonstrate an understanding? So much had been put in place around her I wonder if she might come across as more capable in soon he says that she actual it is. If all the direct debits etc were cancelled could she prioritise organise and pay bills? You msg from she is illiterate so maybe huge financial/maths understanding issues too.

You can check pension NI payments online too if you stay up a gov gateway account for her.

Yeah her behaviour towards me isn’t really the core issue here, it is why I can’t move in with her or her with me though or I’m not too thrilled at the prospect of just selling my house, but it’s not the core issue.

the second marriage/ mistress is relevant insofar as wife #2 is now and has always made sure that DH and his mother get nothing . Recently she’s amped her game in this regard.

DH has called Hmrc to enquire about her NI and she needs to approve him talking on her behalf, she can’t do this as she can’t understand what’s being said, even with DH translating she can’t repeat back her security information. He can’t check online as the gov gateway asks for your UK passport number, she doesn’t have a uk passport

bills wise she’d struggle, she has no bank account and so couldn’t set it up, couldn’t pay the bills because she can’t work a computer or dial a phone or read paper bills, there’s no way she could do any of it. She doesn’t have any diagnosed condition or difficulties but she’s never even gone to primary school so doesn’t even have literacy in her mother tongue. From knowing her though, I do think she has the capacity to learn some of these things but it’s the willingness. She thinks oh I’m old now, it’s too late, why bother. Perhaps there is some sort of capacity assessment that can be done in this instance?

In a way I’d look at it as a good thing that he’s cut her off now while he’s still alive. It’s brought things to a head.
I’d get DH to speak to FIL’s religious leader. They can’t just wash their hands of it if FIL is leaving his wife destitute.
Definitely get legal advice re MIL making Inheritance Act claim. It’s not all about going to court. Negotiation now via Solicitor may make FIL realise it’s not going to be swept under carpet and his Will will be challenged. There’s different payment options not just pay up front for these claims. He may be persuaded to transfer a lump sum now.
Contact Welfare rights service and make an appointment for DH and MIL. Explain scenario her husband has abandoned her and she has no income. Welfare rights in areas with sizeable Muslim population are set up with advisers that will speak her language and will be aware of other cases like this.
I’d also look at what assistance there is for women domestic abuse victims especially from her community. FIL has abused her financially and emotionally.
I’d also look into contact with adult social services she is a vulnerable adult.
If your DH dies tomorrow then she’s destitute.

Does FIL usually pay on set day. Maybe no money arriving will mean she has no option but to engage.
Your husband will need a lot of support. The temptation to just step in must be strong but all it’s doing is delaying the inevitable.
Maybe go through scenarios what will he say if she calls him in tears.

Could you speak to MIL about downsizing her property to free up money for bills?

Also, the immigration status of MIL is vital. Indefinite leave to remain counts for not a lot really from past experience, you say she wouldn't pass citizenship test but I'd look into her becoming a British citizen simply because you have no idea of how immigration laws will proceed in future.

Also, re MIL struggling with bills etc - I think best thing would be for your DH to have POA over her.

It would take forever to get her to learn English, computing etc. But worthwhile seeing what is available in her area for Muslim women (is she Muslim?) - do they have Silver Surfers lessons, could someone buy her a laptop? Does she even socialise much with the women in her community?

All of this is a bit shocking to me, but not surprising. One of my DM's friends is a Sikh woman - in her 70s now and when she came to England from India in 70s spoke English and was educated but didn't know her rights. Luckily her parents were on her side, she works or has just retired (for immigration at an airport) and she made friends with my mum as her sons were at school with my brother. My mum also soon put her right onto what her rights were (her DH was financially abusing her etc) and luckily she got in touch with her parents who intervened to say if her DH wasn't helping out, etc then they'd help her to get a divorce.

There’s nothing to downsize too though that’s the problem, the house is small and not In good Nick, wouldn’t get a 1 bed flat for what her 2 bed is worth.

if she can’t speak English I don’t see how she can pass the citizenship test, and as far as I know the days of fiddling the system to get citizenship are over

Great suggestions @Dixiechickonhols

@GonnaGetGoingReturns she’s got lots of friends in her community, they’re all very like minded though key differences though are they worked in their youth (shops, factories etc) gave up when turned 50 or so as they’ve got 30 or so years working and their husbands are still with them and provide for them. She wouldn’t go to a silver surfers thing or English class or anything. She went to English classes as part of JSA back in the day and she went for 5 years and knows nothing, except hello and bye. I wish o was exaggerating but I’m not, I’ve tried to explain that she’s putting herself in danger as in the event of a fire, crime or medical emergency she can’t call 999 and even muddle through. DH and I tried to teach her the word for fire, help, police, ambulance and a few basics .:: nope. She just doesn’t want to learn

my parents aren’t like this but I’m half Asian and half Arab but it is very very common with the ‘older’ generation of women in the Muslim Asian community. It’s e same generation that tend for be behind forced marriages and consanguineous marriages

Not my area but a quick check seems to suggest 65 and over exempt from citizenship test/English requirements. Plus exemption for physical or mental disability. Definitely get some immigration advice.
I used to live in an east lancs town with sizeable Muslim community and can fully understand how she has managed.

There may well be something to the ‘is she capable of managing alone’ assessment then, this is worth exploring.
shes a few years away from 65 yet, we’ll definitely need someone to look into this, i think there are quite a few local asian immigrants lion solicitors who will be very well versed in women like her

ive done some initial googling and she doesn’t lack mental capacity in the nhs sense, I guess there is a chance she has severe learning difficulties but we don’t know. Based on all the info given, are there other assessments that would prove her to be a vulnerable adult unable to function in day to day life?

i think I need to call cab for some steer here, DH has buried his head in the sand for far too long on this one

I was going to suggest a Shariah council as well. Sorry I’m not muslim but I assume they would rule in her favour in matters of financial support. Especially considering his will and the withdrawal of current support.

the other option which is a nuclear one is to say nope can’t afford to give you any money you will have to go sort out your benefits.

I do feel for you all, this is a horrible situation your FIL has created.

Ah sorry 🙈 I thought if she refuses to get divorced it might help, ok don’t listen to me!

I wouldn't go to your local Shariah council, I have friends who were refused divorce at a local level and then it was granted by the organisation below:-

www.islamic-sharia.org/

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.islamic-sharia.org/&ved=2ahUKEwjp-MSK9Jj4AhVRlFwKHSnAB7wQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3mZ4ynuyL_ARNSsrA1XfW6

They can determine from an Islamic prospective how much each wife is entitled to for living expenses according to Shariah and it would be very difficult for smil/fil to go against any decisions or ruling, advice when they are the top Islamic scholars in the country.

She doesn’t have any diagnosed condition or difficulties but she’s never even gone to primary school so doesn’t even have literacy in her mother tongue. From knowing her though, I do think she has the capacity to learn some of these things but it’s the willingness. She thinks oh I’m old now, it’s too late, why bother. Perhaps there is some sort of capacity assessment that can be done in this instance?

Unlikely on the face of it. To lack capacity (and enable you to have an active power of attorney) you'd have to establish that:

1. She has a disorder of the mind or brain
2. That that disorder renders her unable to absorb information, weigh it up and make a decision, and communicate that decision.

The presumption is that capacity is there and there's a responsibility to overcome communication barriers. So the fact that she would need a translator, and need any documents read out, wouldn't undermine her capacity.

She's entitled to make poor decisions, like making no effort to learn English, and refusing to engage in any way, if she wants.

On the basis of everything you've said, I think this one is a non-starter.

It’s not enforceable though, can say yeah yeah I’ll give her some money and that’s it.

there is only one sharia coucil in the UK that has a woman on it and it’s bham central mosque. a friend of a friend went to an imam to basically get her husband to stop being a twat. The man was a taxi driver and had fairs paid in sexual favours once and gave her an std, had debt collectors banging their door down which traumatised her their young son, was taking drugs, gambling, a school mum confronted this woman and said your husband has been sexually harassing me and trying to proposition me, been stealing money from her, took out cards in her name and the best one, she woke up one morning and he’d sold her car and kept the cash, the car was literally gone off the drive, it was a merc. She went to the imam and yes the imam said this is all haram and reminded him his responsibilities but no talk of this being abuse and disgusting behaviour, the resolution was given her £50 a week and the wife to be patient and turn toward Allah but reminded her that she couldn’t refuse sex with him because that’s a sin even in light of the std

these institutions it’s the men in control and they want to keep it that way, no interest in giving women their Islamic and legal rights.

I fear you’re right, I looked on the nhs England screening tool for capacity and she has it. Even a vulnerable adult by the looks of it is shakey